Why are Arsenal being written off?

Dont be at yourself

In all the pre-season build-up, nobody seems to be talking about Arsenal as contenders - with many saying they'll be lucky to even finish fourth, ahead of Man City, Villa or Everton.

Why?

Their squad is obviously lacking in a few areas - they could do with a central defender and possibly a central midfielder, but Chelsea, Liverpool and United aren't exactly bulletproof.

At the business end of the pitch, they have no equals. Van Persie, Arshavin, Eduardo, Rosicky, Walcott, Bentdner and Nasri should get a tonne of goals between them, and then they have Fabregas to back them up.

Wenger's no slouch either, and with the rest of the big four regressing, another year of experience and maturity, coupled with players coming back from injury, might just stand them in their stead.

Bandit12

Nobody's "writing them off imo" but Liverpool,Chelsea,Utd are all better teams and Man City and prob Everton are on a par with them. I think they will do well to finish in the top 3 this season.

--amadeus--

A lack of physical presence throughout the team. No leadership and a feeling that they can be intimidated out of games. A feeling that it's a lot like Liverpool in the 90s - pretty passing but frequently without an end product. A lack of real killer instinct and aggression. They have also sold 2 fairly big names and have (again) been pretty quiet on teh transfer front so I wouldn't agree that the team hasn't regressed.

The Man City situation is so volatile you wouldn't know if they will be potential winners or mid table fodder. Everton are a good, strong team who will push harder this season. Villa will miss Barry but you'd be surprised if they faded as badly in teh second half of this season.

The gap between teh "big 4" and teh rest is smaller than it's been for a while and Arsenal look the weakest of them and so it's logical they are the team to be questioned.

SlickRic

nobody should be writing them off completely.

but the same problems they've had for the last 5 seasons, on paper, seem to still be there.

vermaelen's unproven (but granted, could be a star). denilson isn't up to the right standard yet. if cesc gets injured, they're so fúcked it hurts. eduardo can't be trusted to complete a season yet without getting injured.

rosicky? :rolleyes:

there just isn't enough depth on paper. if everyone stays fit for a whole season, they could do anything. but it's not likely. they need a bit of insurance.

ask arsenal fans. they'll tell you better than I will.

Mr Alan

not writing them off either, but they have also sold their most effective striker, and most effective defender.

Headshot

Bandit12 wrote: »

Nobody's "writing them off imo" but Liverpool,Chelsea,Utd are all better teams and Man City and prob Everton are on a par with them. I think they will do well to finish in the top 3 this season.

so your saying everton and city are on par with arsenal, im stunned by that. Someone doesnt know the arsenal team,arsenal hav the best attack in the league and if they keep players fit, they could be in with a chance

jesus_thats_gre

In terms of attacking talent, they probably have the best players of any team in the league.
Their full backs are as good as any other team in the league.
Their centre backs are a good distance away from the quality possessed by Liverpool, Chelsea or United.
They do not have an aggresive, ball winning midfielder to break down the oppositions attacks..

The first two points mean that they will score loads of goals. The second two points mean that they will concede loads of goals.

If someone steps up or they sign a good defensive midfielder, they would defo mount a genuine challenge. Neither look likely though. As such, I suspect they will struggle to keep up with Chelsea, United and Liverpool.

flahavaj

I don't think they;ll win the league, but Arshavin is gonna be immense. Can't wait to watch him in full flight.

eddiehead

Also, for the last few years I've been thinking the same thing about Arsenal "I reckon Wengers youth policy could pay off this year", it never has, I don't see why this year should be any different. We all know what they need to be contenders but it doesn't look like it's gona happen.

Iago

I'd be shocked if the top 4 aren't the same as last year. Of those teams I think Arsenal are in the worst position but...

Their young players have another year of experience under their belts, if Van Persie stays fit he'll score as many, and probably more, goals than Adebayor did last season. I don't think they're particularly bad at the back, and they're breathtaking going forward.

I think they'll do well, but they've no depth to the squad whatsoever. Just a couple of injuries will see them struggling at any point in the season.

