I'm a non-believing Jew, but my son wants a barmitzvah.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Jewish people share genetics with people of middle eastern origin.
Yet their genetics are clearly different from both Europeans and Arabians. Do you not consider genetic variations as evidence of Race ?

No, it's not evidence of race. Irish people's genetics is different to Spanish peoples, but both are considered white. It is not strong enough to consider it a single race.

Judaism is a faith, not a race.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nope they are both members of the Caucasian Race their Genes are similar and as such they belong to the same race.

You could say a large portion Jewish people are members of the Semitic race'. But you cannot say that all Jewish people are of the same race, and therefore - they are not a race. All black people are black. All white people are white. You can have black & white jewish people. It is NOT a race. You're being extremely silly to think otherwise.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not evidence of race. Irish people's genetics is different to Spanish peoples, but both are considered white. It is not strong enough to consider it a single race.

Actually this just displays you ignorance of genetics. Irish people actually come from a region in Spain:

Wikipedia wrote:

When the climate warmed into the present interglacial, populations would have rapidly spread north along the west European coast. Genetically, in terms of Y-chromosomes and Mt-DNA, inhabitants of Britain and Ireland are closely related to the Basques,[14][15] reflecting their common origin in this refugial area. Northern Spaniards, specially Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians and Basques, along with Irish, Welsh and Bretons show the highest frequency of the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1b in Western Europe; some 90% to 95% of Basque males have this haplogroup. The rest is mainly I and a minimal presence of E3b.[14] The Y-chromosome and MtDNA relationship between Basques and people of Ireland and Wales is of equal ratios to neighbouring areas of Spain, where similar ethnically "Spanish" people now live in close proximity to the Basques, although this genetic relationship is also very strong among Basques and other Spaniards. As Stephen Oppenheimer has stated in The Origins of the British, although Basques have been more isolated than other Iberians, they are a population representative of south western Europe.

dlofnep wrote: »

Judaism is a faith, not a race.

You're a little bit slow aren't you ?
You seem intent on using the subject of the discussion as evidence on your side despite being obviously non-sensical.

dlofnep wrote: »

You could say a large portion Jewish people are members of the Semitic race'. But you cannot say that all Jewish people are of the same race, and therefore - they are not a race. All black people are black. All white people are white. You can have black & white jewish people. It is NOT a race. You're being extremely silly to think otherwise.

So tell me, what seperates the Semetic Race from the Arabian race ?

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

You could say a large portion Jewish people are members of the Semitic race'. But you cannot say that all Jewish people are of the same race, and therefore - they are not a race. All black people are black. All white people are white. You can have black & white jewish people. It is NOT a race. You're being extremely silly to think otherwise.

Nothing, anywhere, is a race, in an objective sense. Most African Americans are so interbred with Caucasians that they're whole shades lighter than Africans but we're still calling them all 'black'. I defy you to tell my friend who is of African-American, Irish and Japanese descent that a "race" is a clearly defined thing.

The concept of a race is a loose association of traits and inheritance. Jews generally only reproduce within Jewish circles, and have done so for a very long time. Yes, you can become Jewish from another background, but those people are the exception. Judaism is a religion, Jews are a race. Jewish people might refer to themselves as a people in reference to a literal race, a cultural group and as a religious movement.

And in reference to the question "Are the Irish a race?", yes, I have seen people refer to the Irish race in many circumstances.

Coriolanus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Stuff

+1 for the inbreeding Blessington reference.

On topic, I'd probably react with a certain amount of resignation and hope they grow out of it, just like they grew out of their fondness for hover-boards, subdermal LED tattoos, xenophilia and all the other crazy stuff the Children of the Future© will be getting themselves into.

Zillah

Nevore wrote: »

subdermal LED tattoos

I'm getting one of these as soon as they're available.

Iwasfrozen

Zillah wrote: »

I'm getting one of these as soon as they're available.

Hell yeah.

Coriolanus

Damn kids. :rolleyes: :pac:

I want one too...

Dades

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're a little bit slow aren't you ?

