Tubular Repair

Home:Ballyhoura

Hey there!

On my new Orbea Orca which I bought recently, I got a set of Corima tubular wheels. At the time they seemed like good value but now they seem like the most expensive things I have ever bought (in the long run) as a result of punctures, even though I only ever use them as race day wheels. Day one, I punctured the rear Vredestein Fortezza TriComp (just a small cut) and replaced with a Continental Sprinter. Couple of weeks later the front Vittoria Corsa Evo CX gave up in the same manner (just a tiny cut) and replaced it with the new Vittoria Corsa Evo CX II (320TPI) which only lasted a couple of weeks racing (around 600kms) until it punctured coming over the line in a Time Trial (despite having smashed my PB, first time doing the TT on the new bike with deep section rims). A nasty thorn was the cause this time, but it is still basically a new tyre with that delicate thread on the CX's that usually wears off immediately still there! This evening I threw on my spare CX II using the tub tape (my usual method) and I am just beginning to realise I have spent over €200 on tubs as a result of punctures in just two months (just found two new Coni Competition tubs, usually €60 but got them for €30 in the for sale section of weight weenies, some good bargains to be had over there I must admit, off topic but I picked up a new set of 09 Keo Carbons including cleats and cleat covers for €60). I'm not sure what the right way to go is, buy cheap tubs to cut my losses when they puncture and have to replace them or go for really good quality expensive ones and hope they live up to their reputation (certainly cannot be said for the Vittoira CX's anyway, and now I've ordered a set of the Open Corsa clincher versions for my Ksyriums), or just somewhere in between? What do ye think?

My question is this (yes, only getting to it now! Sorry ): I know it is possible to repair tubulars but it is considered a painful, time consuming, delicate job usually considered to be not worth your while, and only achieved successfully by experienced mechanics but is there anywhere I can send my tubs off to get repaired. I tried the super glue trick on one of them but it simply doesn't work on tubs. If there was anyone (in Ireland preferrably) who can do this I would be very interested to hear about them, especially as I am building up a collection of them! It wouldn't be worth my while for just one or two but to get a couple done at a time might be a good idea.

Let me know if ye can help me out in any way, because at this rate I'm not sure I can afford to run a set of tubular wheels (I'm not sure many people would be at this rate) and may be forced to sell them on for a set of clinchers instead which I really don't want to do because I really love them! Help me save my Corima's and let me know any hints, tips or opinions ye may have to offer me. Thanks in advance for your help, I genuinely really appreciate it. Cheers, H:B

Home:Ballyhoura

Something like this is what I'd be interested in, just a bit closer to home! Would the legendary Mr. Skeffington be able to help in a case such as this or would this be too much for the mighty man I have heard so much good stuff about recently? Haha :rolleyes:

Lumen

I can't help with your question about repairs, but have you considered using Conti 4000 tubulars?

The clincher versions are reported to be tough enough; I assume the specs are pretty similar given that they are called the same thing.

edit: your reference to "Coni Competition" - are these the 4000s? Assume you haven't used them yet?

edit #2: no, the Competition and 4000 are not the same. Would Sprinter Gatorskins be sacrilege?

Home:Ballyhoura

Lumen wrote: »

I can't help with your question about repairs, but have you considered using Conti 4000 tubulars?

The clincher versions are reported to be tough enough; I assume the specs are pretty similar given that they are called the same thing.

edit: your reference to "Coni Competition" - are these the 4000S? Assume you haven't used them yet?

edit #2: no, the Competition and 4000 are not the same. Would Sprinter Gatorskins be sacrilege?

No haven't used them yet (that is the Continental Competitions), although they are top of the range and I saw a good few of them on bikes of the Tour de France this year (in pictures that is). Not sure I would go with the Gatorskins to be honest, they seem to me like more of a bomb proof training tyre. It's not really a tyre that I was looking for as a solution, as I feel you can just get caught out on every brand there is, it just called unlucky-ness! Some told me there is nothing better than the Vittoria's, then when I punctured they were like, jeez, cheap vittoria's get a good set of conti's for yourself and online they often get terrible stories about cutting up after just 1000kms.

I also found out here that only some can be repaired (the ones with stitching under the base tape) and these days as it is nearly taken for granted that if you flat a tub, you just bin it and replace it, I would imaging most are the seamless kind which Jobst Brant says the only option you have is to just "chuck it"! I know the GP4000 is a seamless design so no good for repairing, not sure about the rest of the models or the Vittoria's either (even though this dude seems to be able to repair a Vittoria, it looks like the old version, not sure would things have changed on the CX II 320TPI version!)

