Yes to An Board Snip

Mario007

I already posted this in the main forum a week or so ago but the anti-nama thread got me worked up to put this here too:D

Would anyone be interested in canvassing in support of An Board Snip recommendations? The truth is we pretty much need to implement all of the findings in order for our public finances to get back on track. And you can see that a lot of people are getting worked up over it and sometimes are even misleading others about the report. I want to know if there are a few people out there who support the report and would be willing to go out and talk to people and explain to them why the report implementation is necessary! It is true our TDs should do it, but the coallition TDs would prefer to stay hidden in hopes of getting re-elected and opposition TDs dont want to support it either, cause it will get a lot of public against them and they too wanna get re-elected.
So anyone?

amacca

Id be in favor of large swathes of it but are you suggesting we should have absolutely everything on the menu?

Do you want people to show support for blanket implementing the full report in its entirety?

I only ask because in my opinion its quite possible at least some parts of the report could be ill judged and might end up wasting more money than they save etc and people should know if they are showing and attempting to drum up support for the report in its entirety or just sections of it.

Mario007

amacca wrote: »

Id be in favor of large swathes of it but are you suggesting we should have absolutely everything on the menu?

Do you want people to show support for blanket implementing the full report in its entirety?

I only ask because in my opinion its quite possible at least some parts of the report could be ill judged and might end up wasting more money than they save etc and people should know if they are showing and attempting to drum up support for the report in its entirety or just sections of it.

i want vast majority of it implemented. at least 4bn in saving this year is a must, i think. and thanks for your support

tolosenc

Largely in favour of it, barring the Public Sector job cuts. Why the nurses and teachers and not the pen pushers? The jobs need to go, but those are the wrong ones to cut.

Riskymove

Toulousain wrote: »

Largely in favour of it, barring the Public Sector job cuts. Why the nurses and teachers and not the pen pushers? The jobs need to go, but those are the wrong ones to cut.

the majority of jobs are in health and education, nurses and teachers...not "pen-pushers" as is commonly thought by the public, e.g. the entire civil service is only around 10% of the public sector

why do you think An Bord Snip recommended so many to be cut?

Riskymove

Mario007 wrote: »

i want vast majority of it implemented. at least 4bn in saving this year is a must, i think. and thanks for your support

so you think that An Bord Snip's recommendations should be just blindly implemented, no debate or looking for other options?

if so, why?

ednwireland

no cos their talking about cutting my OH teaching hours at an IT (mainly as her course is staffed by contract workers = easier to get rid of)

irish_bob

ednwireland wrote: »

no cos their talking about cutting my OH teaching hours at an IT (mainly as her course is staffed by contract workers = easier to get rid of)

but as long as the cuts didnt effect you personally , would you be ok with the report being implemented then ??

Mario007

Riskymove wrote: »

so you think that An Bord Snip's recommendations should be just blindly implemented, no debate or looking for other options?

if so, why?

these implementation aren't blind, to start off with. thats why it took the group half a year to come up with them. these are the cuts that can be easily achieved, and that wouldn't damage the economy. so yes i am in favour of implementing them. why? because we dont have a choice, it's simple as that. in fact we need to be much harsher if we want to survive, i don't like it, but thats the reality that we're in...

Riskymove

Mario007 wrote: »

these implementation aren't blind, to start off with. thats why it took the group half a year to come up with them. these are the cuts that can be easily achieved, and that wouldn't damage the economy. so yes i am in favour of implementing them. why? because we dont have a choice, it's simple as that. in fact we need to be much harsher if we want to survive, i don't like it, but thats the reality that we're in...

they are a group of people who have looked at and come up with recommendations, they are not infallible gods

it is fully possible that there are counter arguments to making some of these cuts as they may have overlooked some impacts, including on the economy

some of the cuts seem to recoup very little money and seem straightforward but we may be doing away with some traditional things...I reckon we could really go too far

in any event the Government is unlikely to implement all of it, that's why they went further than was required (€5bn as opposed to €3bn)

irish_bob

Riskymove wrote: »

they are a group of people who have looked at and come up with recommendations, they are not infallible gods

it is fully possible that there are counter arguments to making some of these cuts as they may have overlooked some impacts, including on the economy

some of the cuts seem to recoup very little money and seem straightforward but we may be doing away with some traditional things...I reckon we could really go too far

in any event the Government is unlikely to implement all of it, that's why they went further than was required (€5bn as opposed to €3bn)

just speak your mind risky , you want the goverment to raise taxes to cut the deficit

Mario007

Riskymove wrote: »

they are a group of people who have looked at and come up with recommendations, they are not infallible gods

it is fully possible that there are counter arguments to making some of these cuts as they may have overlooked some impacts, including on the economy

some of the cuts seem to recoup very little money and seem straightforward but we may be doing away with some traditional things...I reckon we could really go too far

in any event the Government is unlikely to implement all of it, that's why they went further than was required (€5bn as opposed to €3bn)

i agree that they could have made mistakes, but having read the report it gives precise arguments for the measures it advocates.

just because there are some 'traditional things' doesnt mean we have to keep them around if they are not working. mccarthy himself said that some of the recommendations would really not save much money but they would make things better, easier and more convenient.

to be honest it doesnt matter that the board went outside the 3bn, because we need to go far further than just those 5bn if we want to restore public finances. and to get the government to implement it all, i want to know if people are willing to canvass in support of it.