Eire-Dearg

It's dangerous to believe Arsenal won't finish in the Top 4 - but they're considerably weak in places. If RVP gets injured, Eduardo and Bendter won't score enough goals. They could end up relying on Arshavin and Fabregas to pull it out of the bag. They lack a real leader - their captain is Almunia. Gallas has showed in the past his lack of leadership skills - and the they've sold their most effective centre half to Man City. They've sold their number one scorer of goals since Henry left to City, and haven't brought in anyone. Arsenal's loss is City's gain - and in my opinion City will pip them for fourth.

They're also missing a centre midfielder in the Patrick Vieira mould - where Liverpool have someone like Masch, United Anderson and Carrick, Chelsea Essien and Mikel, and City Barry and De Jong.

They've plenty of flair elsewhere, but their missing the necessitys.

That_Guy

Headshot wrote: »

so your saying everton and city are on par with arsenal, im stunned by that. Someone doesnt know the arsenal team,arsenal hav the best attack in the league and if they keep players fit, they could be in with a chance

If they have the best attack in the league as you say then surely they would have finished higher than fourth last season.

I personally think they will struggle this season.

And I don't believe that they have the best attack in the league at all. I believe they play some of the best football in the league but their end product is something to be questionable.

They're a quick side no doubt about it but they need to take a different approach other than trying to pass the ball into the net.

jesus_thats_gre

That_Guy wrote: »

If they have the best attack in the league

I am sure if you think about that a big more, you will see why the logic is flawed.

You could technically score the most goals and concede the least and still loose the league.

Dont be at yourself

They're also missing a centre midfielder in the Patrick Vieira mould - where Liverpool have someone like Masch, United Anderson and Carrick, Chelsea Essien and Mikel, and City Barry and De Jong.

Liverpool have just lost Alonso, United have obvious problems in the centre and City are a complete unknown. I don't think a midfield of Fabregas coupled with Diaby/Song is any worse than Macherano & Lucas or Carrick & Fletcher.

Adebayour did very little in an Arsenal shirt last year, so it's conceivable that the other strikers will prosper in his absence. He was also the source of some dressing room conflict, so morale may also be boosted.

tred

Liverpools star player last season , when gerard and torres were out, is gone. Uniteds start player last season and before, is gone. Chelsea have not really strengthened yet. Barry was the star for villa last season...now gone. Man city have the players on paper, but its difficult to a buy a team in 2 seasons and expect it to just start working. If Arsenal can keep players fit, and get some luck in the area of injurys, then we can be a challenge to all. But, we need to get by Celtic first for CL, and thats a big enough challenge considering they whipped many big teams up there before. Id give Denilson a break. This might be his season.

Redzer7

That_Guy wrote: »

If they have the best attack in the league as you say then surely they would have finished higher than fourth last season.
.

They Scored 2 less than the champions Manchester United last year,
Without Arshavin for half a season and Adebayor, Van Persie, were injured for a bit, Eduardo out for nearly the whole season and Fabregas with his assists out for 2 months!!! It's the lack of defensive qualitys thats letting us down.

Bandit12

Headshot wrote: »

so your saying everton and city are on par with arsenal, im stunned by that. Someone doesnt know the arsenal team,arsenal hav the best attack in the league and if they keep players fit, they could be in with a chance

Yes, yes i am. Good teams are made up more than good passers of the ball. Arsenal lack leadership,desire to win,a good goalkeeper amongst other things. Depending on if Man City buy a couple of quality defenders i can see Arsenal finishing out of the top four this season and might do anyway's due to Everton.

jesus_thats_gre

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Liverpool have just lost Alonso, United have obvious problems in the centre and City are a complete unknown. I don't think a midfield of Fabregas coupled with Diaby/Song is any worse than Macherano & Lucas or Carrick & Fletcher.

In terms of creativity, the Arsenal pair you list is good enough. It terms of their ability to break down the oppositions move before it even happens, they don't appear to be even at the races. Fabregas isn't really what is being disputed either. It is Diaby, Denilson and Song that are being questioned.

While Alonso leaving is a valid point, you are ignoring that they shelled out 20m on a replacement. Now, it is possible that he won't work out but there is every chance that he will.. Put it this way, if Arsenal went out and shelled out 20m on a defensive type midfielder and he was unproven in the PL, I would immediately consider them genuine contenders.

Carrick and Fletcher may have shortcomings in some aspects of their play but they have proven that they are better than 85% of the opposition in the league.

PHB

I'm not writing them off. I think they are equal threats to Liverpool personally. If Wenger can get them going, they can go on a massive run that few teams have the ability to go on. It's just a question imo of a DM stepping up. With Arshavin though, I think they've got a real chance.