Also, on the pricing section of Tire Alert tubular tyre repairs, can you see which category my repairs would fall under so I know roughly how much I can expect to pay to get this done? I must also email them to see do they to European repairs (specifically from Ireland) as it seems like the site is based in the USA!

Quigs Snr

Theres just too much manual labour in repairing tubs to make them very economically viable to repair these days. Not like the good old days I am told by one of the vets in my club who use to be out stitching up repaired tubs every weekend apparently.

If you are riding tubs you need to be (a) Rich (B) Lucky or (c) Sponsored. Barely worth it for a racer in Ireland these days sadly.

niceonetom

This thread had decided any lingering tubs .v. clinchers debate I was having over my next set of wheels.

OP - have you tried that latex pit-stop stuff? It's supposedly good for smallish holes...

tunney

The problem is not tubulars but your choice of tub. A time trial tyre and a few Victorias? Tt tyres aren't suitable for Irish roads even for TTs. Victorias have a reputation for shredding. Conti compeitions black chilli are the choice for a fast puncture resistance tyre.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

This thread had decided any lingering tubs .v. clinchers debate I was having over my next set of wheels.

I have a slightly romantic vision of sitting by the fire on dark winter nights stitching tubs together, but I don't really see it happening either.

The weight savings don't seem that attractive, unless you go for mental light tubular tyres. Conti 4000 tubs are 270g claimed, whereas 4000 clinchers are 205g + 63g ish for a Race 28 Light Tube. So there's no weight saving at all on that (fairly comparable) tyre choice.

Obviously tubular rims are lighter, by maybe 120g per rim. So a total bike weight saving of <250g, and weight at the rim down by ~20%.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

weight at the rim down by ~20%.

That's it really, and that probably is significant at the very top level. I certainly notice the difference in rim weight on different wheels I've used, but only really when accelerating from low speeds and the actual performance difference is almost certainly negligible. I'm nowhere near convinced on the 'ride' improvements either - it would have to be a serious improvement for me to consider a €50 puncture tax.

You forgot to factor in the 270g tyre you have to carry around instead of the 70g tube btw. Slipping.

I repair my tubes now, and I actually enjoy it, so I probably am the type that would attempt tubular repair myself.

Sorry OP - tubs .v. clinchers is the new helmet debate. someone mention lance, that'll advance the conversation...

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

Sorry OP - tubs .v. clinchers is the new helmet debate. someone mention lance, that'll advance the conversation...

Lance rides tubs... Bontrager tried to persuade him to ride clinchers but he was having none of it. If it's good enough for Lance...

corkandproud

Home:Ballyhoura wrote: »

but I picked up a new set of 09 Keo Carbons including cleats and cleat covers for €60

Where did you get the new pedals H:B, and would they be a good choice for a first timer on cleats.

Tks, CAP

Chips Lovell

Send them away to get them fixed, it´s crazy to be binning tubs after one puncture. This guy has gotten a few decent write ups.

Lumen wrote: »

I can't help with your question about repairs, but have you considered using Conti 4000 tubulars?

The tubular versions have a terrible reputation. If you´re getting Contintental tubulars, I reckon Competiton is the way to go.

Raam

This thread is sealing the deal for me, deep section clinchers it shall be, with ceramic bearings of course.

Home:Ballyhoura

Quigs Snr wrote: »

If you are riding tubs you need to be (a) Rich (B) Lucky or (c) Sponsored

Unfortunately I don't fall into any of these categorys, well at least not yet anyway!

niceonetom wrote: »

OP - have you tried that latex pit-stop stuff? It's supposedly good for smallish holes...

No not yet, I thought that stuff was just for temporary repair and designed to get you home, but if you think it a good long-term solution for those little cuts that do the costly damage, then I think I may invest in some and do a bit or experimentation. Google here I come!!!

tunney wrote: »

The problem is not tubulars but your choice of tub. A time trial tyre and a few Victorias? Tt tyres aren't suitable for Irish roads even for TTs. Victorias have a reputation for shredding. Conti compeitions black chilli are the choice for a fast puncture resistance tyre.

