Liam Carroll Lives

AlekSmart

Appropos to this thread-head we read this sunny-summers morning of just how together the good Mr Carroll was back in March of this year as he got his house(s) in order prior to drafting the supposedly single A4 page submission to Judge Kelly in the High Court.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/carroll-signs-houses-away-to-protect-against-seizure-1879539.html

I wonder if ACC can rush back to the current High Court hearing with this little nugget of an indication as to the mental faculties of Liamo,given that the current Zoe line is that their man was`nt himself at all at all to the extent of being unable to give cogent instructions to his counsel.

I wonder if the Registry of Deeds might now seek instructions as to whether or not the Transfer was in order given the allegedly non-compos mentis nature of the property owner...?

Sauce for Goosey......Sauce for Gander...

Cork Boy

From the above link...

Mr O'Dea said: "In cases where developers have given their homes as part collateral, Nama will automatically step into the shoes of the banks, gaining the right to take possession where they see fit."

The Defence Minister added that this could only happen where the developer's spouse had consented to the family home being offered as part collateral.

Oh for the love of god :rolleyes:

ArmaniJeanss

Can you actually have TWO family homes?

In my naivety I'd have thought that second and subsequent homes would be the sort of thing you'd expect to lose if and when your business went kaput, whereas you'd be allowed to keep one reasonably sized house.

AlekSmart

Can you actually have TWO family homes?

No,Armanijeanss,YOU most certainly can NOT have two such properties.....however in the alter republic,subject to your status as one of the lads,you can have as many as your Senior Counsel can note down on an A4 sheet.

Its looking startlingly as if this may have to go right down to the wire to preserve any sort of realistic State for our grandchildren to consider their own.

I`m drawn increasingly to those poigniant videos of once omnipotent leaders such as the Shah of Iran or Nicolae Ceausescu taped at the very moment of their realization that they had been found-out....It may yet come down to that here.:mad:

bush Baby

Cork Boy wrote: »

From the above link...

Mr O'Dea said: "In cases where developers have given their homes as part collateral, Nama will automatically step into the shoes of the banks, gaining the right to take possession where they see fit."

The Defence Minister added that this could only happen where the developer's spouse had consented to the family home being offered as part collateral.

Oh for the love of god :rolleyes:

If you voted Fianna Fail and were happy to ask the party for a favour through the years (so one could be returned) you're safe as houses

andrewdeerpark

Well we have lost count how many times and how many judges Mr Carroll and his esteemed legal team have been to court on this examinership.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0910/carrolll.html

When the ordinary individual is up for repossion hearing in the commercial court he/she is luck to get 5 minutes of the judges packed day with the decision muttered under his breath however if you are Carroll and Co you can keep going to court (whatever court, supreme court means nothing) until you get a favourable ruling, what a country!

I expect him to win the day this time with the seismic effect of a lower court overruling the original Supreme Court. This being skipped over by all the commentators, or is their hope that the independence of the judiciary means something?

AlekSmart

I expect him to win the day this time with the seismic effect of a lower court overruling the original Supreme Court. This being skipped over by all the commentators, or is their hope that the independence of the judiciary means something?

For sure Andrewdeerpark,in a sense the players here are irrelevant because its the damn PRINCIPLE which is at stake.
Sadly as we know all to well the Irish predisposition is to have no truck with such.

I too find the lack of appreciation of what is at stake here to be mind boggling !!!

Carroll loses second bid for examiner.

And so the bottom is reached?

Can we go up now?

Sponge Bob

Supreme Court again , probably

Sesshoumaru

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Supreme Court again , probably

Can he seriously appeal again?

Stephen

He can try to appeal but the Supreme Court can decline to hear it.

Cork Boy

My guess is once Nama is passed next wednesday (which it will be unfortunately) he'll win his appeal.

We can take small comfort in knowing at least he had to part with some of his fortune in legal fees

Btw, on the subject of NAMA being passed, does anyone think the ammendments are just lipstick on a pig or am i too biased against FF right now?

Mr.Micro

This is what the judge said about the information provided that effectively I do believe was the basis of allowing the appeal...

Posing in-depth questions, Mr Justice Clarke said the accounts were 'either presented in a very poor way or just plain wrong'.

