Liam Carroll Lives

Diarmuid

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I disagree that that is the point. I think the point of all of this is saving our banks to allow us a normal working economy.

Yea, plough €36b into Anglo and Irish Nationwide so they can get back to the business of loaning money to small businesses & residential mortgage holders. Just like they did before :rolleyes:

turly

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think the point of all of this is saving our banks to allow us a normal working economy. (Name one economy without banks...).

I realise this is orthogonal to the point you're making, but if banks are so important to the operation of the country, why are they private?

This notion of "privatising the profits and socialising the losses" is what grates.

And as for your point about not calling Carroll and his ilk "gangsters", well, all I can say is that building substandard housing, engaging in dubious property deals, and vast personal profiteering sounds like a pretty good racket.

AlekSmart

Do you really think bankrupting a huge swathe of people (and the knock-on effect that would have on their employees,

The best guesstimates,in the current Top-Secret climate points to NAMA encompassing the needs of some 50 major developers who appear to hold some 90 Billion of "valuable stuff".

A big enough group perhaps,but not a "huge swathe".

The existing scenario appears to revolve around ensuring that not a single one of this group has to endure any REAL loss,but rather if the hang-on-in-there something or somebody will come along and see them right....

In the meantime their employees are already shafted and are being orepared for second roasting if not a third.....

This State cannot simply walk away from a Financial meltdown caused by Property derived factors and simply begin talking-up the same Property stuff all over again.

How can ANY sane non-criminally inclined Developer/Politician trot out such blatently inappropriate stuff as the latest Ballymun Regeneration nonsense and expect to be taken seriously ?

Just look and listen to the stuff being delivered in serious hushed tones to the members of the Supreme Court by what can only be described as "Well Dodgy" characters in sharp suits....

Éire Nua is here and functioning......:eek:

pat kenny

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0923/1224255062828.html


10 more days stay.

When will this farce end.

anonymous_joe

jackofalltrades wrote: »

IMHO both are to blame, although the latter are being hit with negative equity, increasing taxes, wage recutions and are looking at a few savage budgets. Fianna Fail and the Developers(who made billions during the boom years) are getting off incredibly lightly.

I doubt Fianna Fáil will survive in their current form.

Diarmuid wrote: »

Yea, plough €36b into Anglo and Irish Nationwide so they can get back to the business of loaning money to small businesses & residential mortgage holders. Just like they did before :rolleyes:

Or let them go bankrupt? Thus fcuking our economy? Saving them's not something anyone wants, but it is a necessity.

turly wrote: »

I realise this is orthogonal to the point you're making, but if banks are so important to the operation of the country, why are they private?

This notion of "privatising the profits and socialising the losses" is what grates.

And as for your point about not calling Carroll and his ilk "gangsters", well, all I can say is that building substandard housing, engaging in dubious property deals, and vast personal profiteering sounds like a pretty good racket.

Banks have always been private. They're private because, well, that's how these things work.

Privatising the profits and socialising the losses is obviously unpalatable, but doing nothing is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The best guesstimates,in the current Top-Secret climate points to NAMA encompassing the needs of some 50 major developers who appear to hold some 90 Billion of "valuable stuff".

A big enough group perhaps,but not a "huge swathe".

The existing scenario appears to revolve around ensuring that not a single one of this group has to endure any REAL loss,but rather if the hang-on-in-there something or somebody will come along and see them right....

In the meantime their employees are already shafted and are being orepared for second roasting if not a third.....

This State cannot simply walk away from a Financial meltdown caused by Property derived factors and simply begin talking-up the same Property stuff all over again.

How can ANY sane non-criminally inclined Developer/Politician trot out such blatently inappropriate stuff as the latest Ballymun Regeneration nonsense and expect to be taken seriously ?

Just look and listen to the stuff being delivered in serious hushed tones to the members of the Supreme Court by what can only be described as "Well Dodgy" characters in sharp suits....

Éire Nua is here and functioning......:eek:

Nama's not really about saving them. If they are saved, (if) it will be a side-effect, and probably an unwelcome one.

For all the shíte spoken about developers, they also brought a lot of wealth and work to this country. They've also now brought a degree of economic trouble. But most of that trouble comes from America tbh.

The state wants to talk up those property prices because there's a chance that they might actually make a profit off of all of this which could be a huge boon for the country. Ya never know. It's a case of luck.