First of all, VITTORIA is the brand of the tyres, not VICTORIAS!!! No worries, made me laugh anyway . I didn't know that the Sprinters were TT specific tyres, where does it say that? (in the PBK catalogue it classifys them under the Sporive/Race category) I just read that it was ideal for shorter road events, the specialist for circuit races or the criterium. Strong and durable enough to use as a training tire with four layers of Continentals proprietary Polyamide casing for excellent puncture protection and very high mileage! I have not had a problem with this tyre yet, seems very good on terms of not cutting up. I think you were correct in saying that Vittoria's shred a bit too easily, despite them being recommended to me as THE ONE AND ONLY TUB CHOICE! Haha (they are classified solely under the ProTour category in the PBK catalogue, do you think this is sending out a message...i.e low milage race tire only). Did you mean to say that Conti Competition are the best option, as PBK's catalogue says they are ideal for Sportive/Race/ProTour. Competition 22 Tubular Tyres have tested the liquid crystal fibre Vectran under the hard professional conditions of grit, pot-holes and long hard mileage with phenomenal lab results of the new puncture protection. Sounds good eh? Can't wait to try them out, might be the solution to all my problems although I doubt it's that simple! Fingers crossed

Lumen wrote: »

Conti 4000 tubs are 270g claimed

Vittoria Corsa Evo CX II 320TPI's are 245g claimed, actually 241g in real life which is pretty amazingly light I feel, but now I'm thinking are they too light...choosing weight savings over functionality is not good in my opinion.

corkandproud wrote: »

Where did you get the new pedals H:B, and would they be a good choice for a first timer on cleats.

I got them on the for sale section of WeightWeenies so keep a look out there and on Adverts.ie aswell as the Cycling Adverts and Bike Parts for Trade sections of this forum if you want a good value second hand pair (or new if you're lucky like me!)

However, I would recommend these Look Keo Easy pedals, I was thinking of getting them for my spare training bike until I found the other ones. They are light, cheap and made by Look (one of the best brands aswell as Shimano and some would say Time, others Speedplay)

el tonto wrote: »

Send them away to get them fixed, it´s crazy to be binning tubs after one puncture. This guy has gotten a few decent write ups. I reckon Competiton is the way to go.

Might give him a go alright sometime in the future if he accepts them form Ireland, do you know if he does or if postage fees are included in the prices shown or are they paid completely separately by me?

I sure hope Conti Competitions are the way to go, because I've got a pair of them in the post on my way! Funny thing is I will be hoping for another puncture some time soon just so I can try them out!!! Not really, just messin although it will be the one time I won't have a puncture in ages. Man that would be good, haha we'll just have to wait and see!

Single Malt

el tonto wrote: »

Send them away to get them fixed, it´s crazy to be binning tubs after one puncture. This guy has gotten a few decent write ups.




The tubular versions have a terrible reputation. If you´re getting Contintental tubulars, I reckon Competiton is the way to go.

If the puncture is a nick in the tyre (as OP stated) and is common on it cannot be repaired, as just a few cut threads will cause a blowout at 140 psi. the blowout may not happen immediately, but the cut will unravel with mileage.

blorg

Home:Ballyhoura wrote: »

Might give him a go alright sometime in the future if he accepts them form Ireland, do you know if he does or if postage fees are included in the prices shown or are they paid completely separately by me?

From his site:

our prices to the left include posting the tub(s) back to you (mainland UK - or £2 extra post for EU / EIRE )

Lumen

More fuel to the fire...

Some things to consider, from a guy who likes tubulars and clinchers equally... (so no bias!)

I've found the "on the road hassle-factor" of the wheels to be about equal. Clinchers are easier to fix if you flat. Anyone saying otherwise is tubie biased... it's silly, come on. That said, clinchers are much more prone to flats than tubies, so while the tubie might be a pain in the ass to repair on the road, you rarely have to do it, so the hassle-factor evens out. One thing worth noting though- repairing a clincher on the road (assuming you have a good pump and its a simple flat, not a ripped tire) results in a wheel ready for anything. A tubie repair means you can get home, and maybe even enjoy the rest of the ride if you don't lean on the corners or descents too hard... because the spare tire isn't properly glued.

Tubies flat safer. On a fast descent, that's a good thing. On the other side of the coin, Tubies can slide off the rim on long descents in very hot weather due to the heat melting the glue. Not a pleasant experience, though not at all common, either. I've never had it happen, myself.

Good ride quality is really something that happens when you have an excellent combination of wheel and rubber... ie, there are some clincher wheel/tube/tire combinations that roll much better than some tubular wheel/tire combinations, and vice versa. Anyone telling you one format is universally better across the board is biased and silly. As for which wins between the best clincher setup and the best tubie setup? Impossible to answer... because if you ask ten clincher guys and ten tubie guys, you won't even get them to agree on what the best setup is for that format.