He said he took a 'very serious view' of how the company presented its income figures, adding that there were 'many inaccuracies in the material.'

He said he had intended delivering a written judgment but was unable to deliver it because of the additional clarifications made by Zoe today.

However, Mr Justice Clarke said the clarifications had not influenced his view but had in fact strengthened it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0910/carrolll.html

What business or bank would really do business with this outfit ever again when they cannot services their debts and wanted 2 years of not paying any interest under the protection of the courts. Carroll needs to learn the reality of doing business in the real world.

amacca

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What business or bank would really do business with this outfit ever again

The ones whose best interests are served by propping him up. The ones who would like to see his debts taken off their hands and rolled into NAMA.

Follow the money.

andrewdeerpark

To be fair today’s ruling has at least helped the judiciary and demonstrated that they do have some independence and integrity (Justice DeValera and Justice Cooke excepted). So we must congratulate today's decision.

However we all know this will take another twist or two, as other posters have noticed these cases have closed the time lag between the original ACC action and the NAMA legislation, I still expect Zoe group to limp into NAMA first in line for a bailout with the ordinary punter paying the bill (new taxes on property, water charges etc).

I understand from talking to people in the know Carroll was not a flash individual like the others (McNamara, Crosby, Dunne, O'Callaghan) who did not organise infamous parties for FF at the Galway Races etc, telling Bertie what a great man he was and by the way leave us alone to inflate this property bubble. I would much prefer to see some of these characters in liquidation, this will not come to pass.

So yes a minor victory for the Irish Constitution today with this original appeals damaging precedence; Supreme Court being overturned by a lower court being somewhat repaired.

Going to TV now to watch Brian Cowen defend NAMA on prime time tonight.

Mr.Micro

amacca wrote: »

The ones whose best interests are served by propping him up. The ones who would like to see his debts taken off their hands and rolled into NAMA.

Follow the money.

yes but a judge has to look at Carroll like he is bad debtor and the probabliity that his companies are not viable especially in view of the debts that they have.
Its a no brainer. They could not survive without credit or the goodwill of the banks, which they clearly have lost also they appear to have no business acumen especially in view of the comments from the judge.The word chancer comes to mind.

blast05

I understand from talking to people in the know Carroll was not a flash individual like the others (McNamara, Crosby, Dunne, O'Callaghan) who did not organise infamous parties for FF at the Galway Races etc, telling Bertie what a great man he was and by the way leave us alone to inflate this property bubble. I would much prefer to see some of these characters in liquidation, this will not come to pass.

Yes, i know of many lads that worked for his companies over the years and the same comments always apply re him ...... unassuming, zero flash, etc. Still lives in the same modest 4-bed semi, drove an 8-10 year old Toyota Corolla around during the height of the 'good times'.
Hes the last of the big shots that i would have liked to see this happen to and as rightly commented, you can take it for certain it would not have happened any of the FF tent mafia.

Sponge Bob

Nama will not pass before late October , the government will not even publish the haircut until mid October in case the banks have to 'recognise' the haircut on their accounts .

BoI even got a €1.5bn Bond issue off today .

Carroll is to be liquidated , that is for sure .

tlev

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Carroll is to be liquidated , that is for sure .

Music to my ears

Seth Brundle

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What business or bank would really do business with this outfit ever again

You could also say the same for KPMG!

andrewdeerpark

kbannon wrote: »

You could also say the same for KPMG!

Crooke (sorry I meant Hooke) & McDonald on that list aswell.

Sponge Bob

KPMG are in for a VERY rough ride today .

You don't give a High Court judge who can evidently count a cooked set of books where the 'total' is more than the sum of the cells above (thanks to the majick of excel) and expect not to get a roasting when he runs the calculator over it himself .

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/court-rejects-rescue-bid-as-sums-dont-add-up-1884022.html

"I have to say, Mr Shipsey, I take a very serious view indeed of the quality of the independent accountant's report," he said.

"There are so many inaccuracies that it is going to give me grave difficulties to assess anything."

andrewdeerpark

Fair play to the judge he named the auditor in court: David Wilkinson of KPMG.

