Mature Students like wtf??!!

Effluo

LoLth wrote: »

I would also suggest that you dont admit to trolling again. only thing that's stopping you from having a nice two week holiday is the fact that the thread is actually interesting.

Sorry mate but if you find this interesting why is my poll on whether "Mature students tend to be more or less annoying" removed from the forum?


Last time i checked it it was in fact 5 to 0 in favour of mature students being more annoying.
No-one can argue with numbers and this was direct proof that i was (so to say) "speaking the unspoken".
Saying what a lot of people actually thought privately of mature students but were obviously not gonna say to other mature students.

In a way the mature students who have been posting on this thread and the lecturers for that matter have only proved my point more. By jumping at what i was trying to get across, being irrational in their arguments and even defending the defenceless(when some tried to defend the mature student which my group had problems with)...

The poll should still be there! And so the people who will not agree that the conception which usual students have of them tends to be more likely to be negative.

There is no winning and losing in debates like this, there are however facts and stats. Let the facts and stats be known! So other can make their decision to without being hounded like me.

Nationalist

Effluo wrote: »

Mature students?
Where would you be!

Where do they get these people from?
They sit there in the front rows with their books and several pens (in a pencil case) madly jotting down everything the lecturer says....
If you look into their notes copy it's like a feckin dictaphone
I mean give me a break!

Hey sonny boy, we're not all like tha...HHHHGGGGNNnnnnnnn

Effluo

just on that note type "mature student" into google images with safe search off.....

.....

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rozabeez

I tend to jot down what a lecturer says. I've asked questions in class. I've got a pencil case. I'm 19.

You really do just need to let it go. The poll was stupid, there weren't enough options and a whole 5 people voted? Wow, you should write a thesis on this.

It is an interesting topic to some, but having two threads just to bitch about the same thing? Pointless.

LoLth

Effluo wrote: »

Sorry mate but if you find this interesting why is my poll on whether "Mature students tend to be more or less annoying" removed from the forum?


Last time i checked it it was in fact 5 to 0 in favour of mature students being more annoying.
No-one can argue with numbers and this was direct proof that i was (so to say) "speaking the unspoken".
Saying what a lot of people actually thought privately of mature students but were obviously not gonna say to other mature students.

In a way the mature students who have been posting on this thread and the lecturers for that matter have only proved my point more. By jumping at what i was trying to get across, being irrational in their arguments and even defending the defenceless(when some tried to defend the mature student which my group had problems with)...

The poll should still be there! And so the people who will not agree that the conception which usual students have of them tends to be more likely to be negative.

There is no winning and losing in debates like this, there are however facts and stats. Let the facts and stats be known! So other can make their decision to without being hounded like me.

yes yes, they can take our land but they can never take our FREEDOM yada yada yada

very rousing altogether.

the poll was pointless as there is already a thread discussing the topic and, as you so rightly point out, there is no winning so what difference do anonymous numbers make?. it got removed. You dont like it, please feel free to lodge a complaint with the admins, I will happily abide by whatever decision they make.

As for the mature students and lecturers posting on this thread: if you actually read the responses you received you will find that the majority of them are quite rational and well thought out. In fact, the only irrational and trollish response comes form the only person here who actually supports your argument!

I'm sure that students can make their own decision without you particular brand of "fact" and "stat" (i'm sorry, but since when is an internet poll on a forum considered a valid stat? surely you'd have to allow for the demographic being polled, the medium being used, the black and white nature of the response optiosn not to mention the vagueness inherent in the wording - the grammar made the second decision hard to understand and so would skew the result toward the first option). Also, what is the FACT that you refer to? How is it a fact? where is it quantified outside of your perception?

as for "no one can argue with numbers"... really? your'e absolutely sure about that? Are you absolutely sure you didnt reg 4 new accounts and vote for your preferred choice 5 times to skew the results or perhaps with teh innocent intention of showing people that they didnt need to be afraid to voice their opinion by ticking the box? honestly, those that voted cant really be all that worked up about it if they'll vote in a poll but wont post in a thread to save you from the vicious savagery that is the mature student urged on by their lecturer masters.

You want to debate this topic, fine, here's a thread to do it in. You want to kick and sulk because you're not allowed do everything you want, fine, go somewhere else. play nice or dont play at all.


finally, a word of advice, if you resent being "hounded" then dont post up material that you actually have to defend and/or justify.

Nationalist

Most of the matur-Os in my classes are complete wreck-the-heads. I was paired up with one as a 2 person project. I did most of the work, the partner just held me back because of his/her idiotic 'creative' ideas. So we got worst in the class for that, and I really needed that project for my work experience.

Other maturos in my classes are annoying. They seem so attentative in classes, always with the big mouth, answering easy questions the lecturer asks, but when it comes around to project time, they know nothing.

(Oh and I speak of the ones in my classes, not maturos in general)

And Effluo, the ones who sit at the top of the class wouldnt really annoy me, they can write as much as they want, people learn in different ways.

