Research A Soldier

Ponster

Tippds wrote: »

... Replicas would be my best bet i'd guess.

Yep. The time limit to claim WWI medals has expired I'm afraid. If someone more knowledgeable doesn't come along I'll let you know the name of the company that I used a few years ago.

They came engraved and boxed in a presentation case.

Tippds

Ponster wrote: »

Yep. The time limit to claim WWI medals has expired I'm afraid. If someone more knowledgeable doesn't come along I'll let you know the name of the company that I used a few years ago.

Thanks very much, thought that alright.

MandyF

Hi there. I'm looking for advice on how to find info on two of my ggfathers and a great granduncle.

GGfather William (Bill) Harding - think he was with the Royal Munster Fusiliers,
GGfather Patrick Dineen, he was with the Royal Munster Fusiliers, service no 10216
GGuncle Patrick Coleman - also with the Royal Munster Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion, service no 6904. I've found him on the CWGC and he was killed on 9/05/1915.

I'm finding it very difficult to find any more information so any help would be appreciated. I can't believe that I've only just found out about these brave men in my family...
Great forum btw.
Mandy

R.Dub.Fusilier

Just had a quick look and have attached the medal index cards of the three soldiers mentioned above. I will have a look later and see what I can find.

enfield

COLEMAN, PATRICK. Rank: Private. Regiment or Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers.
Unit; D Company, 2nd Battalion. Date of Death:09/05/1915. Age at Death,20. Service No:6904. Born in St Fingarr’s, Cork. Enlisted in Cork while living in Cork. Killed in Action. Supplementary information; Son of John and Hannah Coleman, of 19 Rochfords Lane, Bandon Road, Cork. Grave or Memorial Reference: Has no known grave but is commemorated on Panel 43 and 44. Memorial: Le Touret Memorial in France.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Here is the scroll of Patrick Coleman.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Here is the SWB Roll for Patrick Dineen.

johnny_doyle

Findagrave entry for Patrick Coleman

Not much info there I'm afraid.

He appears to have died the day after the absolution of the Munsters
http://www.rmfa92.org/rue-du-bois-on-8-may-1915/

johnny_doyle

William Harding's medal index card carries the text 1743 KR 1912

this translates to paragraph 1743, Kings Regulations, 1912 :

"Medals which, at the end of 10 years, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the deputy director of ordnance stores, Royal Dockyard (Medal Branch), Woolwich to be broken up."

MandyF

Thank you so much for all the information you've listed here.....and for the docs you've so kindly put up too. Am I right in saying so that William Hardings medals were never 'collected'?

And is there any way to find out what Patrick Dineens wounds were? The family story is that he lost an eye, and wounded both an arm and a leg. Also, from talking to an uncle today, he says he remembers my Grandfather (Patricks son) mentioning that Patrick had been granted a military house in the Northside of Cork City. Did this kind of thing really happen? Were soldiers returning from war granted housing?

I was looking at the list of men commemorated on the war memorial in Cork City (an online list, I haven't got near the actual memorial yet) and Patrick Coleman doesn't appear to be listed under the RMFs. Anyone have any ideas as to why that is?

johnny_doyle

MandyF wrote: »

Am I right in saying so that William Hardings medals were never 'collected'?

Also, from talking to an uncle today, he says he remembers my Grandfather (Patricks son) mentioning that Patrick had been granted a military house in the Northside of Cork City. Did this kind of thing really happen? Were soldiers returning from war granted housing?

Soldiers had their campaign medals sent to their last know address as a matter of routine. If returned or not deliverable for whatever reason, they were held for 10 years in the hope that the soldier would make a claim. After 10 years they were destroyed.

Officers didn't automatically get their campaign medals; they had to claim them.

The best site for a background to the WW1 campaign medals and Medal Index Cards is the UK National Archives page at

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/medal-index-cards-ww1.htm

One thing on Patrick Coleman's card that surprised is the word Died. Usually that's for soldiers who died of natural causes or accidents. In Soldiers Died in the Great War and in the Ireland's Memorial records he is listed as Killed in Action which ties in his being commemorated on a plaque.

The CWGC site allows you to export RMF soldiers killed on the same day and it's a long list. 4 are listed as being D Company casualties including Patrick Coleman. This doesn't mean they were the only D Company casualties; just that these are the only 4 where it's recorded.