Riskymove

irish_bob wrote: »

just speak your mind risky , you want the goverment to raise taxes to cut the deficit

why would i want that? I pay tax

Riskymove

Mario007 wrote: »

just because there are some 'traditional things' doesnt mean we have to keep them around if they are not working.

well thats part of my argument...some are working just not seen as being beneficial to the economy but have a history or play soem ssmall part in ireland's representation in the world (and for very little money)

I agree with a lot of whats in the report and indeed could go further in some cases but I just fear we could end up stopping a lot of things simply because they dont mean much to the majority but at an expense other than an economical saving

ednwireland

irish_bob wrote: »

but as long as the cuts didnt effect you personally , would you be ok with the report being implemented then ??

actually her course survived, i'm actually in favour of the cuts even if thet affect me. BUT the problem is gov. agenncies do not cut where it is sensible or most effective, they take the path of least resistance nad damn the consequences.
i despair at the attitude of publicly funded bodies, the HSE needs a ground up restructure of its admin, what do they do ? cut nurses close wards probably the least effective way of saving money

thats the bit that i dont see addressed in mcarthey lots of the cuts make sense, there just not going to be implemeted in the way you think

Mario007

ednwireland wrote: »

actually her course survived, i'm actually in favour of the cuts even if thet affect me. BUT the problem is gov. agenncies do not cut where it is sensible or most effective, they take the path of least resistance nad damn the consequences.
i despair at the attitude of publicly funded bodies, the HSE needs a ground up restructure of its admin, what do they do ? cut nurses close wards probably the least effective way of saving money

thats the bit that i dont see addressed in mcarthey lots of the cuts make sense, there just not going to be implemeted in the way you think

The report also talks about the various state agencies which it says should be combined, merged or abolished altogether. when it comes down to the salaries of the public sector top officials, the report could not recommend anything in this regard because it wasn't given the mandate to do so in the conditions that were agreed.

Riskymove wrote: »

well thats part of my argument...some are working just not seen as being beneficial to the economy but have a history or play soem ssmall part in ireland's representation in the world (and for very little money)

I agree with a lot of whats in the report and indeed could go further in some cases but I just fear we could end up stopping a lot of things simply because they dont mean much to the majority but at an expense other than an economical saving

could you give an example, so we could have a debate about it? I personally could not find anything that would damage ireland's representation in the world in the proposed cuts.

I agree with you that some things will get slashed just because many people don't care about them, in an effort to make for the 'big things' that a lot of people do care about. That is wht I am advocating the canvassing of the support for the report because we could get a proper discussion with people going and let them understand exactly what the report proposes and why should it be implemented.

Riskymove

Mario007 wrote: »

could you give an example, so we could have a debate about it? I personally could not find anything that would damage ireland's representation in the world in the proposed cuts.

well, perhaps the wording is a bit strong there, i mean its not like its the end of the world if some of things happened.

An example mentioned a few times on boards is the army equestrian school; its recommended for the chop at a saving of €1m. Now while most of us are not probably interested in show jumping, I can imagine that the school plays a role in it, in representing ireland, encouraging visitors to see events and so on which may cost the economy more than €1m in the long run.

€1m is a lot to the man in the street but in the context of government spending is tiny

SeaFields

I'm sick of Colm McCarthy being vilified in the press. He sat down, did the sums and came up with recommendations not decisions purely based on a fiscal analysis. Its up to the government to implement all or some of them - let the vilification be on them. Thats befitting of them, considering they got us in this mess in the first place.

Indeed, YES to An Bord Snip Nua.

Mario007

Riskymove wrote: »

well, perhaps the wording is a bit strong there, i mean its not like its the end of the world if some of things happened.

An example mentioned a few times on boards is the army equestrian school; its recommended for the chop at a saving of €1m. Now while most of us are not probably interested in show jumping, I can imagine that the school plays a role in it, in representing ireland, encouraging visitors to see events and so on which may cost the economy more than €1m in the long run.

€1m is a lot to the man in the street but in the context of government spending is tiny

However giving 1 million from our taxes to 'represent Ireland' in showjumping to me seems a bit absurd. If we are to talk about it as a tourist attraction then I would think putting it under Failte Ireland would be much better. We must also learn that state is not going to pay for everything and that sometimes people need to look fors sponsor etc. This would bring a lot of money to the LOCAL economy, so it's the local council that should help out the school, in my opinion.

There are many things like this in the report, things that state donates even though it really ought not to in the current situation. I think we need to move away from the old attitude that the state will take care of everything and try to fix our problems ourselves more often.

Mario007

SeaFields wrote: »

I'm sick of Colm McCarthy being vilified in the press. He sat down, did the sums and came up with recommendations not decisions purely based on a fiscal analysis. Its up to the government to implement all or some of them - let the vilification be on them. Thats befitting of them, considering they got us in this mess in the first place.