Seth Brundle

pat kenny wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0923/1224255062828.html


10 more days stay.

When will this farce end.

Right in time for Lisbon voting!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I doubt Fianna Fáil will survive in their current form.

fingers crossed
Hopefully the greens follow them!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

For all the shíte spoken about developers, they also brought a lot of wealth and work to this country. They've also now brought a degree of economic trouble. But most of that trouble comes from America tbh.

Minister Lenihan, is that you?
Firstly, a degree? WTF?
Secondly, why aren't other countries having a NAMA then? Why are other countries coming out of recession when we are still plummeting?

anonymous_joe

kbannon wrote: »

Right in time for Lisbon voting!

fingers crossed
Hopefully the greens follow them!

Shame about the greens. I genuinely thought they'd not betray their principles so quickly and totally.

Minister Lenihan, is that you?
Firstly, a degree? WTF?
Secondly, why aren't other countries having a NAMA then? Why are other countries coming out of recession when we are still plummeting?

It's a global recession. They didn't cause it. They're a problem, a big one, but not the cause. That was what happened in America.

Other countries weren't as dependant on a property bubble as we were.

Dubh Geannain

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's a global recession. They didn't cause it. They're a problem, a big one, but not the cause. That was what happened in America.

Other countries weren't as dependant on a property bubble as we were.

TBH the sh*t was going to hit the fan in this country sooner or later ala Japan in the 90s. The global downturn has just sped things up.

LostinBlanch

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'm not saying there was no corruption, or anything like that, merely that people want to believe this, because they don't want to accept that the real villains of this country's economy are not Fianna Fáil or developers

Because neither FF or Developers have been found to be guilty of corruption in the past? Yeah right.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

. . but the greedy masses who lapped up Fianna Fáil's policies which allowed this whole situation come to pass.

Ah, a variation of it's not FF and the developers and bankers fault . . . it's everybodys! I quoted this in another thread but I think it deserves an airing again.

2,000 individual loans make up the 77billion in toxic bad loans the tax payer is taking on.
150 individuals are responsible for 50 billion of the toxic bad loans the tax payer is taking on.
32 Billion of the bank bailout is belonging to just two banks , chaired by two individuals who have since retired Michael Fingleton and Sean Fitzpatrick

Yeah, you're right it's not the fault of FF or their Developer or banker buddies. :rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

TBH the sh*t was going to hit the fan in this country sooner or later ala Japan in the 90s. The global downturn has just sped things up.

Probably would have down the line alright.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Because neither FF or Developers have been found to be guilty of corruption in the past? Yeah right.

I didn't say that. I merely pointed out that others have to shoulder a portion of the blame. Also, I endeavoured to point out that attributing blame is retarded when you're still trying to fix things.

Ah, a variation of it's not FF and the developers and bankers fault . . . it's everybodys! I quoted this in another thread but I think it deserves an airing again.

And it is. All of FF's policy flaws were designed to appeal to voters. That's not anyone's fault, merely an unfortunate side effect of democracy. As for the bankers and developers, they were profiting from a bubble. People tend to shy away from negative thinking when possible. It causes such problems.

jackofalltrades

anonymous_joe wrote:

But most of that trouble comes from America tbh.

No, most of the trouble comes from the poor policies of the government, to paraphrase the IMF. The only people who are going on about Lehman Brothers causing all our financial woes are Fianna Fail and their supporters. The collapse of that bank was the straw that broke the camels back that was our economy.

The state wants to talk up those property prices because there's a chance that they might actually make a profit off of all of this which could be a huge boon for the country. Ya never know. It's a case of luck.

Property prices need to fall in the medium term so the country can gain back some of economic competitiveness that it has lost, NAMA making money by property prices rising would hurt the economy.

All of FF's policy flaws were designed to appeal to voters. That's not anyone's fault, merely an unfortunate side effect of democracy.

A lot of their policies were designed to appease the banks and the developers aswell not just the electorate. The govenment were entrusted by the people to run the country and not leave it in pieces financially, but they did and it is their fault.

aidan24326

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Or let them go bankrupt? Thus fcuking our economy? Saving them's not something anyone wants, but it is a necessity.

So you're suggesting that letting Anglo go bust would fcuk our economy? No way. That bank should have been let rot.

Shame about the greens. I genuinely thought they'd not betray their principles so quickly and totally.

