Liam Carroll Lives

AlekSmart

They will argue that this is not an overturning of the Supreme court judgement but a reaction to it. The problem with that approach is, as mentioned ealrier in the posts, there is now no final decision. If after each Supreme court decision, one can re-enter one's application suitably adjusted to take account of the ruling, we will need to re-name that court.
I still hope that the Supreme court will do it's duty, again.

I still cling to a hope that there must be a dissenting group of Senior Judiciary here who are sufficiently aware of their Responsibilities to the PEOPLE as opposed to their constitutional role as upholders of the Rule of Law for the benefit of ALL Citizens...As far as I can tell the Constitution makes no specific reference to a duty of protection relating to Property Developers.

The Members of the Supreme Court Bench MUST surely be feeling somewhat dazed and confused at this turn of events.

Have they been undermined ?
Could we be seeing the first inklings of a genuine Constitutional Crisis with few apparently understanding the damage being inflicted on the entire Legal framework of Éire teo...??

LostinBlanch

God idea about seeing if there are any Dutch investigative reporters.

Seeing as there are no Irish ones prepared to investigate this affair further.

LostinBlanch

Sand wrote: »

You must be confused - the vote/debate on NAMA will take place in the Dail on September 16th.

Slightly off topic but I heard on morning ireland that apparently the Greens leadership are trying to get their members not to put any binding motions on them re what way they want the party to vote on NAMA until Ocotober!

aftermn

Sand wrote: »

You must be confused - the vote/debate on NAMA will take place in the Dail on September 16th. The vote on Lisbon will take place on October 2nd. You see how they are on different days, and different subjects?

The most urgent constitutional reform is removing automatic referendums - Irish people seem incapable of even grasping what the referendum is on.

Yes they are different issues, and on different dates but where are we if the courts fail to do the right thing? Once Nama is passed the country is in hock for the rest of my life, probably longer. If Lisbon is then passed we will be stuck with the FF'ers for years.

I'd rather rip it up and start again.

Sand

Slightly off topic but I heard on morning ireland that apparently the Greens leadership are trying to get their members not to put any binding motions on them re what way they want the party to vote on NAMA until Ocotober!

Yup - Ireland Inc are throwing everything at the breach to get NAMA over the finish line before it can be stopped. The reversal of the Supreme Court, the massive media assault ( TINA! TINA!), random people posting how NAMA is a tough but neccessary decision for the good of all Ireland, the attempt to stifle the Green grassroots effort to instruct their TDs votes...theres a massive push on to stifle opposition and get this last favour for the boys done.

LostinBlanch

I wonder if any politicians (or their spouses) are bank shareholders or bondholders? If so couldn't you argue that they might benefit personally from voting for NAMA?

Wouldn't that be interesting to know before the vote?

AlekSmart

Any word on what Judge is hearing Liam`s fellow directors plea today...??

old boy

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any word on what Judge is hearing Liam`s fellow directors plea today...??

or how the the decision is made on who is to judge it

SkepticOne

16:52:29

URL="http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/news/22796/carroll-lawyers-ask-for-part-of-survival-plan-to-be-kept-confidential.html"]source[/URL Lawyers for Liam Caroll's Zoe property group have asked the High Court to keep part of its business plan for survial confidential.The group's legal team has finished its renewed bid for court protection for the group, after its application for examinership was rejected by both the High and Supreme Courts.

In drawing his application for examinership for 7 companies in the Zoe group to a close, Senior Counsel Michael Cush said the 2 key frailities of the Supreme Court had been met.

Mr Cush said he had presented considerable unchallenged evidence of property values and outlined support from the banks for the application.

He also said the Zoe group which has debts of 1.2 billion euro would be solvent and have a surplus of assets over liabilities as early as 2011.

In handing in the company's business plan for survival to Mr Justice Frank Clarke, he asked that part of it be kept confidential.

The one party opposing the group ACC bank will outline its case tomorrow.

Shares have dropped 8.24% for AIB today.

LostinBlanch

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any word on what Judge is hearing Liam`s fellow directors plea today...??

Justice Clarke according to a reporter on Newstalk. So there's some slim hope that Carrolls cronies will be told to feck off back under whatever stone they crawled out from.

Of course then it'll be time to put in another appeal to the Supreme court so that's another week wasted and then the examiner won't be able to continue his work because NAMA will be up and running.

Isn't justice in this country wonderful? :rolleyes:

Takeshi_Kovacs

Could you have seen it any other way than long drawn out process, keep going back till you get the right result...

SkepticOne

Takeshi_Kovacs wrote: »

Could you have seen it any other way than long drawn out process, keep going back till you get the right result...

Very unusual for things to drag out this way after a supreme court ruling.

AlekSmart

Very unusual for things to drag out this way after a supreme court ruling.

