Research A Soldier

johnny_doyle

the entered theatre date should read 19/8/1915. Apologies for the error.

For a brief overview of the RMF during WW1 :

http://www.1914-1918.net/rmf.htm

His number is quite low indicating that he was likely to have enlisted before the outbreak of war.

John Mason

i hope someone can help me

i have found out that my great grandfather was in the royal irish fusiliers

he is on the 1911 census with the following information

"privates 2 royal irish fusiliers - b company royal irish fusiliers, quetta,
baluchistian, india"

william mcgrath
born 1880
bray, county wicklow

he went on to become a Sargent in the Irish army

does anyone where i can find out more information about this company - google is not my friend today :(:(


EDIT i have this reference number - does it include his soldier number?

RG14PN34991 SD16 ED8 SN9999

arnhem44

Hi irishbird,could you put up the census record you found?,the second battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers were in Quetta(India) at the outbreak of war in 1914 being brought back to England arriving at Winchester on 20 November 1914.Quetta was the capitol city of Balochistan(now given as part of Pakistan), part of the North West Frontier.The British had outposts here which were bordering with Afghanistan.The NWF campaign carried on after 1918.

John Mason

arnhem44 wrote: »

Hi irishbird,could you put up the census record you found?,the second battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers were in Quetta(India) at the outbreak of war in 1914 being brought back to England arriving at Winchester on 20 November 1914.Quetta was the capitol city of Balochistan(now given as part of Pakistan), part of the North West Frontier.The British had outposts here which were bordering with Afghanistan.The NWF campaign carried on after 1918.

it was on the english census

Census Record: John Smith
Personal Information
Name William Mcgrath
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender
Age 31
Estimated Year of Birth 1880
Occupation Nil
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Bray Wicklow
Military Rank Privates 2 Royal Irish Fusiliers
Institution Name B Company Royal Irish Fusiliers
Institution Description B Company Royal Irish Fusiliers, Quetta, Baluchistan, India
Enumerator Information
Address Quetta Baluchistan
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN34991 RD641 SD16 ED8 SN9999
Administrative County Overseas Military
Enumeration District 8

is there anyway of finding out where he was posted when he came back to england? i downloaded his records today but it doesnt give any informatioin at all except for the fact he was charged for being drunk on duty :-)

but there is nothing to say where he was and or what he was doing - was he rifle, calvary etc.

johnny_doyle

irishbird wrote: »

EDIT i have this reference number - does it include his soldier number?

RG14PN34991 SD16 ED8 SN9999

from Ancestry, his number appears to be 7730

Ponster

You're probably best off finding out what the Royal Irish Fusiliers were doing in India rather than looking for that info in his service records.

enfield

This may be of interest, from 'The Wicklow War Dead.'

McGRATH, JOHN. Rank: Driver. Regiment or Service: Royal Engineers. Unit: 495th Field Coy. Date of Death: 12-November-1918, the day after the war ended. Age at Death; 39. Service No: 367883. Supplementary information; Son of the late Thomas McGrath, of Bray, Co. Wicklow; husband of Margaret Carroll (formerly McGrath), of 50, Ardeer Square, Stevenston, Ayrshire. Grave or Memorial Reference: C. 121. Cemetery: Alexandria (Hadra) War memorial Cemetery in Egypt.

John Mason

I just thought I would up date you all on what I found (this is the 3rd time I have attempted to post this, I keep getting logged out)

Well, got a copy of his war records and medal roll. They are not in the best of conditions and I couldn't read at lot.

He was in the India when the war broke out. I found him on the 1911 UK census in Quette, India (now part of Pakistan).

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : at Quetta in India. Returned to UK, arriving at Winchester on 20 November 1914, where it came under orders of 82nd Brigade in 27th Division.

19th December 1914 : landed at Le Havre.