Well it's pretty clear they didn't really have any principles to begin with. Trouble is they don't really have much in the way of good workable policies either. I can see them taking a roasting at the next general election, they may even go the same way as the PDs.

It's a global recession. They didn't cause it. They're a problem, a big one, but not the cause. That was what happened in America.

You are obviously a diehard FFer as you are bending over backwards to defend them. Look we all know that there are global economic factors at work, but the fact is that the staggering incompetence and waste of this Fianna Fail goverment over the last decade and more put us in a situation where we were wide open to taking the very full brunt of the global downturn when it did come.

If such incompetence took place in any private organisation heads would roll. But our goverment politicians preside over one fiasco after another and just carry on regardless, smirking dismissively at the little people while they go about their daily business of trousering every cent of expenses they can get their grubby paws on.

anonymous_joe

jackofalltrades wrote: »

No, most of the trouble comes from the poor policies of the government, to paraphrase the IMF. The only people who are going on about Lehman Brothers causing all our financial woes are Fianna Fail and their supporters. The collapse of that bank was the straw that broke the camels back that was our economy.

Ireland's fcuking tiny! What broke our economy was external factors primarily, with our own inefficiencies secondly.

Property prices need to fall in the medium term so the country can gain back some of economic competitiveness that it has lost, NAMA making money by property prices rising would hurt the economy.

Wages definitely need to fall, property probably does too, but so long as losses can be minimalised, what's the problem?

A lot of their policies were designed to appease the banks and the developers aswell not just the electorate. The govenment were entrusted by the people to run the country and not leave it in pieces financially, but they did and it is their fault.

To a tiny extent. Politics is far more about appealing to people than individuals. Hence the Tories in England promising to cut back on public spending and also promising not to cut back on public services.

aidan24326 wrote: »

So you're suggesting that letting Anglo go bust would fcuk our economy? No way. That bank should have been let rot.

Look at Iceland. The collapse of their banks was caused the global economy to lose faith in them. I don't want Anglo saved, but I don;t think letting them die would have achieved anything.

Well it's pretty clear they didn't really have any principles to begin with. Trouble is they don't really have much in the way of good workable policies either. I can see them taking a roasting at the next general election, they may even go the same way as the PDs.

Yeah. Probably will.

You are obviously a diehard FFer as you are bending over backwards to defend them. Look we all know that there are global economic factors at work, but the fact is that the staggering incompetence and waste of this Fianna Fail goverment over the last decade and more put us in a situation where we were wide open to taking the very full brunt of the global downturn when it did come.

I'm a Labour/FG voter actually.

I just think it's retarded how many Irish people are busy blaming people and fighting any attempts to save the economy. Nama's far from ideal but it's a solution. We need solutions more than we need to blame.

Save that for the next general election, when we all know FF will be fcuked hard.

If such incompetence took place in any private organisation heads would roll. But our goverment politicians preside over one fiasco after another and just carry on regardless, smirking dismissively at the little people while they go about their daily business of trousering every cent of expenses they can get their grubby paws on.

That's the fault of the little people. We live in a democratic nation. I can't remember who said 'you get the government you deserve' but make of that what you will. Fianna Fáil were put in place by the masses.

turly

anonymous_joe wrote: »

turly wrote: »

if banks are so important to the operation of the country, why are they private?

Banks have always been private. They're private because, well, that's how these things work.

Ah, that'll be some new definition of "work", then.
So we're condemned to a future of forever bailing out private banks because, well, that's how these things work?

Fat_Fingers

Bottom line is Liam Carroll not a "businessman" but a chancer like most of the so called property developers. If he was any good he wouldn't go bust at first sign of trouble. And anyone who did see Liam's "apartments" will know immediately why they call him Shoe Box King.

Blowfish

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ireland's fcuking tiny! What broke our economy was external factors primarily, with our own inefficiencies secondly..

Lehman collapsed in the second half of 2008. The property crash here was well underway by then.

Global factors definitely had an influence, but the recession was going to happen here even without that.

anonymous_joe

turly wrote: »

Ah, that'll be some new definition of "work", then.
So we're condemned to a future of forever bailing out private banks because, well, that's how these things work?

Banks in Ireland don;t go bankrupt that often, but in countries like America it happens all the time.