As Skeptic One sez and confirmed for me by conversations with a few who devil away down Church St way,this entire scenario IS causing quite a few ripples.

Part of the deal is the completely new methodology being used here to challenge what had heretofore been regarded as unchallengable....
Some legal folk appear aghast at the very notion that the concept of precedence now appears to be due a make-over

He also said the Zoe group which has debts of 1.2 billion euro would be solvent and have a surplus of assets over liabilities as early as 2011.

In handing in the company's business plan for survival to Mr Justice Frank Clarke, he asked that part of it be kept confidential.

The one party opposing the group ACC bank will outline its case tomorrow.

Here we appear to be in the realms of Lewis Carroll as the figures mentioned simply do NOT come close to tallying with any view of the Countrys property market,private or commercial.

I would also hope that Mr Justice Clarke ensures that NONE of this evidence is suppressed or "kept secret".
To acceed to Mr Cush`s request is essentially thumbing a nose at the Irish PEOPLE,the very ones who are being expected to stump-up for generations to keep Zoe and it`s shareholders in clover.

It is exactly this culture of secrecy,underhand dealings, semi-official nods and winks and downright lies which has brought this State to its knees.
Mr Justice Clarke,I very much hope,will have little to do with spinning this worthless web any further....Publich and be damned I say !!!! :P

Ardent

AlekSmart wrote: »

As Skeptic One sez and confirmed for me by conversations with a few who devil away down Church St way,this entire scenario IS causing quite a few ripples.

Part of the deal is the completely new methodology being used here to challenge what had heretofore been regarded as unchallengable....
Some legal folk appear aghast at the very notion that the concept of precedence now appears to be due a make-over


Here we appear to be in the realms of Lewis Carroll as the figures mentioned simply do NOT come close to tallying with any view of the Countrys property market,private or commercial.

I would also hope that Mr Justice Clarke ensures that NONE of this evidence is suppressed or "kept secret".
To acceed to Mr Cush`s request is essentially thumbing a nose at the Irish PEOPLE,the very ones who are being expected to stump-up for generations to keep Zoe and it`s shareholders in clover.

It is exactly this culture of secrecy,underhand dealings, semi-official nods and winks and downright lies which has brought this State to its knees.
Mr Justice Clarke,I very much hope,will have little to do with spinning this worthless web any further....Publich and be damned I say !!!! :P

Well said.

LostinBlanch

AlekSmart wrote: »

Mr Justice Clarke,I very much hope,will have little to do with spinning this worthless web any further....Publich and be damned I say !!!! :P

Don't hold your breath. Case adjourned till Monday and then he may take up to 7 days before making a judgement. And he is mindful that either party could appeal to the supreme court. :mad:
Justice me bollocks

AlekSmart

Case adjourned till Monday and then he may take up to 7 days before making a judgement.

Holy Cow....As a layman I`m feeling a wee bit abandoned here right now.

I was brought up to respect the law of the land and to generally behave myself in a manner reflecting that principle.

Today,however,I find myself feeling distinctly silly for accepting such a simplistic view of society.
It now appears that I SHOULD have been far more circumspect,devious and elastic about paying any heed to the rules and conventions of the State I belong to.

What we appear to be witnessing in the High Court today is quite possibly the most blatant exhibition yet of shoddy self-serving money-talks precedence.

Recognising the need to remain civil in relation to the actions of the Judiciary I can only express my utter DISMAY at the reluctance of Justice Clarke to deal with this case in an expedicious manner.

This adjournment and the Judges advice of an even lengthier delay before delivering his judgement threatens the very essence of democratic legal principles.

There is to my mind little cogent reason for such delay,especially as the initial Kelly decision and the subsequent Supreme Court judgement were so very clearly structured and expressed.

Surely the initial decisions were of such import as to have relevance to Justice Clarke ?
Yet we now appear to have a situation where Justice Clarke is treating the entire submission as a totally new and unchartered one.

Crikey,yet again I`m with the Dutchmen here and with each and every day I am coming around to voting YES to Lisbon as it now appears certain that the Native Irish should have as LITTLE say in their own governance as possible.

It is now a sad reality that 90+ years of "Independence" has been nothing more than a squalid little experiment in self-serving political buffoonery with only a handful of beneficiaries amongst the higher echelons now proving that the Law actually does exist for their benefit.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad::mad: :mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad:

dresden8

If this was France we'd already be on our third republic.

Sand

Crikey,yet again I`m with the Dutchmen here and with each and every day I am coming around to voting YES to Lisbon as it now appears certain that the Native Irish should have as LITTLE say in their own governance as possible.

