Pharmacy dispute

Joey the lips

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would it possible to discuss this debacle in this forum?
It concerns Irish politics and the Irish economy after all.

Here's my view based on the latest news that the IPU are advising their members to go back to work.

Harney as done well. I don't think the IPU had a leg to stand on once the:
1. Public realised many were in breach of contract
2. Public realised boots weren't closing.
3. Injunctions came from the courts.

All the IPU / Pharmacists did was:
1. Alienate customers.
2. Play into their competitors hands.

The entire industry needs reform. I would hope we'll pay manufacturers the same as other EU countries and prescribe more generics now.

Anyway, I think Harney has shown the other Ministers an example of how to take on a vested interest and put the country first. We need more tough decisions to get this country out of this flipping recession.

Your comments...

+1 Never liked harney's privatisation plans but give her credit her! On generics its interesting that many political parties low down the food chain like the SWP and Sinn fein and the greens have been calling for generics for years and we are starting to cop on.

Tim Robbins

Joey the lips wrote: »

+1 Never liked harney's privatisation plans but give her credit her! On generics its interesting that many political parties low down the food chain like the SWP and Sinn fein and the greens have been calling for generics for years and we are starting to cop on.

I'd also like to see some ethical legislation in that pharmacutical companies aren't allowed to give gifts to Doctors or consultants.

The entire medical industry is corrupt. This is just one tiny aspect Harney has managed to win. It's important that she gets support for it so she can take on the next vested interest group. I can't see any of the other muppets doing it.

Prime Mover

Tim Robbins wrote: »

These are all valid but separate issues. You are using the same spin tactic from the IPU conflating separate issues and then calling Harney nasty adjectives.

If you read my post again there is no abuse towards Harney. Similarly I am not a pharmacist following an IPU argument. I actually used to think Harney would do a good job in Health but I've changed my mind over the last few years.

My point is that the high cost of drugs in Ireland is due to multiple players and that this should have been sorted out in more a coordinated way. If you do these things properly there is less scope for disputes and legal challenges than by bulldozing into the situation with badly planned actions. Think of how much money has been wasted on lawyers, losing High Court actions last year, PR consultants to spin this and the set up costs of these temporary pharmacies. Probably enough to pay for that cervical cancer vaccine. I think that by hiding behind Competition legislation, the minister has missed an opportunity to negotiate a better structure for pharmacist reimbursement from the HSE that would enhance primary care.

Prime Mover

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd also like to see some ethical legislation in that pharmacutical companies aren't allowed to give gifts to Doctors or consultants.

There is some legislation in place for this....

THE MEDICAL PREPARATIONS (ADVERTISING) REGULATIONS, 1993.

12. (1) A person promoting a medical preparation shall not supply, offer or promise to a health professional any gifts, pecuniary advantages, or benefits in kind, unless they are inexpensive and relevant to the practice of medicine or pharmacy.

Tim Robbins

Prime Mover wrote: »

I
My point is that the high cost of drugs in Ireland is due to multiple players and that this should have been sorted out in more a coordinated way. If you do these things properly there is less scope for disputes and legal challenges than by bulldozing into the situation with badly planned actions. Think of how much money has been wasted on lawyers, losing High Court actions last year, PR consultants to spin this and the set up costs of these temporary pharmacies. Probably enough to pay for that cervical cancer vaccine. I think that by hiding behind Competition legislation, the minister has missed an opportunity to negotiate a better structure for pharmacist reimbursement from the HSE that would enhance primary care.

You're correct about the point of cost in drugs this is a "valid but separate" issue as I said that in my last post to you.

The reason why it's separate is because it's a battle with a separate vested interest group i.e. the drug manufacturers not the IPU.

Part of the IPU's spin has being to try to deflect criticism from their vested interested group and put it onto another.

They both need to be dealt with. To my knowledge Harney has saved the tax payer 133 million on this one and hopefully she'll save us more taking on the cost of drugs as you rightly point out. However, it's important we support she's the only minister with the balls to take vested groups on.

Go Harney.

Tim Robbins

Prime Mover wrote: »

There is some legislation in place for this....

THE MEDICAL PREPARATIONS (ADVERTISING) REGULATIONS, 1993.

12. (1) A person promoting a medical preparation shall not supply, offer or promise to a health professional any gifts, pecuniary advantages, or benefits in kind, unless they are inexpensive and relevant to the practice of medicine or pharmacy.

Very interesting. I think that's been violated. What's your own thoughts?

Hangsangwich

SeaFields wrote: »

I think where pharmacists will be hit badly is in the rural areas. They would have an elderly customer base there and I imagine that a lot of their income must come from medical card dispensing. Such pharmacies are not going to be making money from other usual stuff in a chemist i.e. the profit Boots make from their own brand items.