I don't think City have a chance of beating them. They might possibly push them close, but Arsenal will be comfortably safe.

eirebhoy

I think Gallas is a bit underrated. He only played 23 times for Arsenal last season. They conceded 19 goals in those games. In the 15 games he didn't play they conceded 18. So that averages for every 5 games they conceded almost 2 more goals when Gallas didn't play.

Wenger's after spending a reported £10m on Vermaelen, the Ajax captain, who's supposed to very dominant in the air. I wouldn't worry too much about their defence.

They had terrible luck last season with injuries to almost every player.

I have serious doubts over Chelsea under Ancelotti. I can see a lot of draws and dropped points. He's won 1 league title in his managerial career with the likes of Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo, Gattuso, Kaka, Seedorf, a confident Shevchenko, etc. at his disposal. I certainly wouldn't be backing Chelsea for the league.

Man Utd have lost Ronaldo.

Liverpool are a weaker team too purely for having to sell Alonso. Aquiliani's a good player but he won't dominate games anywhere near as much as Fabregas imo.

If Arsenal can avoid another injury crisis they're going to be an awful lot stronger than last season, even after losing a couple of 1st teamers. So I think they'll improve in their 72 points with the winners of the premiership probably hitting the mid 80's. Certainly not the 90 of last year.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

I'm not writing them off. I think they are equal threats to Liverpool personally.

Didn't you think they were a greater threat than Liverpool last year?

I think its fair to say you regularly over-estimate Arsenal & regularly under-estimate Liverpool.

jesus_thats_gre

Mr Alan wrote: »

Didn't you think they were a greater threat than Liverpool last year?

I think its fair to say you regularly over-estimate Arsenal & regularly under-estimate Liverpool.

We are looking back at last season and saying that Liverpool should finish ahead of Arsenal again this season based on performances, results and signings.

He was looking back at the previous season whereby Arsenal appeared to stumble at the final hurdle having played amazingly well for the first 6 months.

If anything, the fact that he still has faith in Arsenal is something to be respected.

JPA

Isn't it obvious that they're not good enough to win the league?
They need a top class defensive midfielder and centre back.
They have no leader except Fabregas and he's 22.
Spend £20-25 million on proven experienced players with good personalities and they could win the league.

eirebhoy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Didn't you think they were a greater threat than Liverpool last year?

Injuries Mr Alan, injuries. Seriously, Arsenal with all their main players fit would have certainly got into the 80's points total last season. Of course every team gets injuries but last season was just crazy for Arsenal.

They've no Toure and Adebayour this season but they have Vermaelen, Arshavin, Gallas, Fabregas, van Persie, Rosicky and Eduardo who all missed a third or more of last season.

Adebayor himself only played 21 games last season and Toure 26. They had no stability with Denilson, the keeper and the 2 full backs the only ones to hit 30 games.

Unearthly

Not got the squad depth and a few of their big players seem injury prone so I don't think they will win it.

but the talk of them dropping out of top 4 is a bit silly imo.

Mr Alan

Eirebhoy, wat about Liverpool with Torres & Gerrard playing more than 13 games together?

purple_hatstand

This is a little like the Michael Owen thread that went round a few weeks back in that it's all about keeping players fit for Arsenal. They need most (if not all) of Arshavin, Walcott, RVP, Fabregas & Eduardo fit and in form for the whole season to stand any kind of chance. They need a proper DM and at least one more really good CB. I'm amazed at Wenger selling Adebayor & Toure to potentially Arsenal's biggest rivals for 4th

Paleface

purple_hatstand wrote: »

I'm amazed at Wenger selling Adebayor & Toure to potentially Arsenal's biggest rivals for 4th

Frankly so was I. Only time will tell if it was a mistake or a shrewd move. Businesswise both transfers were great but to use a Wenger term, "footballistically", the jury is still out!

Loomis

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

...

At the business end of the pitch, they have no equals. Van Persie, Arshavin, Eduardo, Rosicky, Walcott, Bentdner and Nasri should get a tonne of goals between them, and then they have Fabregas to back them up.

...

No equals? You can't be serious, shirley?