The history of 27th Division

2 November 1916As regular units from the further garrisons of Empire arrived back in England, many having waited until a Territorial unit had gone out to replace them, they were formed up into three Divisions, numbered 27th to 29th. The 27th was formed at Magdalen hill Camp near Winchester in November-December 1914 and was rushed as a much-needed reinforcement to France. Shortage of some types of units were filled by Territorial units taken from other Divisions. It embarked at Southampton and landed at Le Havre on 20-23 December 1914 and then moved to concentrate in the area between Aire and Arques. The Division subsequently took part in these actions:

1915
The action of St Eloi
The Second Battle of Ypres

Moved to Salonika, arriving in early December 1915. : transferred to 31st Brigade in 10th (Irish) Division. Not really sure what he did with the 10th Divsion, as he wasnt transferred there unil the November and the information i found below doesnt mention anything about November onwards.

10th Division

On 27 June, the Division received orders to perpare for service at Gallipoli.

1915 and 1916
Divisional HQ embarked at Liverpool on 9 July, and by the end of the month most units had assembled on Lemnos. On 6-7 August 1915 the Division landed at Suvla Bay, less 29th Brigade which went to ANZAC Cove. The main body made an attack on Chocolate Hill 7/8 August. Parts of 29th Brigade took part in actions on Sari Bair 6-10 August and at Hill 60 later that month.
Gallipoli

On 29 September 1915 the Division withdrew from Gallipoli and moved to Mudros, and on 4-5 October went on to Salonika, landing there 5-10 October. Took part on 7 and 8 December 1915 in the action at Kosturino, in the retreat from Serbia. Brigades of the Division were in action at the Karajakois (30 September to 2 October 1915) and Yenikoi (3-4 October 1915).
Salonika


September 1917 : moved to Egypt for service in Palestine.

On 18 August 1917, the Division was ordered to concentrate at the port of Salonika for embarkation. Early in September it moved to Egypt, completing assembly near Rafa by 16 October 1917. The Division was involved in the Palestine campaign thereafter. Between April and June 1918, a major reorganisation took place as many British units were replaced by Indian ones.
Palestine

On 12 November 1918 the Division concentrated at Sarafand, ready for moving back to Egypt. By 1 December it was at Cairo.

He was discharged from the Army on the 2nd April 1919, with a pension of 6 shillings a week.

The discharge papers are torn but on the "characteristics of discharge" it says "my foot".

he was charged twice of drunkenness : -

Once on the 19.10.1914 and we think it says drunkenness in front of an Officer. He was confined to Barracks for 5 days.

and 10.09.1900 (not 100% sure of this date) and it says "drunk in picquet". there is an Army Barracks called Picquet Barracks in Plymouth but "picquet" also means on duty - so am not sure about what it means.

All his employment records, say that he was very good, stable and reliable but he had 5 counts of "ordinary drunkenness".

His medal roll states he received 3 medals, The Star, The Victory and the British but I think there is a lot more then this. I know the record numbers changed and there is a second number on the medal roll, which I need to check.

I was out with my gran today, this is her dad, and asked her if she remembered him ever speaking about the war. She all she remembers is him saying he hated fighting with his hands, that is horrible to actual see the people up close that you are killing. He also told her that he had to walk through mustard fields and it burned really badly and he had wear special armour on his legs which made it difficult to walk.

He went on to become a Sargent in the Irish Army, and I have been hassling my brother (he is in the Irish Army) for months about getting his Irish records as I have been told that he would have had to give a detailed history of what he done in WW1, so hopefully, there will be more details in his Irish records.

My brother was there today when I was explaining everything to my gran and I think I have whet his appetite, so fingers crossed he has an interest now and will get the records for me. He thinks from reading the records that he may have been a gunner.

My grandmother also said that once a year in Bray there was march for soldiers killed in the war, and he would be out marching and that he had two shoulders covered in medals, he was really proud of his medals.

I asked my gran what happened to medals and she started laughing - apparently, all my aunties and uncles used to bring them to school and swap them for pencils and rubbers but that her father would have been horrified because he was so proud of them.

I ask my gran about John McGrath name above and whether he would be a relation but she didnt know but thought it was possible.