COLEMAN PATRICK 20 Private
GALLAGHER PATRICK 27 Corporal
HARTNETT DAVID 17 Private
SEALY-KING CHARLES 20 Lieutenant


There were housing schemes for soldiers and sailors returning from WW1. I don't know about Cork specifically

enfield

There was a proposed scheme during the war to give returning soldiers land that never came to fruition. The plan was to narrow the Nore. Now that's forward thinking for you.
Tom.

Conchir

Could someone get some info on a Private Thomas O'Neill of the Irish Guards, 2nd Btn, who died 03/12/1917. Specifically, any info on where he lived/enlisted as I think I may be related, but I'm not sure. I realise I don't have much info to start with, but I hope it's enough to go on for someone here. Thanks in advance

EDIT: His age would also be very helpful if someone out there can somehow find it.

enfield

O’NEILL, THOMAS. Rank: Private. Regiment or Service: Irish Guards.
Unit; 2nd Battalion. Date of Death: 03-December-1917. Service No: 10063. Born in Kilrosenty, County Waterford. Enlisted in Manchester, Lancs, while living in Kilcomeragh County Waterford. Killed in Action. Grave or Memorial Reference: Has no known grave but is commemorated on Panel 1 and 2. Memorial: Cambrai Memorial in Louveral in France.

He is not in any of the Waterford papers.
Tom

Conchir

Could possibly be who I'm looking for, Waterford is correct anyway. Anything at all for age, my Thomas would have been around 29/30/31 at the time he died. Thanks very much for that though.

enfield

Sorry old bean, that's all I have.
Tom

johnny_doyle

the records for Irish Guards are still held by the regiment and can be obtained by writing to them at :

Records Officer
RHQ Irish Guards
Wellington Barracks
Birdcage Walk
London
SW1E 6HQ

There are 4 medal index cards (MIC) for Thomas O'Neills, Irish Guards, that I can see on Ancestry. 2 appear on CWGC.

no 9761
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4037319/O'NEILL,%20T

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=o'neill&GSfn=t&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GScntry=7&GSob=n&GRid=56181478&df=all&

CWGC states age 28. Son of Bridget.
MIC shows British War Medal and Victory Medal awarded
Irelands Memorial records states born Cappagh. 1st Battn
Soldiers Died in the Great War states enlisted Dungarvan. KIA.

no 10063
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1755685/O'NEILL,%20THOMAS

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=o'neill&GSfn=thomas&GSbyrel=all&GSdy=1917&GSdyrel=in&GScntry=7&GSob=n&GRid=56028956&df=all&

no age info on any records.
MIC shows British War Medal and Victory Medal awarded
Irelands Memorial records states born Kilrosenty. 2nd Battn
Soldiers Died in the Great War states enlisted Lancs. Resident Kilcomeragh. KIA.

MandyF

Hi there. Can I ask some more questions? On Patrick Dineens medal record (is that what it's called?), it says 'SWB list A/425' What does that mean? Does anyone know? Also, the silver wounds roll gives his date of enlistment. How would I go about finding out more about his service? Do I just check out where the RMFs were, or would it be possible for me to focus on him?

Where would I be able to find out the dates of enlistment for the other two (Patrick Coleman and William Harding)? And last question (for now anyway ;-) ), I see that William Harding was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, then in the Royal xxxxx Regiment (don't know what that is) and then the RMFs. Would it have been typical for a soldier to move from one regiment to another like that? Forgive me if this is a silly question.....

And lastly, thank you so much for the help you've already given me. I now have so much more information on my newly discovered relatives, all thanks to you. Thank you.

johnny_doyle

MandyF wrote: »

Hi there. Can I ask some more questions? On Patrick Dineens medal record (is that what it's called?), it says 'SWB list A/425' What does that mean? Does anyone know? Also, the silver wounds roll gives his date of enlistment. How would I go about finding out more about his service? Do I just check out where the RMFs were, or would it be possible for me to focus on him?

Where would I be able to find out the dates of enlistment for the other two (Patrick Coleman and William Harding)? And last question (for now anyway ;-) ), I see that William Harding was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, then in the Royal xxxxx Regiment (don't know what that is) and then the RMFs. Would it have been typical for a soldier to move from one regiment to another like that? .

