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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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    #62
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Indeed, it's difficult to understand the rationale of the Gardaí in specifying a list which excludes a venerable Webley revolver (which is not much use in a rapid-fire competition in the Olympics:)) but I'm assuming the brief they had was in interpreting the dictat of the Minister in regard to "designed-for" Olympic competitions.
    in all fairness how many of us are going to ever shoot in the olympics ? an absolutely miniscule fraction thats all, the rest will be shooting in club shoots and even if only for reasons of cost ,using pistols like the buckmark and ruger mk2 + 3.


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    #63
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    I Know, I know! But the Minister specified Olympic in the restricted list and continued with this in the legislation.


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    #64
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    You reckon wrong Bunny.

    Moi, wrong :eek:
    Sparks wrote: »
    It's unofficial because it's not finalised. It can still be modified. So feedback would be useful.

    Plenty of feedback has been given by non ISSF groups, wasn't listened to by the looks of it :rolleyes:
    Sparks wrote: »
    But we've got permission to reproduce it here.

    Why "anonymous" source then ?
    Sparks wrote: »
    Somehow I doubt Des had similar permission :)

    Maybe he did ?

    Sparks wrote: »
    Unless you know differently, of course Bunny :)

    I know lots of things ;) you're not the only one with a deep throat contact/s ;)


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    #65
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    I Know, I know! But the Minister specified Olympic in the restricted list and continued with this in the legislation.

    Has anyone ever asked him why he has adopted this attitude?


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    #66
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    Plenty of feedback has been given by non ISSF groups, wasn't listened to by the looks of it :rolleyes:
    Airsoft and paintball would disagree...
    Why "anonymous" source then ?
    Because when you attach a name to something like that, you create the risk that their boss will be embarressed by some tabloid press article.
    Maybe he did ?
    Before the rest of the FCP? After his speech back at the start of the FCP process where it was "we're all in this as one united front lads, no solo runs, no backstabbing, one for all and all for one"?
    (I'm paraphrasing there, you understand, but that's the gist of it).
    I know lots of things ;) you're not the only one with a deep throat contact/s ;)
    Decidedly not, but it seems you don't want to share. Inneundo and rumour and mudslinging, yeah, you've given us that in spades. But where's the useful stuff?


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    #67
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Bunny - I assume that, as the Department of Sports (through the ISC) were paying carding grants to athletes and also contributing to the high-performance coaching (in the case of ICPSA), the Minister didn't want to be seen to be cutting off a potential source of Olympic competitors.

    I think also that press and opposition flag-waving about certain types of pistols (however disengenuous) caused a knee-jerk reaction on his part. The watershed seemed to be when Judge Charleton commented on how people are "entitled to feel alarmed" about the increase in handgun ownership when he sided with a Superintendent's refusal to licence a Glock. Subsequently, the Garda Commissioner's hand-wringing about being "forced" to licence Glock pistols to sports shooters, while at the same time trying to take them out of the hands of criminals, seemed to fix the Minister's mind.


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    #68
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,024 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    fat-tony wrote: »
    r, I'm a pragmatist. Times will change, governments will move on (maybe sooner than we think/hope), and we can continue to work for the return of centre-fire pistol sports:)

    I was 6 when the TCO came in.I was 40 when I got my centrefire pistol liscense.I've been shooting here nigh on 27 years,and in that time,I've seen all the flare ups about people trying to get pistols or decent deer calibre rifles back.It seems it doesnt matter who is in Govt,it never made a bit of difference.FG,FF and combinations of both with other parties.No one wanted to touch this..Even when it was patently obvious that NI was still armed and the IRA and Co were arming from Libya and wannabe Irish nutters in the USA. :mad:
    Apart from election promises,which arent worth the air they are spoken with.:(
    I reckon if this goes the way things go in Ireland.I'll be on my Zimmer frame at 90 before this is tackled again.:(:eek:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #69
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    fat-tony wrote: »
    I Know, I know! But the Minister specified Olympic in the restricted list and continued with this in the legislation.
    i don't see why he didn't just specify .22 rimfire pistols and leave it at that , is his idea to strangle all pistol shooting completely ? and the guards have a hard enough time getting things right as is , specifiying exact models of pistol can only confuse matters further.


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    #70
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    Airsoft and paintball would disagree...

