Liam Carroll Lives

Sponge Bob

He lives on in hospital but his companies were allwed by Judge De Valera to attempt an examinership again .

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0815/1224252592274.html

Entering court just before 9.30pm, Michael Cush SC for the companies said that Mr Carroll has been hospitalised and was not in a position to give instructions in this application. However, the other two directors of the companies - David Torpey and John Pope - had passed resolutions approving the application for an examiner to be appointed.

The basis of the application

Mr Cush told Mr Justice de Valera that the companies were providing two pieces of evidence in support of the application. This included letters of support from lenders to the Zoe development group with the exception of ACC.
AIB, Bank of Scotland (Ireland), KBC Bank Ireland and Bank of Ireland were supportive of the application. State-owned Anglo Irish Bank also had no objection and would advance companies €8 million for the development at North Wall in Dublin, the court heard.
The court was told that Bank of Scotland (Ireland) had advanced €50million to the companies since December 2008 when the companies presented a survival plan. Ulster Bank were neutral on whether it supported the application.
The second item of new evidence was detailed valuation reports from estate agents CBRE and Hooke & MacDonald on the future prospects for the properties.
Mr Justice de Valera said that this was all evidence that should have been provided to the High Court and the Supreme Court and that had not happened.
Mr Cush said that the companies could not have provided the evidence on the letters of support from the lenders. He acknowledged they could have provided the property valuation reports and had failed to do so. He asked that the valuation reports be kept confidential by the court.

I'll bet he did Crook and McDonald don't want real property prices to be disclosed .

Jane Marshall, solicitor for ACC, described as "vexatious" the fresh application.

She is quite right in that . Anyway, De Valera made his mind up,

Mr Justice Eamon de Valera permitted the presentation of a petition to appoint an examiner next Thursday

I am certain we will all have a good laugh at the numbers Crook and McDonald are pimping to the court by then .

AlekSmart

Shades of CJH all over this little epic.... ?

This type on nonsense is exactly what could do even more damage to something which should NOT be within Mr Carrols gift to influence.......Irelands international standing.

This is already poor as we attempt to stagger away from the pee-stained wall against which the Liam Carrols of this country have had us all standing for the past decade.

The rather lucid Judge Kelly and the members of the Supreme Court have delivered succinct judgements on this matter and at some point these need to be used as the base for onward movement.

To hear an eminent SC wax hopeful that a "New" Valuation Report by one of the ancien régeime represents startling new "evidence" is in the realm of the "píseog" and like all such fairy-stories needs to be kept away from the business of Governing a country !

The die is cast and we,as a nation,have nothing to gain from spurious attempts to salvage unattainable levels of return from developers misplaced confidence levels....their assets are worth what they are worth TODAY...let`s get the show on the road

tlev

I'm actually beyond anything rational at the moment. I just hope it is rejected. This whole thing stinks to high heavens.

andrewdeerpark

A property evaluation report retyped again by those crooks CBRE and Hooke and McDonald plus a report from chief economist at Goodbody Stockbrokers hardly scope for our supreme court to be overturned (I’m surprised they did not ring up Dan McLoughlin; the all is sustainable BOI economist from the celtic tiger days for his imput). If that does it for Carroll then we live in a real banana republic but nothing surprises me in Ireland any more.

You can imagine the Dublin property elite (lawyers, bankers, developers, etc) are doing all they can to save this house of cards until NAMA is rushed through the dail and the ordinary taxpayer can pick up the tab. We can only hope the separation between legislature and judiciary will save our future generations a costly NAMA experience, and that other large developers such as McNamara, Dunne, Crosby, O'Callaghan, Fleming etc that do not have their houses in order will be put to the sword in equal brutal fashion; but I doubt it?

dresden8

It's probably on the basis that if you go to court often enough eventually you'll get a sympathetic judge.

Is the judge's name the ultimate piece of irony or what?

Or is it a portent?

What's his "breeding"?

Heinrich

This seems to be an ever ending saga that will finally end when NAMA is installed and the stupid voter/taxpayer and his offspring and his offspring's offspring will pay for the mess created by the unleashed greed of FF's Celtic Tiger.

Meanwhile the man is hospitalised with some undisclosed illness.

johnfás

tlev wrote: »

I'm actually beyond anything rational at the moment. I just hope it is rejected. This whole thing stinks to high heavens.