The weight factor is pretty open and shut. In a weight showdown, clincher rims have excess material on the rim working against them... there's just no getting around that.

My emphasis. Indicates again that tyre choice is critical.

Anyway, I sometimes wonder what sort of conditions these weight weenies ride in. I came across a post yesterday where some guy said that deep section rims caused him no problem in "normal (5-8mph) winds". Ha ha.

Lumen

This is interesting, the first mention I've come across of running tubs at lower pressure for better ride quality in crap conditions without sacrificing rolling resistance.

If it snows again this winter it'd be interesting to run some tubular cyclocross tyres, e.g. Challenge Fangos, reviewed with others here. When I was using metal studded clinchers in the snow last winter the main limitation on grip was tyre pressure.

Tubulars were the second generation bicycle tire. The first step up from a solid rubber donut was a cloth cylinder with a strip of rubber bonded to its outer perimeter to serve as tread. An inner tube is sewn inside (which is why they also were called "sew-ups" in the olden days) and the stitched side gets glued to a shallow trough on the rim.

Underside of a well-used tubular:

When mounted, there should be a narrow strip of cloth over the stitches, protecting them from wear.

Tubular tires require tubular rims:


Clincher rims require complex curves and extra material reinforcing its acute angles. Tubular rims have simple curves and require less material to be as strong as a clincher rim. The net difference is that a tubular rim is lighter than a clincher rim.

The tubular tire (with its captive inner tube) also tends to be lighter than a clincher tire and inner tube. Put those two "lighters" together and the difference can be pretty substantial.

Clincher rims can cause pinch flats because they have sharp shoulders where the hooked edge mates with the bead of the tire. A tubular rim only has gently rounded surfaces facing the tire, making it almost impossible to get a pinch flat. Which means a rider can safely run lower tire pressure for better traction in the rain (or snow) without risking snakebites.

In the olden days, the carcass of hi-end tubular tires was made from some pretty exotic fabrics, like silk. These were legendary for their suppleness and durability ...and expense.

A byproduct of its delicate fabric carcass, the tubular's tread could not be vulcanized because the carcass wouldn't tolerate the high temperatures needed for vulcanization. The tread was essentially raw rubber and it needed to age and oxidize to toughen the rubber so you wouldn't wear them out on the first ride. In the olden days, new tubulars were stored in a cool, dark place mounted on old rims (referred to as "stretching rims"). Tubular tires "ripened" in from a few months to a couple of years.

Mounting the tubular requires either tubular glue (applied to the tire and the rim) or a special double-sided tape. The tape is much less messy but makes it impossible to change tires on the road (glue can be reused, the tape cannot).

Tubular carcasses are made from much more mundane materials now (like cotton) and the tread has been chemically reformulated so neither vulcanization or aging is required. But they still are a PITA to mount and a royal, raging hemorrhoid to repair. And you can't do it on the road so you have to carry a whole spare tubular tire. There's even a traditional method for folding the spare tire so it can be lashed under your saddle with the sticky glued side tucked away in the middle and the tread on the outside, protecting the entire bundle.

Because of the way a clincher mounts, excessive tire pressure can blow it off the rim. More pressure just makes a tubular stick all the tighter. However, not all tubulars made for roadracing run high tire pressures. The Vittoria tubulars I prefer, for instance, have a max pressure of only 110 psi. Some clinchers are rated for up to 160 psi.

Track racers, OTOH, do run tubulars at insanely high pressures. Their tires are pumped up so hard they ride like a buckboard but they're riding on an ultra-smooth surface so, to them, it's worth the trade-off.

Part of the beauty of a tubular is that, unlike a clincher, it's rolling resistance doesn't so much depend on air pressure. You can run the same tire at a lower pressure on a rough road, get a less punishing ride, not risk pinch flats and not lose any significant speed.


So why do people still use them (especially pro roadies)? Well, they are lighter. And the tubular's more flexible carcass gives it incredible grip, especially cornering at 10/10ths. There's virtually no chance of a pinch flat and, most importantly, when they do go flat, they will not roll off the rim, even in a hi-speed descent. If you have a flat on a hi-speed descent while riding clinchers, it you have an ounce of sanity, the first thing you'll do is stop. Fast.

And especially when it comes to pro roadies, they have a hired lackey mounting and maintaining them, so all the mess and bother doesn't enter in to it.

You can't overestimate the traditional aspect of tubulars. Some roadies would sooner let their legs go hairy or wear black socks than ride clinchers.