Interestingly enough, EU directives and legislation tend to be behind every positive and progressive move in the Irish political landscape. The EU tends to get a bad rap, but its got the interests of Irish people ( and by that I mean ordinary Irish people) closer to its heart than the average TD in Dail Eireann.

The less say TDs have in the running of this country, the better imo.

MrMicra

AlekSmart wrote: »

Holy Cow....As a layman I`m feeling a wee bit abandoned here right now.

I was brought up to respect the law of the land and to generally behave myself in a manner reflecting that principle.

...

What we appear to be witnessing in the High Court today is quite possibly the most blatant exhibition yet of shoddy self-serving money-talks precedence.

I have very little respect for the law. There is no reason to believe that this particular case has been fixed or that there is anything shady going on.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Recognising the need to remain civil in relation to the actions of the Judiciary I can only express my utter DISMAY at the reluctance of Justice Clarke to deal with this case in an expedicious manner.

This adjournment and the Judges advice of an even lengthier delay before delivering his judgement threatens the very essence of democratic legal principles.

There is to my mind little cogent reason for such delay,especially as the initial Kelly decision and the subsequent Supreme Court judgement were so very clearly structured and expressed.

I have a great deal of respect for Peter Kelly but his initial judgement is completely inapplicable to the fresh application.
Liam Carroll's team presented a 1 page business plan. It could be read quickly and dispatched quickly.
Liam Carroll and ACC have now submitted voluminous sworn reports. Judge Clarke has a responsibility to read these reports and to weigh the various arguments that they present. It will take him much longer to do that than it took Peter Kelly or even the Supremes.

I suspect that what Mr Clarke is trying to do is present a watertight case for whichever side he HONESTLY believes is correct using his own common sense and good judgment as well as the experts reports. He wants to send this case up to the Supreme Court structured that there will be no arguable error of law and the Supreme Court will refuse to hear the appeal. The judiciary know that they risk being dragged into the gutter with Fianna Fail here and I don't think that they want that to happen.

It is harder for Judge Clarke than it was fr Judge Kelly because the arguments that Liam Carroll's team put forward in the initial application were so flimsy that one wonders what they were thinking.
Did they actually believe that in a sense 'the fix was in'? If Peter Kelly smacked down their ludicrous application in the High Court had someone told Mr Carroll that Johnny Murray (died in the wool Fianna Fail) would 'see him [Mr Carroll] right' when the case got up to the Supreme Court?

AlekSmart wrote: »

Surely the initial decisions were of such import as to have relevance to Justice Clarke ?
Yet we now appear to have a situation where Justice Clarke is treating the entire submission as a totally new and unchartered one.

It is a new and uncharted submission, it isn't an appeal. The Companies Act lets you make a second petition for examinership within three days of a rejection by the courts.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey,yet again I`m with the Dutchmen here and with each and every day I am coming around to voting YES to Lisbon as it now appears certain that the Native Irish should have as LITTLE say in their own governance as possible.

This is a bit of an exaggeration but every society benefits when the actions of powerful people in that society are subject to scrutiny. I wonder where our Journalists have been these 40 years that everything has to be discovered through Tribunals. (The answer by the way is America, Britain, France and Canada. If you dug too deep in the 70s and 80s you were pushed out and forced to emigrate).
A Yes to Lisbon is certainly what this country needs.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is now a sad reality that 90+ years of "Independence" has been nothing more than a squalid little experiment in self-serving political buffoonery with only a handful of beneficiaries amongst the higher echelons now proving that the Law actually does exist for their benefit.

Not 90+ years only the 80 years that Fianna Fail has dominated politics here. From DeValera's theft of the Irish Press, to Lemass's hat 'factory', to Haughey and Bertie corruption is the norm with Fianna Fail. I suppose that they must have been horrified when Johnny Murray didn't 'stay bought'.

LostinBlanch

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey,yet again I`m with the Dutchmen here and with each and every day I am coming around to voting YES to Lisbon as it now appears certain that the Native Irish should have as LITTLE say in their own governance as possible.

Now that is the only reason to vote yes. Actually if that was an explicit result of voting yes. I'd be one of the cheerleaders.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is now a sad reality that 90+ years of "Independence" has been nothing more than a squalid little experiment in self-serving political buffoonery with only a handful of beneficiaries amongst the higher echelons now proving that the Law actually does exist for their benefit.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad::mad: :mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Indeed, you're not alone in this thinking.

AlekSmart

I suspect that what Mr Clarke is trying to do is present a watertight case for whichever side he HONESTLY believes is correct using his own common sense and good judgment as well as the experts reports. He wants to send this case up to the Supreme Court structured that there will be no arguable error of law and the Supreme Court will refuse to hear the appeal. The judiciary know that they risk being dragged into the gutter with Fianna Fail here and I don't think that they want that to happen.