'SWB list A/425' is the pointer to the Silver War Badge rolls.

The other records that should have enlistment dates are the soldier's service record and/or pension record if entitled to a pension. Unfortunately, the records are not complete so filling in all the details that we'd like for a particular soldier isn't always possible (in most cases it's nigh on impossible).

Different cases lead to different records sets.

A soldier who died during the period 1914-1921 will (should) have an entry in the CWGC database, an entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW), Ireland's Memorial Records (IMR) if an Irish soldier (or in an Irish Regt or of Irish parents), or De Ruvigny's database/book. He should also have a medal index card (MIC) if he served in a theatre of war and a service record. A new online resource is the wills of approx 9000 Irish soldiers but your men don't appear to be there. You may find an entry on Irish War Memorials website and Findagrave.com.

A soldier wounded and discharged should have a medal index card, service record, possibly a SWB entry and possibly a pension record.

A soldier who served in a theatre of war and survived should have a medal index card and a service record.

A soldier who didn't serve overseas and survived should have a service record but won't have a medal index card.

A soldier who didn't serve in a theatre of war but was killed during the Easter Rising, for example, or died from disease or as a result of an accident in England/Scotland/Wales/Ireland won't have a medal index card but should have an entry on CWGC.

In some instances, if the soldier had a brother who served, you may find the brother has a service or pension record that mentions the man you're looking for.

Each battalion was required to keep a war diary but ordinary soldiers rarely get a mention by name. Other sources can be a bit hit and miss. Local newspapers carry some info about enlistment, being sent to the front, being wounded, on home leave or killed/missing/taken prisoner.

Some employers, schools and colleges have produced lists of people who served as well as those who died e.g Guinness, Trinity College. In some cases, researchers such as Enfield have produced books (Wexford War Dead, Waterford War Dead etc) which have gathered together CWGC, SDGW, IMR and newspaper data.

It's not uncommon to find soldiers moving between battalions within a regiment or from one regiment to another. In some instances this would involve moving from a training battalion to a front line battalion within the same regiment or to another regiment if it had suffered large casualties.

Later in the war, some battalions who suffered casualties were disbanded and their remaining men were sent to other battalions/regiments. In some instances men were compulsorily transferred to meet the needs of the army e.g. cavalrymen weren't needed and could be transferred en masse or it might be that a man has a civilian skill that might be better used elsewhere e.g. a driver to the Army Service Corps, a miner to a Tunnelling Company etc. Without the service record for your man it would be hard to say why he has moved between regiments.

One other thing that comes up on medal index cards and service records relates to a soldier being discharged to Class Z Reserve. The armistice came into effect on the 11th Nov 1918 but it was not the end of the war. Men were demobbed to Class Z and were liable to immediate call up should hostilities start again. The war officially ended in June 1919 with the signing of the Treaty of Versailles and the Class Z soldiers were released from their call up obligation.

Doesn't apply in the case of your men but soldiers who were discharged and who then died as a result of active service before August 1921 were entitled to be commemorated by the CWGC.

The men who fought early in the war were generally those who were already in the army/navy, were reservists with previous service or territorial soldiers with part time pre-war service.

enfield

What a well written analysis. Well done Johnnie.
Kind regards.
Tom.

MandyF

Thanks so much for the explanations Johnny. Hope you don't mind if I copy and paste your reply? The rest of my family are very interested in anything I find out about our family....especially these lads and I know I'll never be able to explain it so easily and clearly.

MandyF

Another question? But one that you may not be able to answer. Patrick Coleman was an RMF. He died in France and is commemorated in LeTouret cemetery. Yet he isn't listed on the Great War memorial in Cork City. One side of it lists out the RMFs...and there are two Colemans on it, but not mine. I had a look at the Irish War Memorials website listed in Johnnys post and there's no sign of him on any Irish War Memorial.

So...does anyone have any ideas as to why he's not mentioned alongside the rest of his comrades from the 2nd Batt? It was mentioned in an earlier post that it was unusual that his records said 'Died' and not 'Killed in Action'. Would this be the reason?

Apologies for all the posts.....but since I found out about the Patricks and William, I can't stop thinking about them. Hence all these posts. Thanks for everything so far.

enfield

Died; Death by drowning, suicide, accident or illness.
Killed in Action; The soldier was killed during engagement with the enemy.

