Liam Carroll Lives

andrewdeerpark

From today's Indo

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/carroll-in-lastditch-effort-to-save-empire-1885319.html

Here we go again when is a super rich (past anyway), politically well connected man beaten, this is getting farsical now, just send in the Bailiffs and finish this off.

AlekSmart

Andrewdeerpark,ye beat me to it....Phew wot a Scorcher

This entire fiasco is now entering a phase where the Judges of the High and Supreme Courts must begin to consider the wider implications for the Law of the Zoe "team`s" attitude to it.

Those who sit on the higher benches really do need to consider the reality of the hundreds of thousands of "Ordinary" people many of whom are every bit as stretched as Liam Carroll in their own lives.

These poor wretches will most assuredly not have access to the razor-sharp legal minds of Bill Shipsey et al and when they do its measured in 15 minute segments.

It is not enough to be told that there is nothing actually illegal about what Mr Shipsey and his team are alledgedly "planning" to do next week,but to the "Ordinary" citizen it has a rancid thoroughly unpleasant odour about it.

Surely there is now sufficient concern within the Bar Council itself at the direction Zoe`s team are dragging this thing to warrant some form of PUBLIC expression of this concern ?

It is also noteable that we now have a direct Ministerial opinion on the High Court judgement in this specific case....was this wise ? or was it perhaps a tool which Zoe will now grasp to undermine Judge Clarkes decision ?

Personally I have heard enough and am in no mood,as an enforced contributor to Zoe`s future commercial wellbeing,to stand idly by as these people defy the Law as stated very clearly by several senior Judges at this time.

What we are now seeing are the initial moves to replace the rule of Law with the rule of Zoe`s Law,which most assuredly is NOT the same thing !!!

bauderline

Some things just have to play out... everyone knows this thing ain't going anywhere. It's all over bar the shouting...

AlekSmart

Some things just have to play out... everyone knows this thing ain't going anywhere. It's all over bar the shouting...

Normally,Bauderline i`d be happy to share your view.
But.....this entire thing is being played out for stakes beyond anything we`ve ever seen before.

Worse still,the players are some of the most insipid and inept gamblers we`ve ever elected to run our shop.

These people will essentially grasp at any straw in their attempts to save their chosen supporters and therefore guarantee their continuing wealth.

Now,thanks to NAMA it appears we will ALL be legally required to fund and otherwise support the lifestyles of the Professional Gamblers,both native and on secondment to Europe.

I REALLY do hope that your correct and that Mr Shipsey and his vexatious clients will be sent packing by the Supreme Court....but this time it MUST be final...we as a country need closure on this...exactly what Zoe (and perhaps the Government do NOT want)

Never thought I would be recommending a YES to Lisbon vote simply to reduce the influence these creeps have over our country !!!!

Morf3h

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote:

Why is Liam Carroll seen as a good guy here?

Have you actually seen any of the "apartments" he has gotten away with building during the boom times? Some of them are already falling apart and others have already been bulldozed/converted! A disgrace in this day and age and set a very bad precedence for apartment development in Dublin in general that we will greatly regret in years to come.

He is not flash for a reason. It is not anything to do with good character. Liam Carroll is an unscrupulous tight@rse, with all due respect. Son of a bookmaker who grew up in Dundalk and tried making it is a bigwig property mogul. And failed miserably due to his lack of knowledge about the nuances of de big schmoke.

Liam Carroll is dead. Long live Liam Carroll.

Is this sort of tripe really acceptable on boards?

Berti Vogts

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

And failed miserably due to his lack of knowledge about the nuances of de big schmoke.

So are we to infer that if Liam Carroll came from Foxrock rather than Dundalk then he wouldn't currently have the problems he has? Nonsense.

Bock the Robber

Where he came from is irrelevant.

He failed because the music stopped suddenly and he found himself without a chair.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Morf3h wrote: »

Is this sort of tripe really acceptable on boards?

Care to elaborate?

My synopsis would explain how and why he overestimated the value and demand for the Gasworks development - his failure to develop anything here no doubt played a significant part in his current financial difficulties.

MysticalRain

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Why is Liam Carroll seen as a good guy here?

Have you actually seen any of the "apartments" he has gotten away with building during the boom times? Some of them are already falling apart and others have already been bulldozed/converted! A disgrace in this day and age and set a very bad precedence for apartment development in Dublin in general that we will greatly regret in years to come.

