Liam Carroll Lives

AlekSmart

As a matter of the minutest interest.....do we have ANY indigenous builders/(stroke)/developers who are NOT in trouble at this time..?

Liam Carroll,being the Big Fish,is obviously fcukkxed,but are there any fellows out there who exercised a wee bit more prudence in the face of the oppressive Bankers !!

andrewdeerpark

Heard from a good source that for the last case (Supreme Court) his complete survival plan ran to 2 A4 pages. Talk about not having a prayer and just hoping your name and connections would win the day.

Obviously with Justice De Valera in the seat of judgement this time he will probably limp into NAMA. Today’s news reads like a PR exercise in trying to win public support for this a whitewash judgement.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0820/carrolll.html

Expect it being a bit more drawn out this time with more sob stories of his ill health and more reports from the fat cats Davy’s, Hooke & McDonald, CBRE etc.

They know they must win more support in the court of public opinion for this con to wash successfully and prevent other developers; McNamara, Crosby, Dunne & O’Callaghan falling like skittles.

Amazing if you have the power and connections you can cheat a Supreme Court judgement or so it seems. It will make a mockery of the judiciary if he wins the day however no one in Ireland cares any more its just more of the same crookery from the top levers of power. While the process to foreclose on individuals homes is streamlined.

AlekSmart

It will make a mockery of the judiciary if he wins the day however no one in Ireland cares any more its just more of the same crookery from the top levers of power. While the process to foreclose on individuals homes is streamlined.

Too bloody right it will !!

This latest wheeze as outlined by Mr Cush SC really does push the thing to it`s limits.
I think its correct to ascribe a goodly amount of public surprise at the original High Court judgement of Judge Kelly.
However the very nature of the Supreme Court decision and it`s direct language DID surprise many observers especially as there was a real expectation that Fianna Fáil desperately needed to pull something from the flaming wreck of Zoe.

What the latest episode appears to portray is the sidelining of Liam Carroll and the entrance of the Slim Shady crew,those lads whose names one can never quite remember,but who are always in the background at parties....:)

On the surface it seems that Liam Carroll may well be offered up as a sacrifice in the hope that the real Smarty Pants`s will be able to mesmerize a (presumably different) High Court Judge with a survival plan of Lewis Carrollian proportions.....

However I really DO hope that the Judiciary pause for reflection here and disregard for a moment the expensive suits,elequence and demeanour of expensively retained Senior Counsel and instead reflect a while on the INDIVIDUAL mortgage holder who will never be able to afford a flim-flam man to sweet talk a High Court Judge,but who sure as hell is entitled to be held in equally high regard by the system which that Judge represents !!! :eek:

tlev

What I don't understand is how they can question the Supreme court's decision. I thought that was the point of the Supreme court i.e the final say in the country

LostinBlanch

Andrew,

IMO It's a bloody disgrace that he got a 2nd petition. Is it a different judge? One that is more maleable? More amenable to Carrolls interests?

Hopefully the Supreme Court will throw this out like they threw the other attempt.

I'm not holding my breath though.

LostinBlanch

tlev wrote: »

What I don't understand is how they can question the Supreme court's decision. I thought that was the point of the Supreme court i.e the final say in the country

One law for "them" i.e. those who are connected, and another for us. That's becoming more blatant by the day.

andrewdeerpark

Another shameful day in this banana republic of ours with the crookery extending into the Judiciary.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0821/carrolll.html

The circle is complete with all pillars of our Irish Republic now in hock to the fallen developer elites.

Shame on you Justice John Cooke overturning the highest court in the land. No such privileges for the peasants stuck in one of the shoe box kings negative equity dingy flat!

tlev

And so it goes on...this whole thing is a farce.

BOOKWORM.1

I couldn’t agree more Andrew.

We have now witnessed the sheer hypocrisy within the system and the utter manipulation of the judicial system.

We could pose the question why a second bite of the cherry was given and you will find the answer in the political realm.

We have compromised the independence of the judiciary, made a mockery of the bank who’s owed money and fabricated a situation were by the developer and the political system take the spoils and dump it on the TAX payer.

Roll on the next election.