'The Great Sacrifice' is a book brought out to commemorate the Cork casualties of the Great War two years ago. It listed 3,800 men and more names are surfacing. This happens with all county casualty rolls. I presume the Cork War memorial was erected before this particular book was compiled and at a time when casualty databases were few a far between and inaccessible by the public.
Cheers.
Tom.

johnny_doyle

MandyF wrote: »

Thanks so much for the explanations Johnny. Hope you don't mind if I copy and paste your reply? The rest of my family are very interested in anything I find out about our family....especially these lads and I know I'll never be able to explain it so easily and clearly.

copy & paste is fine. Hope they find it useful.

johnny_doyle

MandyF wrote: »

Another question? But one that you may not be able to answer. Patrick Coleman was an RMF. He died in France and is commemorated in LeTouret cemetery. Yet he isn't listed on the Great War memorial in Cork City. One side of it lists out the RMFs...and there are two Colemans on it, but not mine. I had a look at the Irish War Memorials website listed in Johnnys post and there's no sign of him on any Irish War Memorial.

So...does anyone have any ideas as to why he's not mentioned alongside the rest of his comrades from the 2nd Batt? It was mentioned in an earlier post that it was unusual that his records said 'Died' and not 'Killed in Action'. Would this be the reason?

Apologies for all the posts.....but since I found out about the Patricks and William, I can't stop thinking about them. Hence all these posts. Thanks for everything so far.

the inclusion/exclusion of a man on a war memorial would not be linked to the Medal Index Card or official circumstances of death. War memorials were local initiatives and each were run differently. Some included only those who were killed/died while others also list those who served. In some instances, they were run by a committee who looked at newspaper cuttings, data from local support initiatives (e.g. prisoner of war comfort committees) and took nominations from the local population/members of the family.

It may be that the family didn't want or ask for a name to be added - politics, pacifism, family rifts.

On some war memorials you will find men listed who have nothing to do with the local area whose name has been added because a brother/sister or the parents had moved there at some point and wanted to make sure that their family member was commemorated.

The Imperial War Museum has some photos re Lt Charles Sealy-King, the RMF officer killed the same day as your man. I can't see them online but you might be able to see them by going to the IWM. Should show something of the place that the RMF were just before the battle

Tracing officers can be easier than tracing enlisted/conscripted men as their Commissions/promotions appear in the London Gazette. Lt Sealy-King was commissioned a 2nd Lt 27th January 1912 in the 4th Battalion, RMF

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28575/pages/647/page.pdf

jos28

Could some kind person help me find something on my Great uncle. I've had a look through the records on Ancestry but I may has well be looking into a bush. He was William Glover, born Tralee 13 July 1890. He was in the Royal Engineers. As far as I know he enlisted with his brother in Oct 1913. He survived the war and I think he settled in Dagenham. I'd like to find out what happened to him after the war. I don't if he married or had children and would love to find out.
Thanks in advance.

enfield

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Tralee_Urban__part_of_/Rae_Street/292033/

MandyF

Hi All,

Just wanted to update you on my progress, seeing as I have you fabulous people to thank for where I am at the moment tracing my family history. We managed to locate my GGrandfathers (Patrick Dineen) medals. I've been passing most of what I find out to an Uncle, who himself used to be in the army and he (I don't know how) managed to find them. So he now has them on prominent display where they deserve to be.

Thanks so much for all your help, and who knows, I may be back with some more questions at a later stage. (who am I kidding, I know I'll be back!)

Mandy.

fm230549

johnny_doyle wrote: »

There are 2 Michael Whelan's from Co Wexford listed in Ireland's ww1 casualties. Both Royal Irish Regt and both killed 19th Oct 1914. No 7389 aged 30 from New Ross and 8917 from Piercetown

A Michael Whelan is on the 1911 census in India with 1st Battn Royal Irish aged 27 from Piercetown, co wexford

Michael Whelan (Reg no 8917) was my Grandfathers brother. He died at the battle of La Bassee in France on 19th October 1914. His name is recorded on the Le Touret memorial (panels 11-12) Pas de Calais, France.

His military census record for 1911 just records his name, rank, regiment etc. but does not say where he was stationed at the time.

I would be interested in any evidence you may have of him being in India at the time. The family were never aware of any such posting.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Here is Michael Whelans medal index card