It is quite rational - the company is acting within the confines of the Companies Acts 1963 - 2006 - which provides that an application for the appointment of an examiner may be grounded within 3 days of the court appointment of a receiver - and are quite entitled to do so. This application, like every other application will be judged on the basis of the evidence adduced to court, not on the "breeding" of the judge, as is the undercurrent of another poster's comments.

If it was you in the situation, I am quite sure that you would also exhaust all legal options available, so you can get off your high horse.

Heinrich wrote: »

This seems to be an ever ending saga that will finally end when NAMA is installed and the stupid voter/taxpayer and his offspring and his offspring's offspring will pay for the mess created by the unleashed greed of FF's Celtic Tiger.

Meanwhile the man is hospitalised with some undisclosed illness.

It was unreported in the Times and the Independent but the Examiner reported that he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

Heinrich

johnfás wrote: »

It is quite rational - the company is acting within the confines of the Companies Acts 1963 - 2006 - which provides that an application for the appointment of an examiner may be grounded within 3 days of the court appointment of a receiver - and are quite entitled to do so. This application, like every other application will be judged on the basis of the evidence adduced to court, not on the "breeding" of the judge, as is the undercurrent of another poster's comments.

If it was you in the situation, I am quite sure that you would also exhaust all legal options available, so you can get off your high horse.



It was unreported in the Times and the Independent but the Examiner reported that he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

Undisclosed illness!

is_that_so

This is a real last-ditch effort and based on what they've presented so far also fairly unlikely to succeed. The Arthur Beesley piece inside in Finance on CIBC is worth a read on the implications of the Zoe Group collapse and the tie-in to NAMA.

ANALYSIS: The approach to AIB by a Canadian bank implies credibility for the asset agency on world markets, writes ARTHUR BEESLEY

THE APPROACH to Allied Irish Banks (AIB) from Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC) and a likely liquidation of companies in Liam Carroll’s Zoe group bring crucial new dimensions to the Government’s preparations for the National Asset Management Agency (Nama).

Linky

Diarmuid

johnfás wrote: »

This application, like every other application will be judged on the basis of the evidence adduced to court, not on the "breeding" of the judge, as is the undercurrent of another poster's comments.

If it was you in the situation, I am quite sure that you would also exhaust all legal options available, so you can get off your high horse..

I think you need to re-read the post. No one is complaining that they are exercising their rights. It's the fact that it was granted on the back of more so-called independent reports (from clearly vested interests) over turning the judgement of both the High Court and The Supreme Court. THAT'S what stinks.

gnxx

Unbelievable.

Next week we will see that Liam Carroll is too unwell to give instructions and the case will drag on until NAMA is established ...

I also find it shocking that state owned Anglo is still giving dodgy loans. How on earth can they justify lending a further €8,000,000 to a company on the verge of collapse?

I'm totally against NAMA -- but even nationalisation seems unworkable unless we have a complete clean up in the dept. of finance, Irish owned banks and the associated regulators.

johnfás

Diarmuid wrote: »

I think you need to re-read the post. No one is complaining that they are exercising their rights. It's the fact that it was granted on the back of more so-called independent reports (from clearly vested interests) over turning the judgement of both the High Court and The Supreme Court. THAT'S what stinks.

Misguided and misinformation. They are not seeking to overturn the judgement of the High Court or the Supreme Court. A separate action has been grounded, albeit one which would achieve the same ends, in line with the Companies Acts.

johnfás

gnxx wrote: »

Unbelievable.

Next week we will see that Liam Carroll is too unwell to give instructions and the case will drag on until NAMA is established ...

Again, incorrect and misinformation. It is irrelevant whether he can give instructions, the issue is not one against Mr Carroll personally. The remaining directors of the company have the legal capacity to manage the companies affairs. The matters will progress with or without Mr Carroll's input.

dresden8

johnfás wrote: »

This application, like every other application will be judged on the basis of the evidence adduced to court,

Well, we have our first bit of evidence. Deadline was 5.30, application was accepted at 9.30.

Once more on the merry go round.

Sponge Bob

johnfás wrote: »

It was unreported in the Times and the Independent but the Examiner reported that he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

He was initially admitted to Vincents but was brought off to St Patricks on Thursday .

EastWallGirl

Remember that song:

The things that make you go Mmmmmm

I think we need someone clever to rework the lyrcis for celtic tiger/post celtic tiger Ireland.

ejmaztec

Heinrich wrote: »

This seems to be an ever ending saga that will finally end when NAMA is installed and the stupid voter/taxpayer and his offspring and his offspring's offspring will pay for the mess created by the unleashed greed of FF's Celtic Tiger.