He is not flash for a reason. It is not anything to do with good character. Liam Carroll is an unscrupulous tight@rse, with all due respect. Son of a bookmaker who grew up in Dundalk and tried making it is a bigwig property mogul. And failed miserably due to his lack of knowledge about the nuances of de big schmoke.

Liam Carroll is dead. Long live Liam Carroll.

They didn't call Liam Carroll the Shoebox King for nothing. His apartments will be tomorrow's georgian tenements.

ghost_ie

If Carroll loses in the Supreme Court he'll simply keep coming back to the High Court with amended recovery plans and dodgy figures and appeal to the Supreme Court again until NAMA comes into force. Then he'll bounce out of hospital and wave happily at the taxpayers who have bailed him out

Amhran Nua

ghost_ie wrote: »

If Carroll loses in the Supreme Court he'll simply keep coming back to the High Court with amended recovery plans and dodgy figures and appeal to the Supreme Court again until NAMA comes into force.

The whole thing does smack of a desperate stalling attempt doesn't it? And here I thought NAMA wasn't meant to help developers.

I get the feeling this is a more important question than the court deliberations themselves.

Nody

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The whole thing does smack of a desperate stalling attempt doesn't it? And here I thought NAMA wasn't meant to help developers.

I get the feeling this is a more important question than the court deliberations themselves.

Stop listening to FF if you think that is true. Here is NAMA in a nutshell for you:

1) State buys loans that are greatly overpriced from the banks for the tax payers money to save the stake holders value
2) The state will not allow ANYONE to review the numbers for five years or question what it bought or at what price (expect this to be extended by all parties as they will be far to embaressed to show the values)
3) NAMA will then to chase the loan holders to keep on paying (or more likely pay a third party such as the bank who sold it) and the developer will default on unsuitable loans where that had no security and was loaned by a company (i.e. let holding company A go under but since it has no value nothing is recovered from it or the security was a land of grass in the middle of no where)
4) NAMA will then try to "recover" the money and value of these loans by "developing" the propertly(i.e. paying the guys who failed to make money out of it to finish building stuff on it at greatly inflated cost) to ensure tha tax payer gets their worth
5) NAMA will then try to sell them on at a market price of 2007 that it expects to be back in 5 to 8 years time to recover the initial cost paid to the banks (but not the inflated cost paid to developers)
6) Tax payers will end up paying lots of money for saving the properly moguls and FF donators because they fell for propaganda
7) People who can leave Ireland because they don't want to pay for the Moguls saving

Amhran Nua

Yup, we did up a full page on it here, I was being a tad ironical. None of the arguments against are going to make a dent on the convictions of any TD though, and I'll tell you why.

They know the real reason for NAMA is to recapitalise the banks, pump money into them until the start lending again. Even the fact that we're buying anything at all for that money is a bare fig leaf.

Of course the vast majority of businesses that need loan capital at the start of every project are construction based, most don't really need that much at all for day to day operations.

So the thinking going through the heads of the rulers of this country, most of them the sons and daughters of politicians, is to pump cash into the banks to restart the property boom.

And we'll repay the cash pumped into the banks from the record tax revenues from property boom II. And when that collapses we'll just rinse and repeat.

Seriously. You couldn't make this stuff up.

AlekSmart

What a pity somebody could`nt have tried to secure a High Court Injunction to prevent Dáil Eireann debating NAMA until the Supreme Court had deliberated on Zoe`s fanciful application........:mad:

Is there nobody who can step in and end this ???

andrewdeerpark

AlekSmart wrote: »

What a pity somebody could`nt have tried to secure a High Court Injunction to prevent Dáil Eireann debating NAMA until the Supreme Court had deliberated on Zoe`s fanciful application........:mad:

Is there nobody who can step in and end this ???

Excellent suggestion except we do not have the schillings for Senior counsel, judges, lawyers, economists, estate agents and other leaner individuals (thiefs and conmen) to go to the high court over 4 sittings and a 2nd run at the supreme court.

Remember the paradox here Liam Carroll's most friendlies banker currently is Anglo Irish Bank; yes the one we own, which we here less about now since it was nationalised. What a total con... we are in effect bankrolling this unprecident legal challenge.

Nursing him into NAMA, and what a mess of a company structure Zoe is, it has over 100 companies, interlinked and based here their and everywhere (Ireland, Isle of Man, UK, Jersey etc) and NAMA is going to take these loans sort out this tax haven lawyers dream of a mess, what mugs we have as leaders. Never mind all the planning issues with key sites in Zoe group. This is all setup for auditors and lawyers to make a killing once this enters NAMA as they have a guarantee of their fees.