There was an article I read in the New York Times last summer about a man whose job was dealing with bankrupt banks. He'd been let go in the early 2000s because there was no call for it, and the Treasury Department had called him back up becaise they needed him all of a sudden.

They mentioned that hundreds of American banks went under in the 80s.

Blowfish wrote: »

Lehman collapsed in the second half of 2008. The property crash here was well underway by then.

Global factors definitely had an influence, but the recession was going to happen here even without that.

Of course it was, but never as quickly or in such a way as to cause this much damage.

We'd have been able to deal with it if it hadn't been for the global aspects of it all.

Saadyst

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Banks in Ireland don;t go bankrupt that often, but in countries like America it happens all the time.

There was an article I read in the New York Times last summer about a man whose job was dealing with bankrupt banks. He'd been let go in the early 2000s because there was no call for it, and the Treasury Department had called him back up becaise they needed him all of a sudden.

They mentioned that hundreds of American banks went under in the 80s.


Of course it was, but never as quickly or in such a way as to cause this much damage.

We'd have been able to deal with it if it hadn't been for the global aspects of it all.

What are you talking about? Please specifically mention what external factors contributed 'primarily' to the mess Ireland is in just now?

This is of Ireland's own doing - the construction industry accounted for 15% of the national GDP! Selling houses to each other! It's all related - the high costs of doing business, high labour costs - all connected with the price of land/rents/homes.

In the UK for example, I believe the housing market only started to go downhill AFTER the credit crunch - people couldn't get loans, pay them back, and so on. But here, the property market is LEADING this recession. Isn't there around 300k empty homes in this country?

External factors are worsening this country's situation because there are less buyers as countries deal with this own problem - but you're foolish to believe that this is not of Ireland's own making.

Nate--IRL--

anonymous_joe wrote: »

We'd have been able to deal with it if it hadn't been for the global aspects of it all.

What a staggering statement.

Nate

Sand

There was an article I read in the New York Times last summer about a man whose job was dealing with bankrupt banks. He'd been let go in the early 2000s because there was no call for it, and the Treasury Department had called him back up becaise they needed him all of a sudden.

They mentioned that hundreds of American banks went under in the 80s.

Hundreds of US banks going down in the 1980s? Were they reduced to third world status by the horrible stigma of a bank failing? They must have been, right? The US is like Somalia? Right?

anonymous_joe

Saadyst wrote: »

What are you talking about? Please specifically mention what external factors contributed 'primarily' to the mess Ireland is in just now?

This is of Ireland's own doing - the construction industry accounted for 15% of the national GDP! Selling houses to each other! It's all related - the high costs of doing business, high labour costs - all connected with the price of land/rents/homes.

In the UK for example, I believe the housing market only started to go downhill AFTER the credit crunch - people couldn't get loans, pay them back, and so on. But here, the property market is LEADING this recession. Isn't there around 300k empty homes in this country?

External factors are worsening this country's situation because there are less buyers as countries deal with this own problem - but you're foolish to believe that this is not of Ireland's own making.

Foolish? Nah. We might have made the problem, but it's such a big problem because of how quickly it all happened. And that's where external factors, i.e., a great big globabl recession and a global lack of trust in banks definitely accelerated the development of our own problems.

The way I look at it, this country was run inefficiently, even recklessly, by a government I've always voted against, but in a bouyant global economy such inefficiencies were capable of being hidden. Thus we suffer now.

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

What a staggering statement.

Nate

Is it? Without a global recession, we'd have definitely gone into recession in a few years time, but the government would have had more time to deal with the issue, and the EU would probably have stepped in to help us.

Consider it this way; if you crash your car into a parked car, you'll do less damage than if you crashed into a car speeding towards you. More time to react would have allowed us deal with the issues more effectively.

(Assuming that the general populace had gotten rid of FF. )

Sand wrote: »

Hundreds of US banks going down in the 1980s? Were they reduced to third world status by the horrible stigma of a bank failing? They must have been, right? The US is like Somalia? Right?

We have about five banks. So losing one would have a much bigger impact here. Right?

Morf3h

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Foolish? Nah. We might have made the problem, but it's such a big problem because of how quickly it all happened. And that's where external factors, i.e., a great big globabl recession and a global lack of trust in banks definitely accelerated the development of our own problems.