In those rural areas they are providing a valuable community service but the way they went about this protest I think many of their customers will stay away. Locking up shop in isolated towns and villages was business suicide and downright disrespectful to their customers who I believe must have been using their service for years..

You are wrong in your assertion. The medical card payment scheme is not being affected. It is the drugs payment scheme mark-ups which are being cut.

Prime Mover

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The reason why it's separate is because it's a battle with a separate vested interest group i.e. the drug manufacturers not the IPU.

I see what you mean. I am just coming at it from a blank slate perspective. For example, if you have pharmacist margins as a % of factory price then logically if that price falls then the amount of money to the pharmacist falls too, so you build that into the new agreement. I think agreeing a completely different fee structure this time would have been better. I am not a big fan of the government using Competition legislation to avoid negotiating, I think it's a cop out and not what the legislation was designed for.

I think most people would agree with you that cuts need to be made across the board. The reason most healthcare workers have such animosity towards her though is that they feel that she excessively targets the professional sector over the corporate sector. For example there have been no efforts to trim the HSE, we still pay high pharma prices, she seems to be besotted with private hospitals whist A&E is a national disgrace etc.

Prime Mover

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Very interesting. I think that's been violated. What's your own thoughts?

To be fair I have no experience of it being violated or any anecdotal evidence that it has.

SeaFields

Hangsangwich wrote: »

You are wrong in your assertion. The medical card payment scheme is not being affected. It is the drugs payment scheme mark-ups which are being cut.

I don't think I am. I believe the money pharmacists got for dispensing prescriptions to customers with medical cards was cut under the new plans.

Tim Robbins

Prime Mover wrote: »

I am not a big fan of the government using Competition legislation to avoid negotiating, I think it's a cop out and not what the legislation was designed for.

I think it's indicative of the lack of competition in this industry.

I think most people would agree with you that cuts need to be made across the board. The reason most healthcare workers have such animosity towards her though is that they feel that she excessively targets the professional sector over the corporate sector. For example there have been no efforts to trim the HSE, we still pay high pharma prices, she seems to be besotted with private hospitals whist A&E is a national disgrace etc.

Well she has to start somewhere. But I appreciate where you are coming from.

EastWallGirl

Mary Harney had ample opportunity to fix the HSE, the pen pushing behind the scenes folks that were promised their jobs when the boards merged.

Instead she goes after the nurses, doctors and pharmacists like they are some sort of overpaid bogeyman, when they are front line services who do work hard and she is hoping that our jealousy and tall poppy syndrome will allow us to ignore the changes she could of made such as Prime Mover noted.

The agreement she is changing was made by the government in the first place, she is not that brilliant she is just correcting a mistake that previous ministers made.

The fact is she wants a privatised health model and her husband is a lobbyist to that end, the conflict of interest is unbelievable.

While the HSE and the governemnt set the example of pigs in the trough why should the rest of us (including front line medical, education, police staff) wear the hair shirt and our family memmebers are sitting on trolleys.

I am sure the agreement that the pharmacists have was overly generous, but consecutive governments have rolled over to Everyone in the last 10 years and tried to win votes. The government does not have naegotiating skills and only knows boom or bust.

She cannot sit there while she is giving away land to private health corporations and not fix the HSE pen pushers and blame every one else for the overspend.

noodler

I just checked out the thread over at the Biology and Medicine forum and I canno believe the bias in moderating as some have already pointed out.

Posts are edited under the guise of being inflammatory if they side with Harney and the HSE, people are threatened with bans.

Disgraceful stuff.

paddyland

I cannot believe this thread full of simpering praise of this horrendous woman. Irish people really are like sheep, to be sold the first line of spin that comes their way. No wonder we let ten years of corrupt FF and PD government destroy this country, and we'd let them again tomorrow.

The amount of money that the pharmacists can be held accountable to in terms of overcharging or operating a cartel, or whatever, is in the HALPENNY place compared to what Minister Harney can be held accountable for due to shameless promotion of private sector interests, HER OWN vested interests through the business interests of her husband, and the giving away of state money and state land to profiteers over the whole term of existence of the PDs.

Mary Harney has vested interests in the medical industry, and so is compromised.

Noel Dempsey has vested interests in the road tolling industry, and so is compromised.

Brian Cowen has vested interests in the development sector, and so is compromised.