It is harder for Judge Clarke than it was fr Judge Kelly because the arguments that Liam Carroll's team put forward in the initial application were so flimsy that one wonders what they were thinking.
Did they actually believe that in a sense 'the fix was in'? If Peter Kelly smacked down their ludicrous application in the High Court had someone told Mr Carroll that Johnny Murray (died in the wool Fianna Fail) would 'see him [Mr Carroll] right' when the case got up to the Supreme Court?

Thanks to Mr Micra for an excellent post,both for the informative content and for introducing an "appalling vista" of our very own.

Surely bringing a frivolous,even,nonsensical application to the High Court at all reflects somewhat poorly on the entire Zoe team including the redoubtable Mr Cush SC......

LostinBlanch

Now that's the question Alek and one that has been concerning a number of people I'll bet.

LostinBlanch

I just came across this site.

Re the Carroll case. I'd forgotten that Justice Clarke heads the referendum commission.

MrMicra

Of course lads, but remember Johnny didn't allow the Zoe appeal. Must have been a horrible surprise.

If you just look at the attitude that Frank Clarke has shown to property developers since he got to the high court I think you will agree that Zoe couldn't have got a worse judge nor Ireland a better one.

Clarke also knows the ins and outs of the dirty nature of the property game better than anyone else, though I've never heard anyone say that Liam Carroll paid a bribe.

Kalashnikov_Kid

If anyone has ever read Bleak House by Charles Dickens, this is really reminiscent of one of the court of law chapters. Great to see some aspects of the legal system havent changed since!

Salvelinus

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is now a sad reality that 90+ years of "Independence" has been nothing more than a squalid little experiment in self-serving political buffoonery with only a handful of beneficiaries amongst the higher echelons now proving that the Law actually does exist for their benefit.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad::mad: :mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Blame the thick as shyt electorate.

AlekSmart

Blame the thick as shyt electorate.

Oh Salvelinus believe me I know damn well where to apportion THAT blame alright,right on the toes of the constant 50% of lazy good for nothing wasters who refuse to engage with ANY form of democracy until,of course their comfort zone comes under threat.

The other 50% are the footsoldiers of destiny,the Waffen SS of the FF party who will walk walls to get their vote recorded for the Party Man.

I suppose you could call it Flynnism

though I've never heard anyone say that Liam Carroll paid a bribe.
__________________

An equally important point as the smart money is on LC being of such parsimonius nature that spending ANY amount of money would be counter to his principles !!

OT but worth a whirl...has anybody noticed an unnerving similarity between the Fine Gael PR portraits of Enda Kenny and the official German portraits of Reynard Heydrich....scary stuff !!!!!

LostinBlanch

MrMicra wrote: »

Of course lads, but remember Johnny didn't allow the Zoe appeal. Must have been a horrible surprise.

If you just look at the attitude that Frank Clarke has shown to property developers since he got to the high court I think you will agree that Zoe couldn't have got a worse judge nor Ireland a better one.

Clarke also knows the ins and outs of the dirty nature of the property game better than anyone else, though I've never heard anyone say that Liam Carroll paid a bribe.

I'll bow to your greater knowledge Micra.

Cork Boy

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh Salvelinus believe me I know damn well where to apportion THAT blame alright,right on the toes of the constant 50% of lazy good for nothing wasters who refuse to engage with ANY form of democracy until,of course their comfort zone comes under threat.

Here here, all my friends are bitching about increased taxes, corruption, etc.

So I ask them, who did ye vote for in the last election? "Uh, i didn't bother". Oh right, so ye won't make the same mistake next time - I take it ye are registered to vote? - "Uh, I assume so".

This is whats wrong with this country. Don't blame FF, blame the spanners who couldn't be bothered queing for 20 minutes after work/school to participate in a process we fought 800 years for (hyperbole at its best but still...)

Right, i'm gonna wrap up before my rant gets totally out of control!

AlekSmart

This is whats wrong with this country. Don't blame FF, blame the spanners who couldn't be bothered queing for 20 minutes after work/school to participate in a process we fought 800 years for

Ya Boy Ya Cork Boy ya....What makes it all even more insufferable is the smug thick Paddy heads on our Governing Eilte when they are honoured by the UN or somesuch civilized body picking them to "Monitor"free elections in some far flung newly emerging African statelet.

It`s great when it`s African cos the Monitor is easily picked out from the locals (Very handy for local media coverage back home).

Africa neatly ticks all the boxes in allowing us to be the smug mugs we so truly are.

However one of the defining elements of these foreign elections is the sheer committment to the idea of using THEIR vote exhibited by the "savages" who not too long ago were unable to survive without our civilizing influence....what a nation of cretins we have become.

The turnout for Lisbon 2 will be really interesting to see !!!!