PGDE and teacher training subjects

Dionysus

Hi,

I'm down to teach Business and History in a school during my PGDE 2009-2010. My degree was in History and Politics (CSPE). History is fine. The problem is with my second, minor, subject. The principal said there was only a couple of classes per week of CSPE and I'd get much more classes if I chose one of my part degree (1st Year) subjects, Irish or Economics (Business).

I left the decision on the minor subject with him as I thought he'd know the system best. I'm completely happy to teach CSPE, Irish or Business. When I collected the form from the school he had me down for business and when I arrived with it to the PGDE course the lady there said that because my degree was Politics I would be better to do the CSPE classes rather than business. At least then, she said, I would be fully qualified to teach CSPE whereas the Politics degree without the CSPE methodology does not qualify me to teach CSPE.

Should I go back to the principal and ask him for the 2 hours as CSPE rather than Business? Or would I be better off careerwise to stick with Business? Would there be any benefit in keeping the Business teaching hours but ask for 2 classes of CSPE per week on top of it in order to be fully qualified as a CSPE teacher?

Any advice on how principals/employers would view this situation would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

rainbowtrout

I think the main problem here is that you don't have a Business degree so you will not be a qualified Business teacher, to qualify to teach a subject it must make up 30% of your degree, for it to be recognised by the teaching council. Also there are hundreds of business graduates with a full business degree, they even have separate entry to the PGDE for them there's so many of them. Better be qualified to teach subjects you have a degree in rather than have the teaching methodologies for a subject you are not qualified in.

trebormurf

I'd get much more classes if I chose one of my part degree (1st Year) subjects, Irish or Economics (Business).

What the principal means here is he'll get more classes out of you (the good ol dip student) for free!! Stick with the CSPE my friend. As rainbowtrout says its better to be qualified in 2 subjects especially with Politics and Society becoming a Leaving Cert subject sometime in the future.

Nead21

the above posters are correct, you are better off teaching CSPE. regardless of whether you teach business during your TP, you will not be considered "qualified" to teach business when you go looking for a job next year. better off getting experience teaching the subjects you are qualified to teach.

i also taught history and cspe during my Dip year, and there wasnt a problem with the school. granted i had less cspe classes, but for both subjects i had first and second years.

Dionysus

Thank you so much, rainbowtrout, trebormurf and Nead21.

This morning I went and spoke with the principal. It was shorter than I would have liked - about 1 minute - as he had to go off, but he asked the secretary to put me down for CSPE as well as history. He then asked another member of staff to speak with me. It transpired that this staff member will be my 'co-operating teacher' so it was an informative discussion. This staff member was surprised that I needed 5 class periods in history, as well as 2 in CSPE. So, apparently because the school timetable works in blocks of 3 periods, he said I'd have to take 6 periods in History, as well as the 2 CSPE periods. The History & CSPE is sorted now anyway, thankfully.

However, I am still down to do the four periods of Business on top of these 8 periods. He said that they will probably not be removed. If this is so, I'm down for the maximum number of hours per week allowable (according to the Uni), 8 hours. I've two questions now, which I didn't feel were appropriate to put to the staff member:

Do they pay me for the 4 periods of business, as they are not necessary for my PGDE qualification?

Would this amount of time teaching for the PGDE each week be common enough?

Thanks again.

rainbowtrout

Dionysus wrote: »

Thank you so much, rainbowtrout, trebormurf and Nead21.

This morning I went and spoke with the principal. It was shorter than I would have liked - about 1 minute - as he had to go off, but he asked the secretary to put me down for CSPE as well as history. He then asked another member of staff to speak with me. It transpired that this staff member will be my 'co-operating teacher' so it was an informative discussion. This staff member was surprised that I needed 5 class periods in history, as well as 2 in CSPE. So, apparently because the school timetable works in blocks of 3 periods, he said I'd have to take 6 periods in History, as well as the 2 CSPE periods. The History & CSPE is sorted now anyway, thankfully.

However, I am still down to do the four periods of Business on top of these 8 periods. He said that they will probably not be removed. If this is so, I'm down for the maximum number of hours per week allowable (according to the Uni), 8 hours. I've two questions now, which I didn't feel were appropriate to put to the staff member:

Do they pay me for the 4 periods of business, as they are not necessary for my PGDE qualification?

Would this amount of time teaching for the PGDE each week be common enough?

Thanks again.

No, you won't get paid for any of it, the theory being, there is already a qualified teacher being paid to teach those classes, so paying you means two people would be paid to teach the same class. Take the classes, as least you will have the experience for when you are looking for a job.

I did the Science education degree in UL, so slightly different from the PGDE but we had to have between 15-18 class periods a week on teaching practice. So if you are doing 12 I don't think it's over the top.

Nead21

I did my Dip in Maynooth, and we had 8 class periods per week (monday and fri), and approx 20 class periods during TP block.

it kinda looks like you're being taking advantage off tbh, you shouldnt really be slotted in to teach classes that you're not training for. try and find out if there is a co-operating teacher for the business classes....make sure you're not their actual teacher (this happened to a girl i was in the Dip with).

if you are unhappy, talk to the college about it and get their opinion on the situation.

hope this helps

Dionysus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, you won't get paid for any of it, the theory being, there is already a qualified teacher being paid to teach those classes, so paying you means two people would be paid to teach the same class. Take the classes, as least you will have the experience for when you are looking for a job.

OK, but if there already is a teacher assigned to those business classes - and I am talking about the business classes only - what is the interest of the school in giving them to me when they are not necessary for my PDGE (which is in two different subjects)?

I could understand them wanting to give the classes to me if they hadn't a teacher and therefore the principal would save the school a small forunte in subbing (c. €170 per week for 4 classes).

Dionysus

Nead21 wrote: »

I did my Dip in Maynooth, and we had 8 class periods per week (monday and fri), and approx 20 class periods during TP block.

What is the TP Block? I'm doing it in UCD and, as far as I know, we will just be in the school every morning during the school year. I know there is a TP Block mode in NUIG but it is in contrast to TP Sequential mode. Is there a mixture of Block and Sequential in NUIM? Did your TP Block mode last for a full week?

Nead21 wrote: »

it kinda looks like you're being taking advantage off tbh, you shouldnt really be slotted in to teach classes that you're not training for. try and find out if there is a co-operating teacher for the business classes....make sure you're not their actual teacher (this happened to a girl i was in the Dip with).

But by putting me down for 4 classes business isn't the school saying I am their actual teacher? They never mentioned anything about my observing the existing teacher during these classes.

I suppose the nub of the issue is: is there any career advantage in doing the 4 classes business every week? Thanks.

ateam

The college won't care about your minor subject at all so don't worry whether it's CSPE or business and don't bother preparing lesson plans for the minor subject as they will not be checked.

In general, the principal will pay very little attention to hdippers as they are very busy, so whatever they say you're doing - just do it. You don't want to get a reputation for asking annoying questions and fussing about everything.

They may have made a mistake in giving you the four business classes, I wouldn't get too excited about getting paid because you'll probably find that classes will be switched around and changed once September comes. If they do give you 4 classes extra, I would refuse them anyway, it's not worth it in the long run with lesson plans, assignments, lectures etc. You'll wreck yourself.

trebormurf

Welcome to the Irish education system!! Its all about being taken for granted or being taken advantage of my friend. At this point in your career its all about them telling you to jump and you asking how high. And when you complete the year its all about who you know, not what you know. A lot of employers dont really take your PGDE year into account, even though most of these employers were once H-Dip/PGDE students themselves.

You travel miles to interviews for jobs that are already filled before the job is advertised. In these interviews people, some of whom have never even taught a class before, (sometimes its a parent or maybe even the school secretary asking the questions) point out that you have no experience of teaching Leaving Cert whatever (of course you haven't, you're not allowed teach exam classes as a student) and focus mainly on any negative they can find on your CV/Application Form.

Why on earth do they call you to interview in the first place when they can see from your application that you don't really have the experience they require?? Do they get some kind of satisfaction from knocking newly qualified teachers' confidence?? No its because they are obliged by law to interview some fool for a "position" that has already been filled by the Deputy Principal's son/daughter, nephew/niece or the like. All this after you've coughed up e90 to register with the useless Teaching Council just to be allowed in the door of a school for an interview.

As you can tell from that rant i'm a bit disillusioned with the whole thing at the moment and the behaviour of the principal in your school, taking advantage of you because he knows you're gonna jump through hoops to make a good impression, is just wrong-plain & simple. But alas its symptomatic of the Irish education system i'm afraid

rainbowtrout

Dionysus wrote: »

OK, but if there already is a teacher assigned to those business classes - and I am talking about the business classes only - what is the interest of the school in giving them to me when they are not necessary for my PDGE (which is in two different subjects)?

I could understand them wanting to give the classes to me if they hadn't a teacher and therefore the principal would save the school a small forunte in subbing (c. €170 per week for 4 classes).

God only knows, the principal might just be giving you the classes so you can get the experience, or he might have decided to give you the classes so he can get the other teacher to do other stuff at that time... it's not something i would question too much.

Nead21

Dionysus wrote: »

What is the TP Block?

I suppose the nub of the issue is: is there any career advantage in doing the 4 classes business every week? Thanks.

TP block was 3 full weeks of teaching in jan as opposed to being in the school on mondays and fridays only.

As far as i can see there is no career advantage in doing 4 classes of business. The fact of the matter remains the you are not qualifying as a business teacher as it is not your degree. The principal of the school is threating you as though you are employed in the school, cause that happens all the time and you end up teaching subjects you didnt actually take a position for.

Again talk to the college, see what they say. There is no point over-extending yourself when doing the Dip, you're going to be busy enough, particularly when you're not being paid for this.

gaeilgegrinds

You should really be paid for those business classes, or if someone else is getting paid they should get them back. Make sure you do not put them down on your form as Dip classes though as you do not want to have to do plans for them.

Dionysus

Revisiting this now. So, I was given 3 history classes and 4 business classes for the following year and assured by my principal and uni tutor that this was acceptable. However, my supervisor has recently returned to me saying I hadn't a sufficient number of history classes and that I could either take Business as my main subject or, if I still wanted history as the main subject, I had to request at least one more history class from the principal. The principal said he had not got them.

I now have to return to the supervisor with this reply. I am thinking of taking her up on her initial offer of doing business as my main subject, and thus having five supervisor visits in Business, and relegating history to second subject status and thus one university visit. However, what is the downside of making this change? That's the most important question. My degree and postgrad is in history so I was keen on it; I only have 1st year economics, which is the basis for my teaching Business Studies.

I'd feel equally comfortable teaching both subjects. Importantly, perhaps, my Business class is precisely half the size of my History class and thus, at the moment, easier to manage and motivate.

rainbowtrout

Dionysus wrote: »

Revisiting this now. So, I was given 3 history classes and 4 business classes for the following year and assured by my principal and uni tutor that this was acceptable. However, my supervisor has recently returned to me saying I hadn't a sufficient number of history classes and that I could either take Business as my main subject or, if I still wanted history as the main subject, I had to request at least one more history class from the principal. The principal said he had not got them.

I now have to return to the supervisor with this reply. I am thinking of taking her up on her initial offer of doing business as my main subject, and thus having five supervisor visits in Business, and relegating history to second subject status and thus one university visit. However, what is the downside of making this change? That's the most important question. My degree and postgrad is in history so I was keen on it; I only have 1st year economics, which is the basis for my teaching Business Studies.

I'd feel equally comfortable teaching both subjects. Importantly, perhaps, my Business class is precisely half the size of my History class and thus, at the moment, easier to manage and motivate.

I think the main problem here is still the one I and a few other posters mentioned a while back. You're still not going to be a qualified business teacher because you don't have a degree in it. Here's the real question: when you go to register with the teaching council next summer, what will you be registered as? They register you by degree subject, so it will be History and CSPE as you've already said. What is unclear (and I don't know the answer because I did an Education degree rather than degree and dip), is do the TC care what subjects you were taught in the PGDE to be registered as a teacher, or do the subjects you did in the PGDE have to match your degree? Or do they just look at the PGDE as a teaching qualification and don't look at what subjects you did it in? Is it a teaching qualification or a subject specific teaching qualification?

Dionysus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What is unclear (and I don't know the answer because I did an Education degree rather than degree and dip), is do the TC care what subjects you were taught in the PGDE to be registered as a teacher, or do the subjects you did in the PGDE have to match your degree? Or do they just look at the PGDE as a teaching qualification and don't look at what subjects you did it in? Is it a teaching qualification or a subject specific teaching qualification?

That is what I'm unsure of. I'm not quite sure what if any benefit a subject methodology gives me. I think they look at the PGDE as a teaching qualification and not bother about the subjects, but I'm not sure hence my question: does it really matter if I take Business rather than History as my main subject.

Rosita

Dionysus wrote: »

That is what I'm unsure of. I'm not quite sure what if any benefit a subject methodology gives me. I think they look at the PGDE as a teaching qualification and not bother about the subjects, but I'm not sure hence my question: does it really matter if I take Business rather than History as my main subject.

My understanding is that the subject methodologies are a matter for the university, and if they are happy with what you are doing so that you can do the course, the nuts and bolts are irrelevant to the teaching council.

The teaching council registers people as teachers of specific subjects on the basis of two criteria as far as I am aware: 1) a teaching qualification - the PGDE which qualifies you to teach and 2) your degree subject/s which decides specifically what you are qualified to teach.

To answer your question - "does it really matter if I take Business rather than History as my main subject?" - I cannot see why it would matter.

It would also mean that you have some experience teaching business which cannot be a bad thing as your History qualifications will speak for themselves anyway.