And you're stepping over the line. Don't get personal.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually this just displays you ignorance of genetics. Irish people actually come from a region in Spain:

No it doesn't, it displays your ignorance on the ethnic diversity of northern Spain. The basque people do not consider themselves Spanish. Today's Irish in comparison with today's Spanish do not look the same. Spaniards are much more sallow skinned than Irish. I don't consider them different races however. I'm quite educated on the history of Spain, thank you.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You seem intent on using the subject of the discussion as evidence on your side despite being obviously non-sensical.

You're not making any sense at all.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So tell me, what seperates the Semetic Race from the Arabian race ?

What separates the so called Jewish race (a religion) from anyone else?

And also - Can there be black jews? Yes or no?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No it doesn't, it displays your ignorance on the ethnic diversity of northern Spain. The basque people do not consider themselves Spanish. Today's Irish in comparison with today's Spanish do not look the same. Spaniards are much more sallow skinned than Irish. I don't consider them different races however. I'm quite educated on the history of Spain, thank you.

Doesn't really matter what they call themselves, the genes tell a different matter.

dlofnep wrote: »

What separates the so called Jewish race (a religion) from anyone else?

ah ah, I believe I asked my question first.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

What separates the so called Jewish race (a religion) from anyone else?

In fairness you have to admit that, not in all cases but very often you can look at someone and tell they are Jewish. They have certain physical characteristics the same way black people or chinese people do. The word race isn't very rigidly defined and they are genetically distinct from gentiles

Also, take a look at what the Jewish people themselves say about who is a Jew:

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It's important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions and being Jewish is like a citizenship"

Zillah

Ok I drew a picture to explain my take on the whole Jewish thing:



WHITE: Non-existant, merely an artifact of my diagram

BLUE: Someone who has nothing to do with Judaism.

GREEN: Someone of Jewish descent but who does not practice the religion. Like the parents in the original post.

BLACK: Most Jews. People who are considered to be of Jewish descent and who practice the religion.

RED: A group that consists of people of Jewish descent and converts all of whom practice the religion.

NOTE: Jews consider Red and Black to be the same thing. If you jump through the hoops you are considered to have become as Jewish as anyone else. In a more objective sense these people of course could not share the genetic traits that help distinguish a Jewish race from the others. The offspring of a female red or black can become Black or Green. (I like diagrams!)

Granted it's a clusterfuck but I think it highlights how it is far too simplistic to announce that Jewishness is simply a race or a religion. Of course they weaken their case for Jews being a race by letting other people in and counting them as full members but there original descent is there. Perhaps they don't have enough distinguishing features to satisfy some people's definitions of race, but frankly I think any strict objective definition of race is doomed to failure.

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In fairness you have to admit that, not in all cases but very often you can look at someone and tell they are Jewish.

I can't.

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

I can't.

You need to get out more. It's not always apparent, of course, but with a lot of Jews you can tell instantly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Flamed Diving wrote: »

*sigh* It really bothers me when I have to hold people's hands through debates. But here we go.

The point about sex, is not about sex education. It is about the child being deemed advanced enough to make big decisions, for themselves. Choosing to join a religious cult is a big decision.

If a 13-year old is not old enough to have sex or vote, then they cannot make such a huge decision about joining a cult.

Very simple, and if you think that devotional belief of a invisible deity, who holds the key to your destiny, does not involve emotion...

I really don't know what to say.

There is a reason why 13 year olds are not allowed to engage in sexual activity. Perhaps you can work out why that is?
There is a reason why 13 year olds are allowed to emgage in religious activity. Perhaps you can work out whay that is?

In case you can't: it's because having sex is a far more emopional and potentially life-changing than choosing religion.

You can leave religions (and we're talking Judiasm and Catholicsm here, not "cults" - cults are different) but you can't undo a sexual act.

Now, enough of the condescention. Are we goin to discuss this like adults or not?

Zillah

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

There is a reason why 13 year olds are allowed to emgage in religious activity. Perhaps you can work out whay that is?

JOIN a religion, as in become a member of an organisation. We're not talking about a kid saying a prayer at night or asking God to help him win his soccer game, we're talking about formally signing up to a specific religious organisation and all that entails.

In case you can't: it's because having sex is a far more emopional and potentially life-changing than choosing religion.

The word 'potentially' is both correct and makes your point meaningless. Both can have a massive impact on your quality of life. Comparing them beyond that is pointless and arbitrary.