So that's all I have for now, hopefully my brother will come through with the Irish records and I am going to see if I can find out about the other medals.

thanks for all the help

IB

kabakuyu

He also seems to have been awarded the Silver War Badge,which was awarded to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness during World War,there is a receipt in his records for badge No. B191351(check this yourself in case I am wrong about the number),He also seems to have had service in the Wicklow Artillery from March 1900,I think this was a militia unit but someone else may be able to help you out with that one.
Regards,
KK

arnhem44

kabakuyu wrote: »

He also seems to have been awarded the Silver War Badge,which was awarded to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness during World War,there is a receipt in his records for badge No. B191351(check this yourself in case I am wrong about the number),He also seems to have had service in the Wicklow Artillery from March 1900,I think this was a militia unit but someone else may be able to help you out with that one.
Regards,
KK

The Wicklow Militia were the Wicklow Royal Garrison Artillery Militia,militia units were active up till 1908 I believe but stand to be corrected.

John Mason

arnhem44 wrote: »

The Wicklow Militia were the Wicklow Royal Garrison Artillery Militia,militia units were active up till 1908 I believe but stand to be corrected.

Yeah, his records say that he signed up 1900 as a volunteer, when was 18 (really 16) and then enlisted when he was 21.

I will look at those medal records when get home - they have it blocked in here

EDIT: forgot to say he had malaria as well :-0

John Mason

kabakuyu wrote: »

He also seems to have been awarded the Silver War Badge,which was awarded to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness during World War,there is a receipt in his records for badge No. B191351(check this yourself in case I am wrong about the number),He also seems to have had service in the Wicklow Artillery from March 1900,I think this was a militia unit but someone else may be able to help you out with that one.
Regards,
KK

hi, we think that is the number but weren't sure what it related to ? where would i check that number?

arnhem44

irishbird wrote: »

hi, we think that is the number but weren't sure what it related to ? where would i check that number?

The records office in Kew in London,the number will be listed there and requires a visit.I'll take the number and the lads on the Great War forum may be able to check it,they have loads of the pages scanned themselves.It won't reveal much but may give you a small hint.

arnhem44

Hi irishbird,here is a copy of the entry courtesy of a member on the Great War Forum



And a link to the regulations,the meaning of Para 392/xvla

http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/Para392Introduction.html

John Mason

OMG - thank you


sorry, i havent checked in here in ages :):):):):):)

spikeprint

Hi folks, I've just been to Belgium looking up my great grand uncle who fought in WW 1 and was KIA. I'm really keen to find more information on him but I can't find any online and would really appriciate any help I could get. His details are: O’Rourke, James. Reg. No. 7788. Rank; Private, Royal Irish Regiment 6 th Batt. Killed in action, France, April 5, 1917. Born Kildare. Apart from that I don't know much else. I also know he had a brother called Lawrence that also fought in The Great War, and also fought in the civil war in '22. He was shot in the hand and lived a long but slightly drunk life. Any idea's?

johnny_doyle

Soldiers Died in the Great War has the following

Name:James O'Rourke
Birth Place:Kildare
Death Date:5 Apr 1917
Death Location:France & Flanders
Enlistment Location:Kilkenny
Rank Private
Regiment:Royal Irish Regiment
Battalion:6th Battalion
Number:7788
Type of Casualty:Killed in action

Ireland Memorial records has the info you've quoted and nothing else to add.

His medal card shows he was awarded the 1915 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal and that he served in the (2b) Balkans theatre, qualifying date 19/7/1915, which translates to Gallipoli :

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp


The CWGC entry gives an address of Maudlin St, Kilkenny and I seem to remember having a conversation on another forum re someone on this street.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1622899


Does the family have any link to Black Trench, Naas?

johnny_doyle

here's the conversation where Maudlin St cropped up:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148290

Tom Burnell (aka MuseumTom) may be able to give you more info re James.


From what I can tell of the Royal Irish Regt, the 6th Battn didn't serve in Gallipoli. The 5th did and he could have been in here before being transferred. He appears to have died just before the 6th Battn were involved in the Battle of Messines.

spikeprint

Thanks Johnny, my grand parents and mother lived on Maudlin Street so thats definately him. Thats an extra bit of information I didn't find. Thanks a million for your help.

johnny_doyle

the 1911 census has the family in Kilkenny but no sign of a Lawrence here. The parents have indicated 17years married. 6 children born; 6 living with 6 children present on the census form.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Kilkenny_No__2_Urban/Kellys_Lane/525949/


there is a service record for a Lawrence O'Rourke with an address in Liverpool and Black Trench, Naas. Wife Marcella nee Kelly. Any chance that this might be your Lawrence?

spikeprint

I have checked the census, but I would need to clarify certain parts with my mother. Not sure about Lawrence, but he was alive when my mother was young so I'm sure she will have more info.