The top teams all have players of that quality and better.
Van Persie is a great player when fit. He's missed large parts of the season every year for them. Eduardo is still going to take some time getting back to what he was before the injury. And even then I don't really see how you could label him as someone who has no equal. Rosicky again a great player but is terribly injury prone. He hasn't played for two years and his latest status is another set back. Walcott is still to fulfill his potential really and Bentdner hasn't done a huge amount himself. Is Nasri still injured? Not sure.

The 'no equals' issue aside, they have a few injuries to players so don't even have their full squad. They also lost probably their best defender and the main source of goals for the past two years and not replaced either. United lost Ronaldo but their squad is far more complete than Arsenals. Chelsea have pretty much stayed the way they were last year. Liverpool lost Alonso who I think might be missed a lot this year.

Injuries and selling players who when they had them weren't good enough to win last year. You can't really entirely discount any team of quality but you can hardly say there's an argument why they can win this year when they couldn't last year.

Xavi6

Arsenal have nothing to worry about in terms of finishing in the top four.

If their big players stay fit this season (Fabregas, Gallas, Eduardo ets) then they will push the others pretty hard.

I don't think City, Villa or Everton are a realistic threat to the top 4 this season.

Otis Driftwood

Arsenal this season will be the same as they have been under Wengers tenure,a hard team to play against and a hard team to beat.

Toure is a huge loss,Adeboyor to a lesser extent.

However they have Arshavin.

We only got a cameo from him last year but his potential is plain to see.

I fully expect him and Cesc to grab a crap load of goals between them,I really do.

Anyone writing them off is either foolish or naive.

eirebhoy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Eirebhoy, wat about Liverpool with Torres & Gerrard playing more than 13 games together?

Fair point and if Alonso was happy to stay I'd probably back Liverpool for the league but he's a big loss and I can only see Liverpool being a weaker team without him. Aquilani isn't even the same type of player as Alonso anyway so maybe Benitez will tinker the shape a bit. But they've lost a real dominant playmaker in Alonso.

purple_hatstand

Paleface wrote: »

Frankly so was I. Only time will tell if it was a mistake or a shrewd move. Businesswise both transfers were great but to use a Wenger term, "footballistically", the jury is still out!

Exactly. Wenger will look pretty stupid if Man City are in the last CL spot at Arsenal's expense come next May!

Is he getting the 40-odd million for re-investment in the squad (2 DMs and a CB)? Or is it going against the stadium debts?

Xavi6

purple_hatstand wrote: »

Exactly. Wenger will look pretty stupid if Man City are in the last CL spot at Arsenal's expense come next May!

Won't happen

Paleface

Xavi6 wrote: »

Won't happen

City have the players now just not the manager. Thats the main reason I think they won't finish in the top 4

WillieCocker

You could never write us off.
But for all these years we seemed to certainly have a stronger squad than we do now.
Next season we could be even weaker if we go another trophyless season.

Mr Alan

eirebhoy wrote: »

Fair point and if Alonso was happy to stay I'd probably back Liverpool for the league but he's a big loss and I can only see Liverpool being a weaker team without him. Aquilani isn't even the same type of player as Alonso anyway so maybe Benitez will tinker the shape a bit. But they've lost a real dominant playmaker in Alonso.

and added a far more effective right back in Johnson who will be a huge help in the kind of games Liverpool struggled in last year.

Alonso out, Aquilani & Johnson in, could improve the team as easily as it could weaken it.

jaykay74

Xavi6 wrote: »

I don't think City, Villa or Everton are a realistic threat to the top 4 this season.

IMO City are a realistic threat to the 4th spot. They have spent 2nd only to Madrid and mostly on decent players that will improve on what they had. My biggest question mark is over the ability of Hughes to gel what they have together.

Dont be at yourself

People were saying the same about City last year. Their squad is too imbalanced, and bereft of the absolute world class players that the big four have. There are also question marks about the manager, the mentality and whether the squad can hit the ground running after wholesale changes.

Xavi6

jaykay74 wrote: »

IMO City are a realistic threat to the 4th spot. They have spent 2nd only to Madrid and mostly on decent players that will improve on what they had. My biggest question mark is over the ability of Hughes to gel what they have together.

We are absolutely no threat to the top 4. As much as I hate to admit it, there are too many egos in there for it to be instant success. When we balls up the first few games fingers will be pointed and questions. I guarantee none of that criticism will be self centred.