Liam Carroll is in worse shape the more we know since this has continued, this man and his Zoe must crash and burn for the sake of clarity if nothing else.

AlekSmart

What a total con... we are in effect bankrolling this unprecident legal challenge.

You know it...I know it.....The dogs on the street know it but yet we still flail around and hope somebody comes along with an idea which allows us to continue as we were before......Say it ain`t so,Ma !

As far as I can see this will eventually end in revolution.

turly

AlekSmart wrote: »

Is there nobody who can step in and end this ???

The IMF. You know it makes sense

andrewdeerpark

From Today's indo (Sunday)

"Following a claim yesterday that several developers were last week celebrating the Nama plan on the Costa de Sol playground of Peurto Banus -- and allegedly toasting the Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan with champagne -- a clearly annoyed Mr Cowen also threatened that developers who defaulted on scheduled payments to Nama would be dealt with by the courts."

Full text:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outraged-cowen--rips-into-bankers-1891711.html

Well the Liam Carroll saga with multiple trips to the high court a supreme court action that was appealed to a lower court and defeated a higher court is that what you mean Bifffo? While the ordinary plebs get 5 minutes of a judges packed schedule in the the commercial court. Ruin Liam Carroll and Zoe then speak to the papers.

What a con and yes those developers are toasting you in Spain!

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/supreme-court-freezes-carroll-windingup-orders-1893306.html

Surely This stuff is now very definitely deep into the fantasy world...?

I`m now totally lost as to what function the Higher Courts actually perform.
The Zoe "experience" appears to be re-writing the entire jurisprudential manual in a manner designed to dovetail with NAMA pre-requesites.

What are the Senior Counsel playing at here ?
Is it now all about some arcane Chess Game with no concern for the reality of what this is now being percieved as ?

Can any of our more legally erudite posters explain the significance of ACC`s decision NOT to appeal this latest Stay but,instead,to file a Cross-Appeal against,presumably,the DeValera judgement ....:mad:

Surely at some point,the Judges MUST see how this is debasing the entire Rule of Law in this country.....or has the rot penetrated so far into the brains as to render them mad ????

Mr.Micro

It appears if you are the likes of Carroll and you go to the courts with utter BS you are given chance after chance setting one precedent after another. Its a total sham. Lets cut to the quick and see its just a stalling tactic for Carroll to get his big paws into the golden goose or should I say TURKEY that is NAMA. No wonder our country is on its knees when there appears to be no limit to the amount of chances this chancer and his ilk are given.:mad:

Amhran Nua

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

"Following a claim yesterday that several developers were last week celebrating the Nama plan on the Costa de Sol playground of Peurto Banus -- and allegedly toasting the Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan with champagne -- a clearly annoyed Mr Cowen also threatened that developers who defaulted on scheduled payments to Nama would be dealt with by the courts."

The whole thing looks like they know something we don't. Or rather some of us loudly suspect it but have no solid evidence.

AlekSmart

It appears if you are the likes of Carroll and you go to the courts with utter BS you are given chance after chance setting one precedent after another. Its a total sham.

But Mr Micro..but,but,butter...we must remember that Mr Carroll remains officially non-compis mentis in relation to the ongoing Zoe & the Supreme Court Album.

It now appears that Mr Carroll was last in command of his faculties back in March sometime when he gifted Mrs Carroll some bricks & mortar....it seems shortly after licking the nib of his fountain pen he felt elated and began issuing orders for the invasion of Russia.....this led to his fellow directors suspecting something devious was afoot before sending for 11811 and asking for a Senior Counsel to be despatched at once....oh and yes...a Doctor as well...just in case !

That leaves us with the current cabaret line up which is every bit as good as Brendan Bowyer,Sean Dunphy,Eileen Reid,Sil Fox...and of course...Paddy Cole and his Jazzmen.
I fully expect that line up to take the stand in the Supreme Court for the great Zoe comeback gig......well who else is there left for that great impressario Mr Shipsey to call upon.....Elvis..? Michael Jackson...? Jim Morrison ...?

anonymous_joe

The guy actually was in a mental facility for a while wasn't he though?

anonymous_joe

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

From Today's indo (Sunday)

"Following a claim yesterday that several developers were last week celebrating the Nama plan on the Costa de Sol playground of Peurto Banus -- and allegedly toasting the Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan with champagne -- a clearly annoyed Mr Cowen also threatened that developers who defaulted on scheduled payments to Nama would be dealt with by the courts."