    And that makes the demonising of Ruger MK 2 & 3's and Buckmarks and other .22 pistol ok ? As these (Airsoft and paintball) are not real firearms I don't see what they have to do with anything on this forum.
    Sparks wrote: »
    Because when you attach a name to something like that, you create the risk that their boss will be embarressed by some tabloid press article.

    So we have your word it has come from DOJ, which for the record is fine BUT I wonder why they allowed you to publish it without their bosses approval? Surely their boss might know it's here and their boss may be less than pleased at having to explain to their boss that they have a leak ?
    Sparks wrote: »
    Before the rest of the FCP? After his speech back at the start of the FCP process where it was "we're all in this as one united front lads, no solo runs, no backstabbing, one for all and all for one"?
    (I'm paraphrasing there, you understand, but that's the gist of it).

    Wasn't there for that speech :( Don't know if he stuck to the sentiment or if the others involved did either.
    Sparks wrote: »
    Decidedly not, but it seems you don't want to share.

    I will when the time is right ;) as you have promised to do too :) hope you haven't forgotten ;)
    Sparks wrote: »
    Inneundo and rumour and mudslinging, yeah, you've given us that in spades.

    You know as well as I do that is not true :P just more smoke & mirrors :rolleyes:
    Sparks wrote: »
    But where's the useful stuff?

    I thought the revelation of the list of photos was useful seen as a lot of them are on the new list from the DOJ :( aw well .......


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    #71
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Bunny - I assume that, as the Department of Sports (through the ISC) were paying carding grants to athletes and also contributing to the high-performance coaching (in the case of ICPSA), the Minister didn't want to be seen to be cutting off a potential source of Olympic competitors.

    I think also that press and opposition flag-waving about certain types of pistols (however disengenuous) caused a knee-jerk reaction on his part. The watershed seemed to be when Judge Charleton commented on how people are "entitled to feel alarmed" about the increase in handgun ownership when he sided with a Superintendent's refusal to licence a Glock. Subsequently, the Garda Commissioner's hand-wringing about being "forced" to licence Glock pistols to sports shooters, while at the same time trying to take them out of the hands of criminals, seemed to fix the Minister's mind.

    Fair logic and assumptions but I think I might e-mail him for an answer just so he has a chance to explain to me and other why he thinks any shooting apart from "olympic" shooting is to be frowned upon.

    I will report back as soon as I recieve a reply


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    #72
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    rowa wrote: »
    i don't see why he didn't just specify .22 rimfire pistols and leave it at that , is his idea to strangle all pistol shooting completely ? and the guards have a hard enough time getting things right as is , specifiying exact models of pistol can only confuse matters further.
    Would have been simpler all right:)
    Once the "Olympic" word was put into the legislation there was left a gap any decent lawyer could drive a coach and horses through in a debate as to what was "suitable for" or "designed for". In any case how would any Super determine what was an "Olympic" pistol was, unless the Ballistics Section in the Park produced a list. This they have apparently done.


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    #73
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    .............In any case how would any Super determine what was an "Olympic" pistol was, unless the Ballistics Section in the Park produced a list. This they have apparently done.

    Major "copy" & "paste" job from somewhere it seems :rolleyes:


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    #74
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bunny, what revelation? RRPC and myself posted the list you're talking about last year.

    And how could Des have stuck to that sentiment and write the public letters he's written?

    As to why we've been given this stuff to publish? Well, it sounds arrogant, but this place has become one of the most widely-read information sources for shooting in Ireland. If it shows up here, pretty soon it's reached a lot of shooters. Which is handy when stuff is changing like it is now. So the DoJ are making use of that. And they're not the only government department to do so - other forums on this site have had similar levels of contact from officialdom.


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    #75
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    Major "copy" & "paste" job from somewhere it seems :rolleyes:
    typical bloody irish :(


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    #76
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    Major "copy" & "paste" job from somewhere it seems :rolleyes:
    And would you consider it inappropriate that they would get a list of ISSF-suitable pistols from the website of the ISSF NGB in Ireland? I would hope that they looked in other jurisdictions also. After all, the range regulations were largely sourced from Canada.


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    #77
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    Bunny, what revelation? RRPC and myself posted the list you're talking about last year.

    Agreed. After continously denying there was any kind of list at all for quite a long time :P Will dig up the thread now I have a bit of time to kill ;)
    Sparks wrote: »
    And how could Des have stuck to that sentiment and write the public letters he's written?