I've been researching all morning, and have pinned his battalion down to the battles of Guillimont and Ginchy. I also have some info on battles for villages between Cambrai and St. Quentin on 5 april 1917, the day he dies. I'm not sure if this is right, but it is all I can find on that date.

Thanks again for your help, I really appriciate it.

dubtom

I wonder would someone with access to ancestry or other resources check out a person for me. I've been searching for my Great Grand Father for several years and in whittling down the names came up with a death cert for someone with the same name, James Kavangh. 62783 Royal Garrison Artillery, died 15-6-1917 and unfortunatly,died of wounds,wilfully self inflicted,unsound mind.

I ask for this particular man because the most recent piece of information I received on my G. Grand Father was that he was in Artillery. What I'm hoping is that somewhere a next of kin is mention,or an address. Just in case,my James Kavanagh was married to Sarah, had two children,John and Ann and lived either in Rutland place or Little Mary street,Dublin. The Kavanagh on the cert is listed as being 33 years of age,but unknown age on CWGC. So my hope is that perhaps some other info is out there. I got the cert from Roscommon btw.
Hope someone can help.

Ponster

dubtom wrote: »

I wonder would someone with access to ancestry or other resources check out a person for me. I've been searching for my Great Grand Father for several years and in whittling down the names came up with a death cert for someone with the same name, James Kavangh. 62783 Royal Garrison Artillery, died 15-6-1917 and unfortunatly,died of wounds,wilfully self inflicted,unsound mind.

James Kavangh 62783 gave his address as Liverpool and next of kin as William Kavangh (brother) Boston, USA, no wife and no kids.

dubtom

Wow thanks for the quick response Ponster. Another one off the list.

Ponster

dubtom wrote: »

Wow thanks for the quick response Ponster. Another one off the list.

No probs. I'm sure that I and some others will see if we can find him in any of the Ancestry records.

You haven't found them in the 1901-1911 census to get the correct age of James ?

johnny_doyle

from SDGW

Name:James Kavanagh
Birth Place:Birr, King's County
Residence:Boston, U.S.A.
Death Date:15 Jun 1917
Death Location:France & Flanders
Enlistment Location:Liverpool
Rank:Gunner
Regiment:Royal Garrison Artillery
Number:62783
Type of Casualty Died

The don't appear to be any other James Kavanagh's in the artillery who died in WW1.

spurious

From attestation papers on Ancestry:

Name: James Kavanagh
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Age at Enlistment: 32
Residence: 19 Rimoore Road Book, Liverpool (*Rimrose Road, Bootle)
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 62783
Regiment Name: RGA
Number of Images: 15

On the form, which is dated 6th November, 1915, it gives his age as 32 and 2 months, which would be a birth in September 1883.

spurious

In case you don't have it, a photo of his grave is available from here:
http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=2470236

dubtom

Ponster wrote: »

No probs. I'm sure that I and some others will see if we can find him in any of the Ancestry records.

You haven't found them in the 1901-1911 census to get the correct age of James ?

Well from the 1911 his age is given as 25, so I had approximated his age at 31/32 when he died in 17/18. This is purely based on second hand accounts by aunts who insist my Granny was 6 when he died,she was born in 1912. I haven't managed to find him on the 1901 due to lack of info regarding his family.
Thanks for info Spurious, unfortunately it's not my James kavanagh, although it is heartening to see that there may be info there if I ever manage to get more details.

johnny_doyle

based on Soldiers Died in the Great War and Ireland Memorial Records, there appear to be 3 Dublin born Kavanagh's with the artillery who died during WW1 :


John Kavanagh from St James's, Dublin
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=296312

Patrick Kavanagh who enlisted in Kingstown
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=301858

Edward Kavanagh
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=145289