And they have their ****e if they think I’ll be voting YES to Lisbon!

madred006

unreal and you know the sickening thing about this is money and it obviously speaks volumes
lets imagine married couple with say 2 kids great jobs good lifestyles and then suddenly within a period of 6-8 weeks they lose thier jobs amass arrears of say 6 months do you think they would get reprieve from the banks based on the promise of rising prices in 2011-13 i dont think so they would be f..... out within 3-6 months and tough on them but here they give gaurantees to mr carroll that all will be ok and when nama is set up they will put the pressure on him because nama will probably give 60-70 cent in the euro whereas if acc had succeded today they would only get 20-30 cent and guess who is eventually going to pay for this me and you

Sand

Time to start writing to your TDs, particularly the Fianna Fail TDs. Let them know that if they vote for NAMA they will never get a vote from you, that you will actively lobby your family and friends to never vote for Fianna Fail and to vote for anyone else over any Fianna Fail candidate regardless of their good work in the local area.

If backbencher TDs know how unpopular NAMA is with the plebs, theyll be just a teeny bit worried about having been known to have voted it in.

The only other hope is that ACC appeal the decision back up to the Supreme Court. If Carroll can appeal it, surely they can too. Its absolutely shocking that the hope of the Irish people hang on a Dutch bank. Not a single iota of leadership or civic duty emanating from our elected government.

The other possibility is for the next government (fine gael/labour) to sabotage NAMA by making it a matter of policy now that if they are elected they will not honour any undertaking under NAMA and will default on the loans raised to fund it, sieze the banks until the NAMA cash is returned to the taxpayer. Nobody will lend to Lenihan for the purposes of NAMA with that threat hanging over them. Thats a pretty serious threat to make with a lot of cost attached to Irelands reputation, but it might be the only way to stop NAMA and if so its worth it.

The country is on the edge here. We will be paying for NAMA, our children will be paying for NAMA, our grandchildren will be paying for NAMA. And in 10 years time, AIB and Bank of Ireland will be back helping the golden circle to evade tax and leveraging risk crazily because they know they are "too big too fail". The gravy train needs to ****ing end. The banks gambled big. The developers gambled big. They reaped the rewards, now they need to take the hurt.

And they have their ****e if they think I’ll be voting YES to Lisbon!

If you want to do a protest vote in a smarter way than voting no to Lisbon, then punch yourself in the balls a bit outside Leinster House and youll do less harm to Ireland. Cowen will care more.

old boy

get out the lube guys, make sure that you get a massive supply, our kids grandkids and great grand kids will also require massive applications of this product, one could compare it to certain sections of our society, as it is

GREASY
SLIMEY
SLIPPERY
OILY
MESSY

me thinks the greens have one last chance of survival and and redemption, BUT will they be strong enough to redeem themselves in the eyes of the people that they have left decimetated. is it not irony that our countrys future is in their hands albait in a manner not on their agenda.

AlekSmart

This really is frighteneing stuff.

Mr Justice Cooke may well be a highly respected and erudite member of the Judicary but he would do well to ponder upon what his judgement appears to represent to the ordinary people of Ireland.

There is a growing belief amongst the ordinary (lower ?) classes that they are watching nothing less than the perversion of the course of JUSTICE.

It is beyond the ken of ordinary people,used to being fed the line of the Supremacy of the Supreme Court that that is not now the case at all.
Just as with the various referenda,it now appears that ALL Supreme Court decisions can be simply lobbed back and forward over the net until the side with the most political clout eventually wins.

I would very much hope,simply for the PUBLIC interest,that Justice Cooke`s judgement contains some morsel of sense,as it appears to be cancelling-out two of the strongest and clearest Judgements ever delivered by a superior court in Ireland.

I`m assuming that Justice Cooke has confined himself rigidly to the FACTS presented to him in the same manner as Judge Kelly and the Supreme Court Judges did.

If,on the other hand,Justice Cooke has proven more amenable to the sort of whimsy so robustly put aside by the Supreme Court then he had better be willing to explain his reasons not just in open court but,as Colm McCarthy suggested for the Bankers,perhaps even on live TV.