    :confused:
    Sparks wrote: »
    As to why we've been given this stuff to publish? Well, it sounds arrogant, but this place has become one of the most widely-read information sources for shooting in Ireland. If it shows up here, pretty soon it's reached a lot of shooters. Which is handy when stuff is changing like it is now. So the DoJ are making use of that. And they're not the only government department to do so - other forums on this site have had similar levels of contact from officialdom.

    Agreed. This is an excellent source of info and a lot of shooters would be lost without it and you more than most make it what it is ;)

    Pity more of the major players in this situation don't use it to get across their viewpoints :P


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    #78
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    And would you consider it inappropriate that they would get a list of ISSF-suitable pistols from the website of the ISSF NGB in Ireland?...........

    Agreed but a lot, dare I say the majority, of pistol shooters are NOT ISSF members though.

    What would the NASPRC members consider appropiate rimfire pistols? Probably Ruger Mark 2 & 3's and the Browning Buckmarks, which according to some of the ISSF members here would be suitable as entry level pistol for ISSF pistol shooting. So why are these not on the list ?


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    #79
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    Agreed. After continously denying there was any kind of list at all for quite a long time :P
    Liar :) You're talking about different lists.
    Will dig up the thread now I have a bit of time to kill ;)
    Here, I'll save you the trouble: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55612757
    :confused:
    It's simple enough - he started preaching unity and then didn't follow through with the idea in his public actions and statements.
    Pity more of the major players in this situation don't use it to get across their viewpoints :P
    I've said that myself on here once or twice!


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    #80
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    Liar :) You're talking about different lists.Here, I'll save you the trouble: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55612757!

    You call me a "Liar" ? :rolleyes: Pot & kettle :P

    I stated that a "list" was submitted to DOJ. Following repeated denials from you and RRPC that no list was submitted ye admitted that a list of "photos" was submitted. So a list of photos is not a list :eek: :rolleyes:
    Sparks wrote: »
    It's simple enough - he started preaching unity and then didn't follow through with the idea in his public actions and statements.!

    He's very bold :P
    Sparks wrote: »
    I've said that myself on here once or twice!

    You have ;) However they'd get banned if they disagreed with you :)


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    #81
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    Agreed but a lot, dare I say the majority, of pistol shooters are NOT ISSF members though.

    What would the NASPRC members consider appropiate rimfire pistols? Probably Ruger Mark 2 & 3's and the Browning Buckmarks, which according to some of the ISSF members here would be suitable as entry level pistol for ISSF pistol shooting. So why are these not on the list ?
    Eh - hello! The Browning Buckmark, Sig Trailside/Hammerli eXesse are on the list on the NTSA website. They have been used quite successfully in local competitions, although their long-term viability in a mature competition environment is doubtful.
    As to why they are not on the DoJ SI list - then you need to ask elsewhere:confused:


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    #82
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Eh - hello! The Browning Buckmark, Sig Trailside/Hammerli eXesse are on the list on the NTSA website...........

    Maybe the DOJ are not that good at "copy" & "paste" or the fact the Buckmark takes 10 rounds, if I remember rightly. I know the Rugers do ;)


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    #83
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    I stated that a "list" was submitted to DOJ.
    Again, Liar! That is not what you stated! Bunny, it's up there in black and white - you stated that a list was submitted of the firearms that an NGB thought were the only ones that anyone needed. The lists myself and rrpc posted were (a) not actually lists of pistols - one was a summary of the calibres and actions used in ISSF shooting and one was a page of photos of example pistols used, no implication was given that these were the only things suited for everyone and in fact the photos were stressed as being a small sample of even the firearms we used, let alone what everyone else used; and (b) they went in to the DoJ prior to the founding of the FCP under a different Minister.
    He's very bold :P
    Awww, bless.
    Hey, how about he shows up for a group hug with the IPSA lads and we all forgive and forget? Sound good?
    You have ;) However they'd get banned if they disagreed with you :)
    Really? Folks get banned for disagreement, eh?
    Odd that, I thought you had to break the rules of the forum to be banned even for a short period of time; and to get properly banned you had to do something like, oh I don't know, threaten to sue boards.ie ltd unless the shooting forum was shut down. Or other stupid anti-shooting things like that. But hey, what would I know...