The way I look at it, this country was run inefficiently, even recklessly, by a government I've always voted against, but in a bouyant global economy such inefficiencies were capable of being hidden. Thus we suffer now.

Is it? Without a global recession, we'd have definitely gone into recession in a few years time, but the government would have had more time to deal with the issue, and the EU would probably have stepped in to help us.

Consider it this way; if you crash your car into a parked car, you'll do less damage than if you crashed into a car speeding towards you. More time to react would have allowed us deal with the issues more effectively.

(Assuming that the general populace had gotten rid of FF. )


We have about five banks. So losing one would have a much bigger impact here. Right?

Jesus finally someone with something logical and rational to say! Reading this thread has made me want to leave Ireland, such was the level of retardedness.

anonymous_joe wrote:

I just think it's retarded how many Irish people are busy blaming people and fighting any attempts to save the economy. Nama's far from ideal but it's a solution. We need solutions more than we need to blame.

Another good post

jackofalltrades

anonymous_joe wrote:

Without a global recession, we'd have definitely gone into recession in a few years time,

And the banks would have probably been in a far worse financial state given the way they were giving out credit.

but the government would have had more time to deal with the issue

The NTMA had serious reservations about Anglo Irish Bank back in 2007.
Wasn't there also a Swiss bank or investment group that advised its clients to sell Irish Bank stocks about a year before the collapse of Lehman brothers(can't remember who they were).
The current government is incompetent, no matter how much time you give them.

amacca

Bumpy McBumperton

Anyone know whats the latest in the Liam Carroll legal saga? Ive lost track of it recently. Are the assets still on course to limp into NAMA, Is yet another appeal pending, Is the threatened firesale still being held at bay, will ACC get its hundred odd million? etc etc

Whats the story with Zoe as it were.

Nate--IRL--

Next supreme court episode is on Oct 2nd I believe.

Nate

andrewdeerpark

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Next supreme court episode is on Oct 2nd I believe.

And if he looses that expect another high court sitting.

I expect the crook to win this time and the supreme court will use the NAMA legislation as the excuse. We will all then own Zoe and the 100 companies plus the planning mess around the proposed new site for Anglo. What a shambles and very few care .....

LostinBlanch

You're right Andrew, this whole thing has been nothing more than a charade from the start.

But then again, this is Ireland. What do people expect? A legal system to actually work in the interests of the citizens, or just those who have the right connections?

AlekSmart

But then again, this is Ireland. What do people expect? A legal system to actually work in the interests of the citizens, or just those who have the right connections?

And herein lies the REAL issue.

There was at the beginning a sense of confidence that the higher courts would at least bring a sense of closure to what was always a highly suspect piece of Legal work.

I don`t believe anybody within or without the Legal System ever envisage the Zoe Legal Team being facilitated in quite literally reducing the entire Irish superior court system to a smoking wreck.

Some of the clearest,directly expressed and entirely understandable judgements EVER delivered in the High Court were treated in a cavalier fashion by what now appears to be a team of confidence tricksters.

At some juncture,perhaps in centuries to come,we may well have eminent personages attempting to understand what went wrong and exactly when the Citizens of Ireland finally gave up on believing in the integrity of the Law.

This entire charade stands as a vivid testimony to the level we have been dragged down to and it is debatable if we as a people will ever manage to shake this dirt off our shoulders !!!

amacca

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

And if he looses that expect another high court sitting.

I expect the crook to win this time and the supreme court will use the NAMA legislation as the excuse. We will all then own Zoe and the 100 companies plus the planning mess around the proposed new site for Anglo. What a shambles and very few care .....

Well you can count me among the very few that care. I don't think he should have got a third and fourth bite of the cherry. It seems insane to me, you had your chance you got to appeal.....there was nothing to support the appeal, you are outta here my friend and heres a hefty fine for wasting the courts time and so on and so forth.

Trouble is, I'm not sure what to do about it...sent a letter to local TD but the whole thing is being swallowed up by Lisbon (understandably) in the media not to mention upcoming budget, talk of pay cuts etc

what can actually be done? If you go through normal channels you will just be fobbed off with the "that would be an ecumenical matter" approach.

Amhran Nua

amacca wrote: »

what can actually be done? If you go through normal channels you will just be fobbed off with the "that would be an ecumenical matter" approach.

Join the party that will actually take the option of locking down whatever NAMA has done and refusing to honour NAMA agreements (see sig)?