This is SO depressing,not merely from a legal standpoint,but rather more from the viewpoint of how divorced from reality the Judiociary can get before things turn ugly...and believe me that`s exactly where Mr Justice Cooke`s decision is leading....

The ACC`s counsel just about summed it up in a nutshell when he described the antics of the Carroll camp as being "an abuse of the process of the court". :mad: :mad: :mad:

EastWallGirl

How much was he paying his legal team and SC??

Surely they had the brains to say what document needs to be submitted and that one shareholder does not have the right to make all the decisions.

If you have a crap legal team you pay the consequences, and this was rejected all the way to the Supreme Court. You dont get a second bite of the cherry.

It is unbelievable.

SkepticOne

EastWallGirl wrote: »

If you have a crap legal team you pay the consequences, and this was rejected all the way to the Supreme Court. You dont get a second bite of the cherry.

Another worrying thing is that this now creates a precedent for other companies.

dresden8

EastWallGirl wrote: »

It is unbelievable.

Unfortunately it's not only believable, did anybody think there would really be any other outcome?

Ireland protects it's rich, workers will get turfed out of their homes in this crash, not our lords and masters.

SeaFields

dresden8 wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not only believable, did anybody think there would really be any other outcome?

Ireland protects it's rich, workers will get turfed out of their homes in this crash, not our lords and masters.

Perhaps rephrased as "Fianna Fail protects the rich"??? We dont know the dealings that when on behind the scenes here lads. There must have been some behind the scene stuff considering winding up Carrolls businesses now would have implications for setting up NAMA. (I believe this is the case from contributions by some commentators in the media - people with more knowledge than myself on how NAMA will work )

andrewdeerpark

Also did anyone spot the low key media coverage of this event; our highest court in the land overturned by a lower court, unprecident.

Plus the Indo editorial on NAMA turned favourable during the week.

The gestapo government has infested all our Republic's top brass the con is complete!

Sand

Yup, the elite are working hard to make it seem like NAMA is the only option. Fianna Fail, the banks and the developers are pushing every media at this point. You might even see shills posting here about how its hard, but required, that NAMA be introduced for the good of all Ireland. Again, turn Irelands political weakness to your advantage...attack the backbenchers. Let them know you will never give them a vote if they vote for NAMA. Let them know you will be watching when it comes to the time for votes to be cast.

AlekSmart

Also did anyone spot the low key media coverage of this event; our highest court in the land overturned by a lower court, unprecident.

I am dumbfounded that this fact alone has not been Front Page on every NewsPaper in the land...?

Surely,this turn of events renders ALL of our Legal System largely redundant,given that up until yesterday the Supreme Court`s interpretation of the Law was the ONLY interpretation going forward from any given case...?

I very much hope we are not looking at a " bought Judgement" scenario as that would threaten the core foundations of this State,and would,if proven,represent a truly appalling vista for us all.

Justice Cooke`s reasoning and more importantly the underlying elements of the application of that reasoning is eagerly awaited by myself and I hope the rest of the country as it will have to meet a far higher level of credence in order to be even half-acceptable ?....:eek:

Without doubt we are looking at a far reaching judgement here and one which, if it frustrates ACC Banks plans,could well see it`s Dutch parent exercise a far more negative view of Ireland and it`s corrupt leadership across the remainder of the EU.

Jeeez,but this Justice Cooke had better be some garguntuan Legal Brain..... :cool:

Robert Browne

The message sent out by the High Court is that the Irish legal system is just a merry-go-round. The Supreme court, is no longer the final arbiter. It has become a mere starting point for those who are dissatisfied with rulings!

This has made a laughing stock of the whole system of justice in this country. I, like tens of thousands of others, no longer believe in the justice system. There is not a shadow of doubt, that Carroll and his council could have presented all this evidence earlier. In any event, it is irrelevant, bloated nonsense of no material value. Furthermore, they were outside time limits to even petition the court and were still allowed to proceed! They have bent the rules, broken the rules and many, many, people have predicted this outcome.