They are all compromised, all wallowing in a pig trough of deceit and abuse of taxpayers money on a scale never known in the history of the state, even in Haughey's time. Worse, now that the golden cow has stopped providing milk and honey, they are shamelessly spinning half truths and terror, to glean more and more taxpayer's money from a shell shocked population. Not to get this country out of a hole. But to continue to fund the aggressive vested interests of their own people at the same rate that the 'celtic tiger' so effortlessly facilitated.

You lot are being conned, left right and centre. The money involved in the pharmacy dispute is PIDDLING on the scale of what Harney abuses. It's a massive con, a spin on a grand scale, to clean the image of a discredited minister. The great lady on a white charger, protecting the interests of the little people. My arse she is.

Tim Robbins

noodler wrote: »

I just checked out the thread over at the Biology and Medicine forum and I canno believe the bias in moderating as some have already pointed out.

Posts are edited under the guise of being inflammatory if they side with Harney and the HSE, people are threatened with bans.

Disgraceful stuff.

I have been banned from the forum. I have had several posts edited out making it look like I said something highly offensive when I was just arguing against the IPU.

Yes I admit I don't know every single nitty gritty of the issues (no - one does) and one or two of my posts may have been simplistic. I still know a good bit and have a right to debate and discuss surely?

I am very interested in this dispute. Like a lot of people, I have long term illnesses and paid a fortune for medication over the years. I also sick of the way this country is been run by vested interest groups.

noodler

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I have been banned from the forum. I have had several posts edited out making it look like I said something highly offensive when I was just arguing against the IPU.

Yes I admit I don't know every single nitty gritty of the issues (no - one does) and one or two of my posts may have been simplistic. I still know a good bit and have a right to debate and discuss surely?

I am very interested in this dispute. Like a lot of people, I have long term illnesses and paid a fortune for medication over the years. I also sick of the way this country is been run by vested interest groups.

I have just been banned for making the point that a disproportionate number of anti-pharamacy post have been edited etc.
Banned for two weeks now - amazingly the moderator used the blanket term trolling to help justify the ban.

Joey the lips

paddyland wrote: »

I cannot believe this thread full of simpering praise of this horrendous woman. Irish people really are like sheep, to be sold the first line of spin that comes their way. No wonder we let ten years of corrupt FF and PD government destroy this country, and we'd let them again tomorrow.
.

Just hold your horses there mate. I never said such a thing. I infact have no time for her. But say what you want the pharmacists have not defended there actions in such a way that I see them as right and Mary harney has stood against them.

I have the right to give her credit for that.

SeaFields

paddyland wrote: »

I cannot believe this thread full of simpering praise of this horrendous woman.

I think most people here find it admirable that the wishes of a large, profitable industry were ignored and Harney went ahead and cut their payments. Its something that this government don't exactly have a reputation of doing.

sceptre

noodler wrote: »

I just checked out the thread over at the Biology and Medicine forum and I canno believe the bias in moderating as some have already pointed out.

Posts are edited under the guise of being inflammatory if they side with Harney and the HSE, people are threatened with bans.

Disgraceful stuff.

You've got the option of making a complaint via the Help Desk or by PM with the moderators of the other forum.

Don't make complaints in this forum about another one - it's not part of the remit of this forum. That's part of the reason the Help Desk exists.

dvpower

Prime Mover wrote: »

To be fair I have no experience of it being violated or any anecdotal evidence that it has.

It's all about lavish industry events where doctors are pushed drugs.
Brendan Drumm has recently been reported as looking for some changes to the rules.

Springmaus

astrofool wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you could drop the word "Bus driver" instead of "Pharmacist" into the above, and the responsibility and dealing with the underclasses would still hold true.

I never said 'underclasses' - I hate that word. I talked about how pharmacists provide drugs to the public and this leaves them open to difficulty (including threats) from addicts of non-prescription, prescription and illegal drugs (from any class, as I pointed out). If people had a desperate physical craving for buses the situation would be relatively comparable, yes. But this was just meant as one example of extra professional responsibility that pharmacists hold.

A lot of people working with the public face threats - I thought it was obvious that that wasn't the crux of my argument about why pharmacists deserve a decent salary. I presumed that people had a basic knowledge of the work that pharmacists do (e.g. which requires up-to-date expert knowledge of medicines, providing advice re minor ailments, dicussing treatments with GPs and consultants over the phone to ensure safe dispensing etc. etc. etc.).