I think that they'll be waving goodbye to most of the working population after the rest of the world is out of recession, because anyone with even the slightest get up and go, is going to be got up and gone, rather than remain here and allow their earnings to be crucified to pay for this FF inflicted crap.

Ireland will become the largest nature-reserve in Europe.

Bren Jacob

Your assuming that like you we all believe the Irish legal system to be completely impartial which I for one dont!

Watch yourself getting down off that auld horse boss........

johnfás wrote: »

This application, like every other application will be judged on the basis of the evidence adduced to court, not on the "breeding" of the judge, as is the undercurrent of another poster's comments.

If it was you in the situation, I am quite sure that you would also exhaust all legal options available, so you can get off your high horse.

tlev

johnfás wrote: »

If it was you in the situation, I am quite sure that you would also exhaust all legal options available, so you can get off your high horse.

Oh no see it ISN'T my situation. I didn't have a hand in bringing a country to the brink of ruin due to bad decision making and greed. I am all for capitalism, see that would entail paying for your mistakes, not other people. This guy screwed up and we save him? In what way is that fair. The right way would be let these guys burn so they won't make the same mistake twice, but hey since it is Ireland they have unlimited get out of jail free cards.

Scofflaw

Sponge Bob (and everyone), please don't make statements that can lead boards.ie into the libel courts. No problem with opinion, but don't make specific allegations of criminal actions such as lying in court.

moderately,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

Did I see mention in the Daily Star (Or Similar) of the good Mr Carroll being removed from a toilet cubicle after suffering a turn of some sort..?

Whatever.....:rolleyes:

What interests me currently is the ever so slight lifting of a veil and the emergence of two more "names"....mssrs Popey and Torpey.....I wonder what pedigree will emerge here ?

If what Dresden8 points out is true .....

Well, we have our first bit of evidence. Deadline was 5.30, application was accepted at 9.30.

then there ARE quite obviously strings being pulled,which might not be there for an everage Joe to grasp at...?

Perhaps Johnfás,who appears well grounded in matters jurisprudential,might have an inside track on how the higher courts view tardy applications for reliefs..???

There is a whiff of some serious backside-covering going on here which appears to revolve around the appelants being brazen enough to tough-it-out whilst relying on the "We`re FAR too big to be allowed fail" arguement to get their way.

However,what may yet mitigate against the Cowengaters ( ) is a deepening intererst in these arcane matters on the part of the genral public,boss......no matter where you dally these days one hears folks displaying an ACTUAL understanding of the Carroll Saga....which sure Ain`t good for those members of the Irish Banking "Old Guard" who are facing a shirtless Christmas !!!

Galwaydogs

I understand that Justice De Valera (finest of Fianna Fáil pedigree) was on duty.

I wonder was De Valera also on duty prior to the 5.30 deadline or was it perhaps some other judge? Perhaps someone might clarify.

Sponge Bob

Todays Sunday Times business section has a piece ( NOT ON LINE) about Carroll approaching Google with a view to a quick sale of the HQ in the Docklands ....for ca$h€€$h .

These approaches are described as occuring "this weekend" . "Other prospective buyers" are mentioned.

It is suggested that positive results from these approaches may form part of the business plan being presented in the High Court "the court will also receive updated valuations" .

Valuations were allegedly shown to the High Court on Friday and Valuations are to be shown on thursday next .

"A Source" told the ST "Carroll will not want any potential buyer of his assets to know what he values them at"

My only personal observation on that is that if a WRITTEN indication of interest from the likes of Google can be shown to the court then that gives Carroll leverage to prevent public disclosure of valuations in Court .

The risk is that the WRITTEN indication may contain a firm offer and that the firm offer is WAY below the valuation presented in Court .

ACC would be advised to demand full disclosure of all offers received "this weekend" and thereafter to see if they are at variance with these 'valuations'. Their liquidator has been said to have written to the Zoe directors and asked them to "update him"

I must also state that Commercial Property Valuations are carried out by CBRE on behalf of the Carroll empire and not by any other valuer and that this is clearly stated in the ST article

Reference is also made to an opinion given by another valuer on residential units. The business plan referred to in the High Court on friday included projected sales of 528 units over 30 months ( from now)

The valuer said they would be "just short" of 528 sales .

I would say no lower than 510 is "just short" and 510 units sold over 30 months amounts to 17 units a month . Carroll disclosed that the same group of companies had sold somewhere around 6 units a month in the months prior to his original application for examinership.