Bubs101

As a Chelsea fan I certainly expect are biggest challenge to come from Arsenal and at 9-1 I would advise everybody to get on now. Their record with Arshavin is ****ing amazing. Lost one game or something with him. In essence, he's the best new signing you could have gotten. Not to mention Walcott and Eduardo are back and maybe even Rosicky. While Liverpool and Man Utd have gotten worse and we've marginally gotten better with Zhirkov and Pizzaro and Essien back, Arsenal have improved by miles from the team that did so poorly in the first half of last season.

9-1. Ridiculous

Raskolnikov

Bubs101 wrote: »

As a Chelsea fan I certainly expect are biggest challenge to come from Arsenal and at 9-1 I would advise everybody to get on now. Their record with Arshavin is ****ing amazing. Lost one game or something with him. In essence, he's the best new signing you could have gotten. Not to mention Walcott and Eduardo are back and maybe even Rosicky. While Liverpool and Man Utd have gotten worse and we've marginally gotten better with Zhirkov and Pizzaro and Essien back, Arsenal have improved by miles from the team that did so poorly in the first half of last season.

9-1. Ridiculous

Agree with most of that.

Vermaelen and Gallas need to be given a chance at the back. The only issues with Arsenal is that they need a 20+ goal a season striker and a decent backup 'keeper. I think Arsene should get a wheelbarrow over to Madrid and cart van Nistelrooy back to the Emirates.

Raskolnikov

Another thing, Wilshire is going to be a top player, much more so than the infuriating Theo Walcott.

greendom

Bandit12 wrote: »

Yes, yes i am. Good teams are made up more than good passers of the ball. Arsenal lack leadership,desire to win,a good goalkeeper amongst other things. Depending on if Man City buy a couple of quality defenders i can see Arsenal finishing out of the top four this season and might do anyway's due to Everton.

How can a team that won 25 league matches and reached the semis of the champions league last season be lacking a will to win ???

JPA

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Agree with most of that.

Vermaelen and Gallas need to be given a chance at the back. The only issues with Arsenal is that they need a 20+ goal a season striker and a decent backup 'keeper. I think Arsene should get a wheelbarrow over to Madrid and cart van Nistelrooy back to the Emirates.

So that would be putting the horse IN the cart?

Bubs101

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Agree with most of that.

Vermaelen and Gallas need to be given a chance at the back. The only issues with Arsenal is that they need a 20+ goal a season striker and a decent backup 'keeper. I think Arsene should get a wheelbarrow over to Madrid and cart van Nistelrooy back to the Emirates.

In Eduardo they potentially have a 20+ goalscorer if he stays fit. His record is phenomenal

Raskolnikov

Bubs101 wrote: »

In Eduardo they potentially have a 20+ goalscorer if he stays fit. His record is phenomenal

I don't know about that.

From what I've seen (and I've seen less than I'd like to have), Eduardo is really a link-up player. He's technically brilliant and got an eye for a pass, but it remains to be seen whether he can score 20 Premier League goals.

Bubs101

His finishing is what the BBC team were creaming themselves over right before he got injured. Think he'll be top scorer anyway

premierstone

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I don't know about that.

From what I've seen (and I've seen less than I'd like to have), Eduardo is really a link-up player. He's technically brilliant and got an eye for a pass, but it remains to be seen whether he can score 20 Premier League goals.

Not sure why you've come to that conclusion, he's an out an out goal scorer and to all who are saying ''if only he could stay fit'' of ''if he can be trusted to stay fit'' wtf like, he had one injury and never had any issues prior to that

Daemos

I don't think Arsenal have any experienced, quality players. Having sold Adebayor and Toure, they seem very exposed. They are probably the best team in the world for developing young players, but that doesn't make a great team.

Arsese has been critisized for it before, but he needs experienced players. Yes, he is developing for the long-term rathe than short-term, but how long do you really think he'll last if they have another trophieless season?

I don't think that they will be in the running for the title, but at the same time I don't think they'll be ousted from fourth place. I read a great article about City recently in regards to the players they brought in. This isn't Fantasy Football, you can't bring in great players and immediately become a great team. You need time as well.

So I think Arsenal are miles behind the top three, but at the same time they're miles ahead of the rest of the pack.

jesus_thats_gre

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Eduardo is really a link-up player.

I think you might be confusing Eduardo for someone else..