Unfortunately, some people seem to have an extremely bitter attitude towards pharmacists and as a result they're just blatantly insulting them. Yes, it's not pleasant that you (I'm speaking to noone in particular here) had to pay 6 euro for a packet of tablets that are 3 euro in Spain (once again, there are reasons for this) but this doesn't mean that we should all consequently assume that pharmacists' work is directly comparable to a bus driver/taxi driver/shop assistant. I think that if people were honest with themselves they'd realise that. If I thought accountants were overpaid I could easily say 'Sure all they do is sit around playing with calculators. A primary school kid could do that'. That would be a very silly and ignorant thing to say, right? Likewise, I personally hate paying 70 euro to get a clean and polish from my dentist that takes under 5 minutes. But I would never suggest that he has the same professional knowledge, responsibility, expertise etc. as someone who mops the floor clean.

astrofool

And my point was that other jobs have much more of an exposure (to the druggies) and have as much responsibility with people's lives, yet aren't paid on the same scales as pharmacists because their industry didn't exist within a bubble.

Jip

And paddyland, what are your particular vested interests, sounds to me as if you're involved in the pharmacy trade yourself. Otherwise you have just insulted everyone in this thread by telling them all that they cannot come to a sensible opinion on the outcome themselves.

Flan45

I think most people here find it admirable that the wishes of a large, profitable industry were ignored and Harney went ahead and cut their payments. Its something that this government don't exactly have a reputation of doing

I'd second that, I also don't think anyone believes that this has solved everything but it is a start. Harney has been criticised and rightly so down the years, but on this one occasion I have to commend her.

EastWallGirl

Can you at least be accurate and change the title to

Mary Harney Love In thread.

She will not be happy until she has privatised it completley like it has been in the USA. Then where will you be with your long term illness???

Due to her conflict of interest nothing she does can be trusted or believed.

Flan45

I don't think there's any love in here, while i agree with her in this instance her time as minister for health has been a disaster. Given the difficulties involved though I don't see any future minister faring any better unfortunately.

noodler

Its worth noting history judges these types of events on how the government stuck to their guns.

irish_bob

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Can you at least be accurate and change the title to

Mary Harney Love In thread.

She will not be happy until she has privatised it completley like it has been in the USA. Then where will you be with your long term illness???

Due to her conflict of interest nothing she does can be trusted or believed.

considering the level of wellfare we have in this country , thier is no reason that everyone cant afford health insurance , mine costs 700 a year with quinn , for a married couple with four kids , its about 2500 and thier is a substantial tax write off , thats less than 50 quid a week , most smokers spend that each week on fags , with a private health service , their would be no need to hold onto surplus to requirement pen pushers as thier would be no politican relying on votes to keep them in thier job , thanks to the media in this country , people have been conditioned into thinkin that the term PRIVATE HEALTH is an evil think , that it means the profit motive is at play , personaly id trust a profit motive business ahead of a bottomless state stomach every time

Prime Mover

irish_bob wrote: »

considering the level of wellfare we have in this country , thier is no reason that everyone cant afford health insurance , mine costs 700 a year with quinn , for a married couple with four kids , its about 2500 and thier is a substantial tax write off , thats less than 50 quid a week , most smokers spend that each week on fags , with a private health service , their would be no need to hold onto surplus to requirement pen pushers as thier would be no politican relying on votes to keep them in thier job , thanks to the media in this country , people have been conditioned into thinkin that the term PRIVATE HEALTH is an evil think , that it means the profit motive is at play , personaly id trust a profit motive business ahead of a bottomless state stomach every time

Fine Gael has proposed a model based on the Dutch system and I think this is a good reason to vote them in at the next election. The US system of private health insurance has been very beneficial for advancing high-tech medicine but has been a disaster for low income citizens. On the other hand, the UK is struggling with the NHS. The Dutch system seems like a good balance.

By the way I'm happy for someone to tell me why I'm wrong and debate this out. Perhaps this deserves another thread.

shevv

i've just read as much of these messages as is humanely possible before getting physically sick! All you sudden Mary Harney supporters coming out of the woodwork has made me realise that the understanding of the Pharmacists' dispute is practically null. To go on and on about the amount of money they earn is missing the point - first of all the pharmacISTS were not fighting for survival but the pharmacIES - if the smaller pharmacies have to close because they have been told to open up and agree to Madam Harney's ridiculous figures then how many of you will complain when that local pharmacy no longer exists?? Please don't tell me that most of the population really believe that pharmacISTS were putting their patients at risk because they were being greedy? Words fail me! The pharmicIES should have stayed out longer for sure until Harney realised that she had to sit down and talk. The amount of abuse that a friend of mine with his own pharmACY has had to take since Monday is unfair to say the least.

If you're all so much into backing Harney then i await the day that she is given permission to make it impossible for your employer to continue trading and you lose your job - oh and by the way, she will announce it first through the media and won't enter into talks with your employer!

Come on Irish people - you think Harney got at the rich and is now liked by the masses - get the facts right before you start voting for a load of Harneys to rule the world :mad::mad::mad::mad: