The right Card for my needs?

jasonb

Hi there,

I've posted something similar in the Computers & Technology forum but I've a specific question about Graphic Cards that I thought I might put in here...

Basically, I'm planning to get a new PC, and a relatively normal one, not a monster. It'll be mainly used for Browsing / Office etc., and also some games, though nothing high-end.

However, I do want to run Microsoft Flight Simulator X as well as possible. I've got a book about FSX that shows the specs of the test machines the authors were using. So what I'm trying to do is buy hardware now that will be as good as or better than what they had 3 years ago, and therefore I should get great performance with FSX.

Anyhow, here's the spec the authors used :

PC 1 : Core Duo 2.9Ghz, 2Gb Ram, Dual 512Mb nVidia GeForce 7900 GTX
PC 2 : Core Duo 2.4Ghz, 2Gb Ram, Dual 1Gb nVidia GeForce 7950 GX2

What I'm currently looking at buying is

Intel Core 2 Quad Core Q8300 Processor ( 2.5Ghz, 4Mb Cache, 1333MHz FSB ), 4Gb Dual Channel DDR2 800MHz Ram, nVidia GeForce GT220 1Gb

I'm fairly happy my Processor / Ram is better than theirs, but not too certain at all about the Graphics card. From what I've read the GT220 is equivalent to something like the 9500, but they were using dual video cards.

So, that's where my Video Card knowledge falls down. How does the GT220 1Gb rate against the cards they were using. If it's not the same or better, what card should I be looking at? I imagine the top of the range cards today would easily beat those dual 79xxs, but I don't want to fork out for a top of the range card, just a card that's better than the spec the authors used.

Anyhow, hope that all makes sense, thanks in advance for your recommendations!

J.

TerrorFirmer

Dual 7900GTX or 7950GX2 are very old cards, an 80 euro card these days would out perform them. That said, FSX is very CPU intensive, so a good dual core or quad core will be the decisive factor in performance - the GT220 isn't a great card and cannot utilize 1GB at all effectively, but its more then fine for FSX. There are far better value cards out there however.

jasonb

Thanks for your reply...

So, assuming the Intel Core 2 Quad Core Q8300 Processor ( 2.5Ghz, 4Mb Cache, 1333MHz FSB ) covers the CPU needs well, could you recommend one of those far better value cards? When ordering the PC I can just not buy the GT220 and buy a different card spearately. Thanks!

J.

TerrorFirmer

If its coming with the machine then it's fine. It's a perfectly good card for occasional gaming and gaming with titles that are more CPU bound. I thought you were building the machine yourself hence the recommendation.

jasonb

Thanks again for your reply.

It is coming with the PC, but I also have an option of getting a more basic card and saving €70, which could then be spent on a better card than the GT220 ( along with a little extra money if needed ). I'm decent enough with computers to install a graphics card myself.

So if you could recommend a card for less than €100 that's better than the GT220 I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

J.

Effluo

ati 4850 can be got for around 95 euro delivered but would almost be overkill for what you want it for. (play the newest games on 1680x1050)

jasonb

Thanks for your reply. Is this the card you're talking about?

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=439020&view=detailed#ProductTabs

Probably a silly question, and I know that Ram isn't the only thing that's important, but this has 512Mb, whereas the GT220 has 1Gb. But the 4850 is still the better card? Or should I look at the 1Gb 4850 ( http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=361772 )

Is there any difference between ( say ) an ASUS 4850 and a Sapphire 4850?

Thanks!

J.

TerrorFirmer

4850 512MB is fine; it can utilize 1GB but to a very limited extent - nothing worth paying extra for, so whatever 4850 is cheapest. Between the vendors, there's no difference in the cards at a basic level, but they offer different features which can impact price - cooling, overclocked frequencies, warranty period, and so on. As for the GT220, it certainly wouldn't make use of 1GB (in fact, it would be slower then a 512mb variant of the same card), and would be whacked by the 4850 512MB performance wise. It's just classic marketing, big numbers and all that. The GT220 also comes in a DDR2 variant; performance cards are all DDR3 (The memory speeds would be 800mhz vs 1400mhz effective, so you can see the huge difference between DDR2 and DDR3). Not sure which yours is, but if its a 1GB DDR2 card, then it'd be a very sore looser to the 4850 indeed.

jasonb

Excellent. 512Mb 4850 it is then! Now I just have to wait for the money to buy it all. Thanks to everyone for their help...

J.

jasonb

Ok, I've actually thought of another couple of questions...

The PC I'm thinking of getting ( and putting the 4850 into ) is a Dell Inspiron 545 MT. I've looked online at their manuals section, and this PC has '1 PCI-Express x16 slot supporting full-height cards'. Does that mean the 4850 will work with this PC? It doesn't say if it's a PCI-E 2.0 slot or not.

I've also checked and the PC has a 300W Power Supply, will that be enough to handle the 4850? I might also be putting a Discrete Sound Card into one of the PCI slots too, a SoundBlaster Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro, though that's not essential if it makes a difference to the power used. Apart from that it'll have 1 Core 2 Quad Processor, 1 Hard Disk and 1 DVD RW Drive.

Thanks in advance!

J.

jonny72

jasonb wrote: »

Ok, I've actually thought of another couple of questions...

The PC I'm thinking of getting ( and putting the 4850 into ) is a Dell Inspiron 545 MT. I've looked online at their manuals section, and this PC has '1 PCI-Express x16 slot supporting full-height cards'. Does that mean the 4850 will work with this PC? It doesn't say if it's a PCI-E 2.0 slot or not.

I've also checked and the PC has a 300W Power Supply, will that be enough to handle the 4850? I might also be putting a Discrete Sound Card into one of the PCI slots too, a SoundBlaster Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro, though that's not essential if it makes a difference to the power used. Apart from that it'll have 1 Core 2 Quad Processor, 1 Hard Disk and 1 DVD RW Drive.

Thanks in advance!

J.

4850 with 300 watt power supply - not good

4670 will run no problem, it doesnt even need a power connection. A good bit faster than the other cards (7900 and GT220) mentioned about 60 to 70% of the speed of a 4850. It should be well able to play flight sim X.

If you are feeling adventurous, you could try replacing the power supply, but on a dell I think that is extremely tricky.

Theres also another card between the 4850 and the 4670.. its the 4830.. one on pixmania for about 70 euros, decent speed, low power draw, but might be tight on a 300 watt psu.

jasonb

Thanks for your response...

Part of me is glad I asked the question now, and part of me just wishes it wasn't so awkward. Maybe I'm old, but it seemed to be a lot easier with my first 8088 ( or even my first 486sx )!

Anyhow, a 4850 is a no-no with the 300 W. I'm going to get in touch with Dell to see if they can ship the PC with a different power supply, or if I can even buy one separately and install it myself ( their online manual for that PC does have instructions for replacing a power supply, so it must be doable ).

If not, then I reckon I'll be going with a 4670, I assume 512Mb is fine.

Thanks again...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

TBH I can't imagine replacing the PSU on a modern Dell to be anything other than as easy to replace in a self build.

Their PSU's would have to adhere to the standard ATX specs as all PSU's these days do, or they wouldn;t be allowed build with them.

I'd say you could just whip the PSU out, and replace it with something like this:

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=340676 €86

Its a 650W unit form Corsair, should keep all your components happy

jasonb

I would have thought, like yourself, that it should be fairly easy to upgrade the Power Supply, but I'm not as up to date as I used to be with PCs, so I could be wrong!

Anyhow, if the PC is stuck with 300W the 4670 will probably do me just fine, as someone said earlier, the 4850 is probably over-kill. If I can put a bigger power supply in, then I'll go with the 4850!

Just ordering the PC with Dell now, they've agreed to take some money off and give me just the integrated video and take out the discrete card they were selling with the PC, even though that wasn't an option online. No point paying for a card I'm just going to replace anyhow!

J.

Dublin_Gunner

jasonb wrote: »

I would have thought, like yourself, that it should be fairly easy to upgrade the Power Supply, but I'm not as up to date as I used to be with PCs, so I could be wrong!

Anyhow, if the PC is stuck with 300W the 4670 will probably do me just fine, as someone said earlier, the 4850 is probably over-kill. If I can put a bigger power supply in, then I'll go with the 4850!

Just ordering the PC with Dell now, they've agreed to take some money off and give me just the integrated video and take out the discrete card they were selling with the PC, even though that wasn't an option online. No point paying for a card I'm just going to replace anyhow!

J.

TBH with advancements in PC technologies, they've become so much easier to build and upgrade than they used to be.

A PSU should be as easy to upgrade as unscrewing the unit, disconnecting all connections, take out, replace with new unit.

Nice of them to give a few quid off and not give the vid card though. Thumbs up.

jasonb

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Nice of them to give a few quid off and not give the vid card though. Thumbs up.