For myself, I never thought our courts counted for absolutely nothing! This episode has been one of the blackest days this country has experienced since the foundation of the state. We now have no legal system!

tlev

That is the biggest thing that surprised me too. I was looking for the articles on the outrage of journalists or well anyone that the Supreme Court's opinion is worth moot. There were only a few matter of fact articles about what is going on. If we act like this we may as well just close our eyes and hope and hope for the best.

nohopengn

dresden8 wrote: »

Ireland protects it's rich, workers will get turfed out of their homes in this crash, not our lords and masters.

Yes, that's the way our system works... those with cash/power/influence protect others with cash/power/influence.

andrewdeerpark

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0824/carrolll.html

I know RTE are giving an edited version of his judgement however if that's the best of it then what a weak lame excuse for overruling the supreme court, then again did we expect anything different from Justice Cooke for what was a seismic overruling of our supreme court last week.

He (Justice Cooke) has a job for life and does not have to justify himself to no one.

LostinBlanch

I know this is probably a stupid question, but do judges have to register their interests like TDs are supposed to?*

I'm assuming they do** but thought I'd ask anyway.

*This is a general question and not aimed at anyone in particular.
**But it could be a very big assumption.

Mods feel free to edit / delete if necessary.

AlekSmart

Reading the RTE News condensed report of Justice Cooke`s decision I am struck by the lack of anything that could be deemed as new or unheard already during the two previous hearings.

One thing IS for certain and that is the choice of career for one`s chizzlers....only one show in town...The Law !!!

However Justice Cooke`s curious reported reasoning leaves Lostinblanch`s question hanging there screaming for an answer....

I know this is probably a stupid question, but do judges have to register their interests like TDs are supposed to?*

I'm assuming they do** but thought I'd ask anyway.

*This is a general question and not aimed at anyone in particular.
**But it could be a very big assumption.

With each added minute lostinblanch`s question is looking far less stupid than far more pertinent !!!! :rolleyes:

LostinBlanch

Just to confirm Alek, that I am not making any accusations of any kind in this or any other case.

But I think that with such troubled waters ahead, we would all appreciate knowing that everything was above board with the people making potentially huge decisions that could affect us all for decades to come. It probably is, but it'd be nice to know.

So if someone could tell me I'm concerned about nothing then that's fine.

AlekSmart

So if someone could tell me I'm concerned about nothing then that's fine.

That would be akin to Gerald Fleming promising you a scorching July....:D

The major problem as I see it,rests not with Justice Cooke`s somewhat elastic interpretation of what many "Ordinary" punters considered were clear legal rules and precedents on such matters,but rather the very succinct and well explained judgements of Judge Kelly AND the Judges of the Supreme Court.

It seems to me that all this clarity of purpose and direct speaking did not wash at all well with those behind Zoe Development`s application,specifically EXCLUDING Liam Carroll,who may well be nothing but a front-man for some more shadowy bottom-feeders in a very murky pool indeed.

We now have a third-time-lucky scenario to contend with on September 1 and I VERY much hope that sombody can stimulate the media to get some serious coverage in place....I wonder if the Dutch media have any good investigative reporters floating about ???

To declare that an entire multi-billion € professionally managed property consortium was operating at the sole discretion of a mentally unstable principal is stretching matters somewhat,even if thats the opinion of a learned Judge....or perhaps that`s what makes it even scarier because it could very well mirror the situation in the Corridors of Political Power also !!!! :mad:

aftermn

Why are we surprised at this turn of events? We have all seen planning refusals overturned, referendum results overturned, why should they stop at these. They will argue that this is not an overturning of the Supreme court judgement but a reaction to it. The problem with that approach is, as mentioned ealrier in the posts, there is now no final decision. If after each Supreme court decision, one can re-enter one's application suitably adjusted to take account of the ruling, we will need to re-name that court.
I still hope that the Supreme court will do it's duty, again.

If not, one has to look at the Lisbon thing as the only available means of stoping this crime.

Sand

If not, one has to look at the Lisbon thing as the only available means of stoping this crime.

You must be confused - the vote/debate on NAMA will take place in the Dail on September 16th. The vote on Lisbon will take place on October 2nd. You see how they are on different days, and different subjects?

The most urgent constitutional reform is removing automatic referendums - Irish people seem incapable of even grasping what the referendum is on.