That said, I do get annoyed when someone asks questions and then bring the lecture completely out of topic. I only want to learn what coming up in the exam, if i want to learn more, i do it in my own time, not lecture time. And unfortunately, the majority of times, the people who ask those questions, are the maturos themselves. (In MY classes)

College starts in 6 weeks. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-AARrrgggggnnn

Ostrom

Rozabeez wrote: »

Makes me feel sorry for efla and his similar name.

What do you mean?

Effluo wrote: »

Last time i checked it it was in fact 5 to 0 in favour of mature students being more annoying.
No-one can argue with numbers and this was direct proof that i was (so to say) "speaking the unspoken".
Saying what a lot of people actually thought privately of mature students but were obviously not gonna say to other mature students.

Your poll is representative of 0.001% of the student body, and from the comments above, it seems as if you voted yourself into the majority more than once.

starflake

efla wrote: »

What do you mean?



Your poll is representative of 0.001% of the student body, and from the comments above, it seems as if you voted yourself into the majority more than once.

She means that you're efla and Effluo has similar name to you and people might confuse you.....


Perhaps someone has a vendetta :P

hypersquirrel

Effluo wrote: »

The problem is here that nearly every poster here is a mature student, budding mature student or lecturer...

You said earlier that mature students annoy the lecturers.

Half the people in my course are mature students and they are all great. I've yet to have a problem with them. I also tutor the undergrads and like Efla I have to say, Thank God for matures. Trying to get the normal undergrads to discuss anything is like trying to get blood from stone.

Effluo

hypersquirrel wrote: »

You said earlier that mature students annoy the lecturers.

Half the people in my course are mature students and they are all great. I've yet to have a problem with them. I also tutor the undergrads and like Efla I have to say, Thank God for matures. Trying to get the normal undergrads to discuss anything is like trying to get blood from stone.

I never said that mature students annoy the lecturers more so than other students. Sorry if you interpreted anything i said that way.

Efla again how through any reasoning does what i said in that post suggest that i voted 5 times....
I'm not that childish and when i make a poll or start a thread i intend on discussing it like an adult, i don't throw out their opinion cause it's not what i want to hear.

That poll is of a lot of significgance to this thread and argument. I looked for other places on boards to put it but could find none which were suitable.

And cheers nationalist not for agreeing with me, but for justifying that it's not me having a go. It's me being honest

Ostrom

Effluo wrote: »

Efla again how through any reasoning does what i said in that post suggest that i voted 5 times....
I'm not that childish and when i make a poll or start a thread i intend on discussing it like an adult, i don't throw out their opinion cause it's not what i want to hear.

Nothing in your post suggested it, the mod did, above. Tongue in cheek I presume.

You did not discuss it 'like an adult' you threw out a few petty insults then cried indignation when everyone disagreed.

Honestly, can you not see this? You have been told, in no uncertain terms, on the straightforward interpretation and citation of your own posts, that you are not making a valid argument, have no evidence to support your claims and do not have majority support.

We aren't throwing out your opinion because 'its not what we want to hear', we are citing your own statements and arguing back. Considering you take a poll of five votes as representative, you clearly make little little logical distinction between evidence and opinion yourself.

Effluo wrote: »

That poll is of a lot of significgance to this thread and argument. I looked for other places on boards to put it but could find none which were suitable.

That poll was meaningless. Unless you fancy canvassing at inducation day, your poll is void, and considering (as I said above) your own interpretation of valid evidence, it would have done nothing more than make you look twice as stupid if you tried to defend it.

peanuthead

Anyone else think this thread could do with a locking??:rolleyes:

Nationalist

peanuthead wrote: »

Anyone else think this thread could do with a locking??:rolleyes:

CENSORED

LoLth

Nationalist wrote: »

Whats the purpose of that? Effluo was voicing what was on his/her mind. Its free speech. Welcome to democracy mother****ers. Stop with the censorship.

Half of his/her post was made i jest, i presume. Take it with a pinch of salt, and try not to break a hip, gramps. lol.

welcome to boards. this is not a democracy and there *is* censorship. enjoy your stay. I'll be your oppressor for the evening.

LoLth

Acacia

*massive generalisation to follow*

Ah, they're great for filling up tutorials with useless waffle though, which is grand because none of the other students will have done the required work but because the Mature Student wastes the whole hour talking crap, and the other students won't be caught out...:p

They do tend to be rather 'opinionated' though, to put it lightly.

Teabag!

Effluo wrote: »

I never said that mature students annoy the lecturers more so than other students. Sorry if you interpreted anything i said that way.

Efla again how through any reasoning does what i said in that post suggest that i voted 5 times....
I'm not that childish and when i make a poll or start a thread i intend on discussing it like an adult, i don't throw out their opinion cause it's not what i want to hear.

That poll is of a lot of significgance to this thread and argument. I looked for other places on boards to put it but could find none which were suitable.