I take it that the december business plan referred to below was implemented form January to July .....for 7 months .

I quote Justice Peter Kelly in his judgement

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/c9f5f646ee82903080257612004a508d?OpenDocument

Indeed, I think it notable that since the business plan of last December was initiated and the ordinary creditors were paid off, courtesy of the banks, and with what is called an “aggressive marketing and competitive pricing policy” in existence, only 39 residential units have been sold notwithstanding the enormity of the developments carried out.

It will take quite an “aggressive marketing and competitive pricing policy” on top of the existing “aggressive marketing and competitive pricing policy” from now on to jump sales almost THREEFOLD to underpin the residential sales projections in this Business Plan !!!!!

Liam Byrne

Someone should tell Carroll that the "I'm too ill to come to court" has been tried by Haughey....


.....oh, hang on - he got away with it, and was given a State funder; no wonder Carroll's trying it....

jank

Times like this of national crisis calls for a quote from Shakespeare.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

tlev

jank wrote: »

Times like this of national crisis calls for a quote from Shakespeare.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

Nah, Denmark is doing okay...:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ejmaztec

It seems that the Tralee hotel "Fel's Point" is part of this teetering empire, as well as being the Rose of Tralee venue in a few days time. I hope that the repo-men don't show up in the the middle of the event, and make tv history.:eek:

Carawaystick

There seems to be a lot of of the ball playing here, I thought the principle of "play the ball, not the man" applied to boards.ie. I wouldn't wish any bad health on any person, nor gloat about it happening to anyone. That's the kind of thing that'll bite you on the backside in the long run.

That said, and even allowing for the court accepting the late application, look at the first hearing in the Supreme court, the bar is fairly low, not even the balance of probabilities, to be granted a hearing proper.

Having read the SC judgement, which is written in reasonably easy to understand language, they basically rubbished the first case and totally backed Kelly.
I thought they would bow to political pressure but they didn't. I'd be reasonably confident they wouldn't bow again. I can't see how short of the other banks repaying ACC/rabo a fair few cents in the euro, the thing'll end by not being wound up.

AlekSmart

There seems to be a lot of of the ball playing here, I thought the principle of "play the ball, not the man" applied to boards.ie. I wouldn't wish any bad health on any person, nor gloat about it happening to anyone

I`d agree with that sentiment.

One cannot even begin to imagine the pressures on Liam Carroll in the last few weeks as the inevitable crept ever nearer.

We all need to realize that Liam Carroll has family and friends who know him as an individual and his misfortunes should not fall upon their shoulders.

That said....we can also nod in the direction of the long and protracted CJ Haughey dance,which saw the "Doctors Cert" being used more than once to frustrate attempts at questioning the great man too closely.

The sad,yet undeniably true lessons being learned here relate directly back to decisions taken in smoky back rooms by long dead men in mohair suits and crombies....unluckily for us we now have to pay for the coffin and the post funerial drinks !!!

SkepticOne

Carawaystick wrote: »

I thought they would bow to political pressure but they didn't. I'd be reasonably confident they wouldn't bow again. I can't see how short of the other banks repaying ACC/rabo a fair few cents in the euro, the thing'll end by not being wound up.

It would be interesting to see what sort of PR issues would emerge should the main banks actually take on impared loans mere weeks before NAMA is established to rescue them of these same loans.

Sponge Bob

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0818/breaking9.htm

No sympathy here :rolleyes:

Ulster Bank has moved to block any sale by property developer Liam Carroll of over half his 29.5 per cent stake in food group Greencore.
The manoeuvre by Ulster, owned by Royal Bank of Scotland, comes ahead of a crucial High Court hearing on Thursday at which Mr Carroll will make a new application for an examinership of his Zoe group companies.
The survival plan for which Mr Carroll has sought court protection includes the disposal of equity positions he holds. In addition to his 29.5 per cent stake in Greencore, he also owns 29.2 per cent of ferry operator Irish Continental.

Mr Carroll invested in Greencore in 2006 when he spent €170 million buying up the 21.57 per cent stake held for years by financier Dermot Desmond. His Greencore stake was valued at €302.38 million after he increased his stake to 29.5 per cent in 2007. Falling more than 37 per cent in the last 12 months alone, the stake had a value of €67.90 million last night.
The move by Ulster involves its exercising of security over 15.9 per cent of Greencore held by Mr Carroll.
It means he will not be able to use his voting rights over these shares and the bank will also have the power to issue instructions to him in respect of those voting rights.