I agree. It was only €45, but that's more than half of a 4850, and only about €20 short of a 4670, so I'm not complaining! Was only chancing my arm ringing them as it wasn't an option online.

Very happy with a price of €514 for the following :

Intel Core 2 Quad Core Q8300 Processor ( 2.5Ghz, 4Mb Cache, 1333MHz FSB )
6Gb Dual Channel DDR2 800MHz Ram
DVD R/W
Windows Vista Home Premium 64 Bit ( with Windows 7 Upgrade Offer )

I'll get a great graphics card and it'll still come in at €600...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

I assume thats with a monitor?

jasonb

Actually no, I didn't get a monitor as I'm happy enough with the one I have. Why, do you think there should be a monitor for that price?

J.

Dublin_Gunner

jasonb wrote: »

Actually no, I didn't get a monitor as I'm happy enough with the one I have. Why, do you think there should be a monitor for that price?

J.

Maybe not, I was just quickly juggling in my mind how much it would cost to build a similar system yourself, thats all (baring in mind the extra for the PSU €86, and the bid card 4850 €116, both on komplett, brings the total price to €716)

Prices from Komplett:
Q8300 €149
Asus P5QC €99
Crucial Ballistix 2GBx3 €78
Vista Home Prem. OEM €115 (includes Win 7 voucher)
DVD +-RW €20
HDD 500GB Samsung €48

Total: €509 (w/ PSU & GFX = €711)

So very similar price, only I would bet the ram I chose would be better, as would the motherboard.

jasonb

To be honest I'd say the Ram and Motherboard you'd buy would probably be a lot better!

I hadn't considered going down the self-build route as it's been a fair few years since I built my own PC and I'm not as confident about the different technologies as I used to be. So I thought I'd take the 'average Joe' route and just buy from Dell.

Have to say though, for just over €500 I'm fairly happy with the spec I got. Once I get the PC I'll check to see if there's room inside for the 4850 ( and how easy the PSU will be to replace ) before I make my decision on the 4850 or 4670!

J.

jasonb

Well, my PC arrived today and I'm just about to order a PSU and the Graphics card. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for the card in the Case. I've no problem with the length of the card, or the height, but the thickness might be an issue, as the Sata cables for the Hard Disk & Cd Rom are plugged into the Motherboard fairly close to where the graphics card might be.

Anyhow, I'm looking at two cards, as follows :

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=439020

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=442785

The second card is €8.50 more expensive as it has a better cooling system, but this cooling system also makes it wider.

So, my question is, do I need the better cooling system ( I've heard these cards run hot ) and therefore the wider card, or should I be fine with the thinner card. I know the wider card uses a second PCI slot for cooling, and I don't have a problem with that, I won't be using the PCI x1 slot which is beside the PCI x16 slot on the motherboard. But those Sata cables ( at the end of the card furthest from the back of the PC ) might be a little too close for comfort with the wider card, I'm not sure.

I reckon as long as there isn't a strong reason to get the better cooling card, I'll go with the cheaper one as it looks a little thinner.

As for the PSU, I'm getting a Cosair model ( http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=404889 ). It's the same dimensions as the PSU in the PC, but it says it has a 120mm fan. I'm guessing this means the fan is either at the top or the bottom of the PSU, not at the back ( where the fan in the Dell PSU is ). Is that a problem? Sorry if it's a stupid question...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

Hi Jason - both of those cards are dual slot - but the slightly more expensive one exhausts outside of the case - a very good thing if your chassis is small. So that would be my preference.

Secondly, the 120mm fan on the Corsair unit would refer to the fan that 'sucks' air from inside the case, not the fan at the rear.

Hope this helps.

Let us know how you get on with the upgrades - I can't imagine the SATA cables being an issue with the card - even if they are slightly in the way, they are generally very flexible

jasonb

Thanks as always for your replies Dublin Gunner!

The cost doesn't bother me ( I mean, it's €8.50! ) it's just the hassle of getting the wider card and then having to change it if it doesn't fit.

The problem with the Sata cables is that they're side on to where the card would be, so they're not that flexible that way!

That said, I think I'll go with the wider card though, as if it fits it'll just be a cooler and better option.

I'll order them now, should have them on Wed and I'll let you know how it goes... Thanks for your help...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks as always for your replies Dublin Gunner!

The cost doesn't bother me ( I mean, it's €8.50! ) it's just the hassle of getting the wider card and then having to change it if it doesn't fit.

The problem with the Sata cables is that they're side on to where the card would be, so they're not that flexible that way!