The average wage for an auditor is 150K (Qualified with 4 years experience+) this guy is more than likely on double, these guys get paid serious bucks and are cleaning up during the recession.

I was talking to a friend of mine and he said all the large firms are flat out with liquidations including Anglo Irish's auditors that missed Seanie Fitz's 100million plus loans: Ernest & Young.

I would like the name of the accountant for Anglo in the media spotlight, time to put these paper book cookers under pressure.

Theboinkmaster

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Fair play to the judge he named the auditor in court: David Wilkinson of KPMG.

The average wage for an auditor is 150K (Qualified with 4 years experience+) this guy is more than likely on double, these guys get paid serious bucks and are cleaning up during the recession.

I was talking to a friend of mine and he said all the large firms are flat out with liquidations including Anglo Irish's auditors that missed Seanie Fitz's 100million plus loans: Ernest & Young.

I would like the name of the accountant for Anglo in the media spotlight, time to put these paper book cookers under pressure.

Whilst I agree with your post - just to point out the €150k is nonsense (I worked in a big 4). That would be the average income of a partner not auditing seniors, managers etc. 4 years PQE as manager would be €70-80k.

Mad Finn

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nama will not pass before late October , the government will not even publish the haircut until mid October in case the banks have to 'recognise' the haircut on their accounts .

Since when did "haircut" become a recognised financial term? There's enough buzzwords out there without obscuring things with yet another.

What's the difference between a "haircut" and a discount?

Just a rant, but I do so hate superfluous jargon.

Theboinkmaster

Mad Finn wrote: »

Since when did "haircut" become a recognised financial term? There's enough buzzwords out there without obscuring things with yet another.

What's the difference between a "haircut" and a discount?

Just a rant, but I do so hate superfluous jargon.

It's been around awhile - used to use it in auditing when discussing materiality

I hate jargon too - someone in work was going on about bespoke software, why not just say customised

Sponge Bob

Mad Finn wrote: »

What's the difference between a "haircut" and a discount?

Haircuts are enforced , discounts are not .

AlekSmart

Having just returned from a whistle-stop tour of the Sligo/Roscommon/Leitrim/Longford region I have to commend Justice Clarke for remaining true to the principles of fair Play and upholding the Law.

Some might say,Thats his JOB ! and that`s true but the clarity and strength of his judgement gives some hope that both He and Judge Kelly have established a benchmark for those yet to be delivered.

One thing IS for certain is that Mr Shipsey`s standing amongst those who might yet have to utilize his services has dropped several notches...(whatever happened to Mr Cush?)
The direct and unequivocal lash he recieved from the bench will surely not have gone un-noticed in the warrens of Church Street ?

I would like the name of the accountant for Anglo in the media spotlight, time to put these paper book cookers under pressure.

Yes I would also agree 100% with andrewdeerpark on the sound-principle of a hell of a lot more naming-and -shaming than has been the norm up to now.

Irelands success as a functioning Social and Commercial entity depends on us (The Eejits) ensuring that the large body of nameless,hardly visible well-connected movers `n shakers who engineered and ran this Bubble Machine are Publicised to the maximum.

This may be the only chance WE get to ensure that they don`t get a second (or Third) chance to rape the country !

Liam Carroll`s biggest failing may yet prove to be his naievity in accepting the colourful projections which so clearly enraged Judge Clarke !!

Bock the Robber

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

someone in work was going on about bespoke software, why not just say customised

"Bespoke" has been around a lot longer than "customised".

One might instruct one's tailor to bespeak one a suit, but somehow, "bespeak me a pair of jeans" doesn't have the same ring.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Why is Liam Carroll seen as a good guy here?

Have you actually seen any of the "apartments" he has gotten away with building during the boom times? Some of them are already falling apart and others have already been bulldozed/converted! A disgrace in this day and age and set a very bad precedence for apartment development in Dublin in general that we will greatly regret in years to come.

He is not flash for a reason. It is not anything to do with good character. Liam Carroll is an unscrupulous tight@rse, with all due respect. Son of a bookmaker who grew up in Dundalk and tried making it is a bigwig property mogul. And failed miserably due to his lack of knowledge about the nuances of de big schmoke.

Liam Carroll is dead. Long live Liam Carroll.