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    #84
    tonysopprano
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    So the list "that never was" has resurfaced in a revised format.

    Funny that the NTSA website and DOJ list only list pellet guns and specially designed .22 pistols.

    What is the max calibre in ISSF and why are these on neither list?

    Bunny, dont alwas agree with you, but Mulder and Scully should be consulted.

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



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    #85
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    tonysopprano wrote: »
    So the list "that never was" has resurfaced in a revised format.

    Funny that the NTSA website and DOJ list only list pellet guns and specially designed .22 pistols.

    What is the max calibre in ISSf and why are these on neither list?

    Bunny, dont awas agree with you, but Mulder and Scully should be consulted.
    aren't .32 calibre pistols used for the centrefire competitions ?


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    #86
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    tonysopprano wrote: »
    What is the max calibre in ISSf and why are these on neither list?
    Max calibre in what match? (ISSF isn't just the one kind of shooting).

    10m Air Pistol: 0.177
    10m Air Rifle: 0.177
    25m and 50m Smallbore Pistol: 0.22lr (odd that, for a smallbore match...)
    50m Smallbore Rifle: 0.22lr
    25m Fullbore Pistol: 0.38
    300m Rifle: 8mm
    Shotgun: 0.729 :D


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    #87
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    tonysopprano wrote: »
    So the list "that never was" has resurfaced in a revised format.

    Funny that the NTSA website and DOJ list only list pellet guns and specially designed .22 pistols.

    What is the max calibre in ISSF and why are these on neither list?

    Bunny, dont alwas agree with you, but Mulder and Scully should be consulted.
    Aaarrgh! - look again at the NTSA website! The centrefire pistols used in ISSF competitions are listed there. Calibre used is .32 wadcutter. Why do you keep asking on boards why such and such is not on the DoJ list - ask them!


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    #88
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    Again, Liar! That is not what you stated! Bunny, it's up there in black and white - you stated that a list was submitted of the firearms that an NGB thought were the only ones that anyone needed. The lists myself and rrpc posted were (a) not actually lists of pistols - one was a summary of the calibres and actions used in ISSF shooting and one was a page of photos of example pistols used, no implication was given that these were the only things suited for everyone and in fact the photos were stressed as being a small sample of even the firearms we used, let alone what everyone else used; and (b) they went in to the DoJ prior to the founding of the FCP under a different Minister.
    Awww, bless..

    Seems I wasn't too far off :P looking at the OP on this thread :cool:

    If ye added "Glocks" they'd probably be OK in the Ministers eyes too ;)
    Sparks wrote: »
    Hey, how about he shows up for a group hug with the IPSA lads and we all forgive and forget? Sound good??

    :cool:
    Sparks wrote: »
    Really? Folks get banned for disagreement, eh? Odd that, I thought you had to break the rules of the forum to be banned even for a short period of time; and to get properly banned you had to do something like, oh I don't know, threaten to sue boards.ie ltd unless the shooting forum was shut down. Or other stupid anti-shooting things like that. But hey, what would I know...

    Calling people a liar twice in as many posts, when you know it's not a lie, would lead to some people getting upset and loosing their tempers and posting something in the heat of the moment and subsequently allowing you to ban them, not that that's what your trying to do :D

    So I think we shall have to agree to differ on the defination of a "list" ;)


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    #89
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    i give up , really the whole thing is a shambles , ahern decides to pick one tiny strand of pistol shooting eg. olympic and thats all we're allowed ? there are dozens of other competions that don't involve practical shooting but these have been ignored .:mad:


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    #90
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    tonysopprano wrote: »
    So the list "that never was" has resurfaced in a revised format.

    Funny that the NTSA website and DOJ list only list pellet guns and specially designed .22 pistols.

    What is the max calibre in ISSF and why are these on neither list?

    Bunny, dont alwas agree with you, but Mulder and Scully should be consulted.

    The truth is out there ;) You just gotta look :)


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    #91
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Aaarrgh! - look again at the NTSA website! The centrefire pistols used in ISSF competitions are listed there. Calibre used is .32 wadcutter. Why do you keep asking on boards why such and such is not on the DoJ list - ask them!

    We shall wait and see whats on the next list from the DOJ these will be centrefire so won't be on this list ;)

    Be weird if it's another "copy" & "paste" job though :)


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