Full text:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outraged-cowen--rips-into-bankers-1891711.html

Well the Liam Carroll saga with multiple trips to the high court a supreme court action that was appealed to a lower court and defeated a higher court is that what you mean Bifffo? While the ordinary plebs get 5 minutes of a judges packed schedule in the the commercial court. Ruin Liam Carroll and Zoe then speak to the papers.

What a con and yes those developers are toasting you in Spain!

Why would a developer celebrate his liabilities being changed from one body to another?

If I owe you €100, transferring my liability to someone else still leaves me needing to pay back €100.

That story is such bullshít it's beyond belief. It's designed to pander to the kind of person who desperately needs to find a scapegoat, and coincidentally decides that someone wealthier than them couldn't be smart or hardworking, but must instead have been corrupt.

I'm not saying there was no corruption, or anything like that, merely that people want to believe this, because they don't want to accept that the real villains of this country's economy are not Fianna Fáil or developers, but the greedy masses who lapped up Fianna Fáil's policies which allowed this whole situation come to pass.

(Ignoring the fact that it's all to do with a global recession highlighting some minor inefficiencies in a small economy.)

dresden8

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Why would a developer celebrate his liabilities being changed from one body to another?

If I owe you €100, transferring my liability to someone else still leaves me needing to pay back €100.

Banks would normally have to go after those loans. They've been rolling them along with no payments due on the basis that NAMA will pay the 9 billion outstanding already and then take the whole lot off their hands.

NAMA will not bankrupt developers. It will not dump properties onto the open market, that is the point of NAMA. It was designed to pretend that bubble prices are normal. Lenihan is talking crap when he says he will bankrupt developers.

The developers are off the hook. That is the whole point.

anonymous_joe

dresden8 wrote: »

Banks would normally have to go after those loans. They've been rolling them along with no payments due on the basis that NAMA will pay the 9 billion outstanding already and then take the whole lot off their hands.

NAMA will not bankrupt developers. It will not dump properties onto the open market, that is the point of NAMA. It was designed to pretend that bubble prices are normal. Lenihan is talking crap when he says he will bankrupt developers.

The developers are off the hook. That is the whole point.

I disagree that that is the point. I think the point of all of this is saving our banks to allow us a normal working economy. (Name one economy without banks...)

Do you really think bankrupting a huge swathe of people (and the knock-on effect that would have on their employees, and the people who rely on those employees, and the people who rely on, etc, etc, etc) would really be what Ireland needs right now?

Sure, morally they might deserve to fall (I don't doubt that, though I do think that they weren't alone in being greedy), but economically that would would be horrendous for us.

Sponge Bob

Economically there is no case for keeping these zombie builders alive .

We have a third of a million empty homes to fill first before we build any more and that is before emigration really kicks in .

Kalashnikov_Kid

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Economically there is no case for keeping these zombie builders alive .

We have a third of a million empty homes to fill first before we build any more and that is before emigration really kicks in .

The unscrupulous residential builders like Carroll have already done their job and have had their day.

As you have said yourself, lets wait until we sell off some of our ghost housing estates before we even entertaining the thought of keeping these gangsters afloat.

When Carroll's defence team say that they expect full economic recovery by 2011, you know that we really have a long way to go yet.

anonymous_joe

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

The unscrupulous residential builders like Carroll have already done their job and have had their day.

As you have said yourself, lets wait until we sell off some of our ghost housing estates before we even entertaining the thought of keeping these gangsters afloat.

When Carroll's defence team say that they expect full economic recovery by 2011, you know that we really have a long way to go yet.

Gangsters!?

He built fcuking houses!

He didn't sell drugs to anyone, nor did he cause the Irish economy to lap up increasing property prices.

Grand he's done some stupid things, but calling him a ganster is just silly.

jackofalltrades

anonymous_joe wrote:

I'm not saying there was no corruption, or anything like that, merely that people want to believe this, because they don't want to accept that the real villains of this country's economy are not Fianna Fáil or developers, but the greedy masses who lapped up Fianna Fáil's policies which allowed this whole situation come to pass.

IMHO both are to blame, although the latter are being hit with negative equity, increasing taxes, wage recutions and are looking at a few savage budgets. Fianna Fail and the Developers(who made billions during the boom years) are getting off incredibly lightly.

Gangsters!?

He built fcuking houses!

He didn't sell drugs to anyone, nor did he cause the Irish economy to lap up increasing property prices.

Grand he's done some stupid things, but calling him a ganster is just silly.

You're right calling him a ganster is silly, it's disrespectful to Gangsters out there, at least Gangsters aren't bring the country to its knees economically.