That said, I think I'll go with the wider card though, as if it fits it'll just be a cooler and better option.

I'll order them now, should have them on Wed and I'll let you know how it goes... Thanks for your help...

J.

No problem, glad to help!

The second card isn't any wider, its just the cooler runs the full length.

You'll be surprised by how far the end of the card is raised from the motherbard when you install it, so you should have plenty of room for the cables.

Is there any chance you could take a snap of the motherboard where the cables connect, beside the PCI-E slot and upload them here? (even from a camera fine would suffice I'd say)

jasonb

Yeah, it's the cooler running the full length that's the problem, as the Sata Cables are near the end of the card, so the shorter cooler probably wouldn't go near them. Anyhow, the order has gone in now ( for the PSU, the card with the better cooler and 1 longer Sata cable as one of the cables is quite short and it wouldn't be able to go around the card ).

I've attached a pic, though it's not great. The link below also has a drawing of the motherboard, scroll down to the Inspiron 545 section. Looking at the drawing, I've just realised that there are 4 Sata sockets, Sata 0, 1, 4 and 5. 0 & 1 are closer to the card slot, 4 & 5 are further away. Would there be a problem with using 4 & 5 for the Hard Disk and Optical Drive instead?

http://support.euro.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/insp535mt/en/sm/techov.htm#wp1200202

J.

P.S. I should probably explain the pic! The Ram's in the bottom left hand corner. In the top right are two PCI slots, then one PCI x1 and then the PCI x16. To the left of the PCI x1 slot you can see the Blue Sata Cable ( just above the battery ), directly to the left of that is the orange Sata cable ( Optical Drive ) which you can't really see. The two spare Sata slots are above those two cables. Hope that makes sense!

Dublin_Gunner

I think you'll be fine. However, there should be no reason you cannot move them to the other SATA ports.

I noticed that at least one of the ports is blue - is the other one blue also (2 out of the 4)? This would mean you have 2 SATA controllers onboard (one from the chipset, and the other from another add-in chip, like the USB / IDE controller.

You might just want to check that both controllers support optical drives, but I'd say you'll be fine.

jasonb

Sata 0 is blue, 1 & 4 are Black and 5 are white.

I'm not familar enough with Sata to know what the different colours might mean. I suppose the questions that are important to me are can the Hard Disk / Optical Drive work off any of the ports, and are some of the ports slower / faster than the others?

Thanks a lot for spending your lunch looking into this for me. With some luck ( and Komplett meeting their 'Ready for collection in 2 Days' promise, I'll be installing the Card and PSU on Wednesday evening...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

jasonb wrote: »

Sata 0 is blue, 1 & 4 are Black and 5 are white.

I'm not familar enough with Sata to know what the different colours might mean. I suppose the questions that are important to me are can the Hard Disk / Optical Drive work off any of the ports, and are some of the ports slower / faster than the others?

Thanks a lot for spending your lunch looking into this for me. With some luck ( and Komplett meeting their 'Ready for collection in 2 Days' promise, I'll be installing the Card and PSU on Wednesday evening...

J.

Not a problem

Usually, different coloured slots = different SATA controller. In your case - I have no idea, I don't think I've seen 3 different coloured ones before!!

Usually, the difference of the ports comes down to RAID functionality - which you wont require with only one drive anyway.

Your HDD should be fine in any of them - its the optical I'd have (slight) concerns about.

I can't see the manual anywhere that states the actual components / chipsets used on the board, and what the different colours refer to.

Its not in the physical manual that should have come with your PC is it?

Is it a 545MT or ST?

jasonb

I hadn't even thought of looking at the manual! It's very small though, more of a quick start guide.

I'll have a look at an online manual about adding parts that might mention those 4 ports. I'll also check the BIOS when I finally get around to turning the thing on!

It's a 545MT by the way...

J.

Dublin_Gunner

It appears the 545 isn't listed with an online manual!! Grr!!

The best thing you can do, is to just try it.

You have onboard graphics, yes??

Switch the drives to the lower ports, and turn the machine on. If everything works - happy days

jasonb

Nothing like the suck it and see method!

I'll give it a go and see what happens. Fairly confident that no matter what I'll be able to suss out something though, if the card doesn't fit with Sata 0 & 1 being used, I should be able to use 4 & 5, or maybe even use angled Sata cables to route the cable away from the card. It'll be very bad luck if I can't get it working at all!

Thanks once again, I'll let you know how I get on...

J.