You can leave religions (and we're talking Judiasm and Catholicsm here, not "cults" - cults are different) but you can't undo a sexual act.

Religion can have long lasted psychological effects too. Also, a religion is simply a very popular cult. I think mutilating genitals and conducting symbolic cannibalistic rituals is pretty messed up (to use your two examples).

Sam Vimes

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In case you can't: it's because having sex is a far more emopional and potentially life-changing than choosing religion.

You can leave religions (and we're talking Judiasm and Catholicsm here, not "cults" - cults are different) but you can't undo a sexual act.

You can't undo a circumcision

Zillah

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You can't undo a circumcision

Technically you kind of can, but it's a lot of trouble.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

I can't.

One of those people is Jewish. Which one?

Sam Vimes

Also which one of these people is Jewish?

dlofnep

I'm going to hazard a guess at the two lads in the glasses, because they fit the cliché. To be fair, theres not alot of choice on offer. Top picture, you're really only comparing 3 people as 2 are upsidedown.

If I give you a theoretical picture of 20 people and ask you to pick out which one was Jewish - Do you think you could?

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

If I give you a theoretical picture of 20 people and ask you to pick out which one was Jewish - Do you think you could?

A lot of the time, yes. Some Jews won't look typically Jewish, but many do and if the person is one of them, then yes, pretty certain I could.

Which of these?

GLaDOS

If Judaism is a race aswell as a religion, then somebody not decended from Judaism who converts is a non-Jewish Jew, how silly.

How do they react when you ask if they're Jewish?

Zillah

ScienceNerd wrote: »

If Judaism is a race aswell as a religion, then somebody not decended from Judaism who converts is a non-Jewish Jew, how silly.

How do they react when you ask if they're Jewish?

They pretend they are Jewish as any other Jew, because it's more about God and magic than it is about genetics. Obviously a convert with no Jewish ancestry will not be genetically related in anyway, but if you ask a convert to Judaism if they are Jewish they will say yes.

dlofnep

Zillah, which one of these is Irish.

http://image60.webshots.com/60/5/83/45/2393583450086310119maBxmQ_fs.jpg

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

If I give you a theoretical picture of 20 people and ask you to pick out which one was Jewish - Do you think you could?

I couldn't guarantee it because they don't all look like that but if Ben Stein (the guy in the second post) was surrounded by a thousand people I could still pick him out as Jewish. I was never told that guy was Jewish and I don't recall him doing Jewish stuff in any films, the two I remember him from are Ferris Bueller's Day Off where he was a teacher and The Mask where he was a therapist. I still know he's Jewish

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm going to hazard a guess at the two lads in the glasses, because they fit the cliché. To be fair, theres not alot of choice on offer. Top picture, you're really only comparing 3 people as 2 are upsidedown.

The whole point is the cliche exists because many of them look like that. You successfully picked out the Jews both times and I'm sure you will succeed with Zillah's example. Would you like to change your statement that you can never look at someone and tell they are Jewish?

dlofnep

No, I can't tell if someone is Jewish. They fit the Jewish cliché - but not all Jewish people have the glasses stereotype and big nose. You are conveniently picking out people who fit a cliché.

Now pick out which in my picture is Irish.

philologos

dfolnep: There can be both black and white Jews, and they can both share Semitic genes.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

dfolnep: There can be both black and white Jews, and they can both share Semitic genes.

Would their race not be black? Or Jewish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zillah wrote: »

JOIN a religion, as in become a member of an organisation. We're not talking about a kid saying a prayer at night or asking God to help him win his soccer game, we're talking about formally signing up to a specific religious organisation and all that entails.

That would depend on why said kid wants to join said religion. I think his reasons may go deeper. And many kids in Ireland belong to a religious organisation (rightly or wrongly).

The word 'potentially' is both correct and makes your point meaningless. Both can have a massive impact on your quality of life. Comparing them beyond that is pointless and arbitrary.

Going around in circles here. Sex is far more life-changing than religion for resons outlined. Shouldn't have used the word potential.

Religion can have long lasted psychological effects too. Also, a religion is simply a very popular cult. I think mutilating genitals and conducting symbolic cannibalistic rituals is pretty messed up (to use your two examples).

So is it okay to convert to Judiasm if your a girl, then?