Indeed, YES to An Bord Snip Nua.

Thanks! Thats exactly what I think as well. Now would you be willing to go out and try to get this message across to the public?:cool:

SeaFields

Mario007 wrote: »

Thanks! Thats exactly what I think as well. Now would you be willing to go out and try to get this message across to the public?:cool:

I shouldn't have to. I am not a politician. But I am a citizen of a country which was financially raped by corruption and greed. The politicians should be the ones getting this message across to the public but they are running scared. Why? Because their policies got us here.

It should be Fianna Fail government telling the rural elderly that we can no longer afford their transport scheme, telling struggling farmers environmental schemes are costing too much, telling single mothers that their children's allowance has to be cut, telling the jobless that their dole payments have to be reduced and countless other sections of the vulnerable in our society. And they should get down on their fcukin knees when doing it and beg for forgiveness for putting themselves ahead of the country's economy, for saddling the next generation with debt and the generation after that.

Your pursuit is admirable Mario but its not your place. It's theirs.

Mario007

SeaFields wrote: »

I shouldn't have to. I am not a politician. But I am a citizen of a country which was financially raped by corruption and greed. The politicians should be the ones getting this message across to the public but they are running scared. Why? Because their policies got us here.

It should be Fianna Fail government telling the rural elderly that we can no longer afford their transport scheme, telling struggling farmers environmental schemes are costing too much, telling single mothers that their children's allowance has to be cut, telling the jobless that their dole payments have to be reduced and countless other sections of the vulnerable in our society. And they should get down on their fcukin knees when doing it and beg for forgiveness for putting themselves ahead of the country's economy, for saddling the next generation with debt and the generation after that.

Your pursuit is admirable Mario but its not your place. It's theirs.

I agree it should be them. They should be out there talking to people, not on their holidays somewhere and not even engaging in any political debate. However, I do not believe they will do it at all. What's worse is that they will most likely crumble under the pressure and the budget in december will be too little and we will get ruined within a years time. Thus my desperate effort...but I do see your point and I am very of the same mind...

Riskymove

Mario007 wrote: »

I agree it should be them. They should be out there talking to people, not on their holidays somewhere and not even engaging in any political debate. However, I do not believe they will do it at all. What's worse is that they will most likely crumble under the pressure and the budget in december will be too little and we will get ruined within a years time. Thus my desperate effort...but I do see your point and I am very of the same mind...

the problem is how Ireland operates at its very core....there is no one that the report does not affect in some way (even show jumpers:pac:)...the general attitude, as shown on threads here, is that people will be all for the cuts which dont affect them but oppossed to anything that does

the inevitabkle result is all these orgs arguing for their own case, and depending on their lobby strength, trying to influence decisions.

irish_bob

SeaFields wrote: »

I shouldn't have to. I am not a politician. But I am a citizen of a country which was financially raped by corruption and greed. The politicians should be the ones getting this message across to the public but they are running scared. Why? Because their policies got us here.

It should be Fianna Fail government telling the rural elderly that we can no longer afford their transport scheme, telling struggling farmers environmental schemes are costing too much, telling single mothers that their children's allowance has to be cut, telling the jobless that their dole payments have to be reduced and countless other sections of the vulnerable in our society. And they should get down on their fcukin knees when doing it and beg for forgiveness for putting themselves ahead of the country's economy, for saddling the next generation with debt and the generation after that.

Your pursuit is admirable Mario but its not your place. It's theirs.

the rual transport scheme for the elderly is fine as long as the people using it, pay for it

Godge

Toulousain wrote: »

Largely in favour of it, barring the Public Sector job cuts. Why the nurses and teachers and not the pen pushers? The jobs need to go, but those are the wrong ones to cut.

Because there are much more nurses and teachers than pen pushers.

70,000 people working in education, over 60,000 are front-line staff when you include teachers, lecturers, SNAs, library staff, reception staff etc.

The "get rid of the pen pushers and everything will be ok" attitude is so ignorant of the reality.

We pay more to our teachers, nurses, lecturers, doctors, gardai, fire-fighters, SNAs (and just about any front-line staff you care to mention), than anyone else in Europe.

The OECD has actually said that out back-office civil service is quite small.

pay-cuts or huge productivity gains for front-line staff is the only way to save the amount of money needed.

Godge

Riskymove wrote: »

well, perhaps the wording is a bit strong there, i mean its not like its the end of the world if some of things happened.

An example mentioned a few times on boards is the army equestrian school; its recommended for the chop at a saving of €1m. Now while most of us are not probably interested in show jumping, I can imagine that the school plays a role in it, in representing ireland, encouraging visitors to see events and so on which may cost the economy more than €1m in the long run.

€1m is a lot to the man in the street but in the context of government spending is tiny

While most of us are not interested in show-jumping, outside of Ireland the interest is even less. Who are the visitors encouraged to see such events. The Dublin horse Show is full of Irish people, not visitors from abroad.