And cheers nationalist not for agreeing with me, but for justifying that it's not me having a go. It's me being honest

"Close your eyes when you don't want to see
Stay at home when you don't want to go
Only speak to those who will agree
Yeah, and close your mind when you don't want to know"

I was listening to Billy Joel today and these lyrics could almost be describing you....

Ironically the song from which they come is called 'everybody loves you now':D:D:D

and on that note i shall wish you a pleasant stay at NUIM and take my leave of this thread....

Effluo

Teabag! wrote: »

"Close your eyes when you don't want to see
Stay at home when you don't want to go
Only speak to those who will agree
Yeah, and close your mind when you don't want to know"

I was listening to Billy Joel today and these lyrics could almost be describing you....

Ironically the song from which they come is called 'everybody loves you now':D:D:D

and on that note i shall wish you a pleasant stay at NUIM and take my leave of this thread....

Hahahahahaha


Billy Joel

I was listening to

Boom Boom Boom Boom
Girl I want you in my room
Spend the night together from now until forever....

Then i came across this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOxsNAjeN-A


Mahaaaaaaaaaa

Rozabeez

/Thread dies.

LoLth

/thread re-animates and commences eating other threads brains

Effluo

Finally

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9266367943&ref=mf

i don't really "hate" them though

dr.quirky

*prodding dead thread repeating previous stated opinions*

i think noddie/oldies/matures/whatever you care to name them are GREAT:):):):)

many a tutorial they saved, most 17-21yr old undergrads are more afraid of opening discussion/expressing a opinion in a small group than small kids are of monsters.

yes, sometimes some of them are "opinionated" ,
yes, sometimes some of them talk way too much in lectures/tutorials
yes, sometimes some of them use unnessicery words and try to sound very intelligent

and YES, all of these things are also true of SOME "normal" 17-22yr old students
.............:D

AcePuppetMaster

Efflou: When I was younger I thought I knew it all. I had an attitude similar to yours. I never saw the bigger picture or what was really important.

I left school early and went working, bloody hard holding down 5 jobs at one point: Labourer, bouncer, Security guard, set up hotel function rooms and worked nights in a 24hr garage. (not all at the same time, mind but I'd get around 3hrs sleep a day for about 8 months).

At 23 I found myself a father of five and I had been let go from a factory called Flextronics in Tullamore along with 360 others. Things were bad. I decided to go to college and went to AIT to study Electronic & Computer Engineering, 2 year cert. I didn't want to mess this up. I wanted to succeed so that (laugh) I could afford a house of my own where my kids could grow up and do for them the little things that I never had.

I was that mature sitting at the front as you put it, askig all the questions trying not to fall behind everyone else in the clas that did all the maths for thier leaving a few months previous. I knew NOTHING! I worked my a$$ off and made it through. I managed to get my cert, gettting the highest average in the entire college that year and continued on to my Honours Degree in Software Engineering.

I now have a job, in fact I'm in Finland as I type in a hotel because I'm good at what I do. I worked damn hard to get here and did it without back to education allowance. I worked while in college to support my family.

I'm sorry for the life story but I feel I must speak up for every other mature student that had the guts to face the young students like you, listening to the taunts and b1tching but struggled on despite this and succeeded.

My advice for you Efflou, is to think about your mother sitting in a class such as yours, so afraid to fail, so afraid to let you down. Imagine her feelings being exposed to hurtful comments like yours. We feel out of place enough without this.

Tut, tut!:mad::(:mad:

Cpt Beefheart

I have yet to see mature students hogging the computers to tag face book photos or plow their fields. Neither are they talking their way through lectures, or for that matter chattering with their mates in the reading room or library. Don't see the problem myself.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

AcePuppetMaster

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You know if that "stupid question" helps him to understand the material, what's the problem? I often asked questions and to be honest, most of my classmates were grateful because many of them were too embarassed to ask themselves.

More tolerance, less knocking.

AcePuppetMaster

Despite the fact that "everyone laughs at him", he still perseveres. I wish him all the best in overcomming the circumstances you have created for him.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

AcePuppetMaster

Firstly:

ME??

sashafierce wrote: »

....everyone laughs at him...

Everyone is inclusive of yourself.

Secondly:

...always contradicting the lecturers just because he is older than them doesnt mean he knows more!

I agree, but it is not about knowing more than someone else. If he contradicts a lecturer (right or wrongly) he is testing a theory. He thinks there is another option and not taking everything at face value from the lecturer, he's working at improving his understanding. My lecturers have been wrong in the past, they are human after all. The best lecturers actually learn as much from the students as the students learn from him/her.

I'm merely trying to get people to understand that what you percieve to be arrogance may simply be someone struggling to make sense of it. It was conversations such as these in the classroom that deepened my own understanding of topics (yes, sometimes they went further than the subject matter at hand granted) but it helped.

Btw, I'm not trying to start an arguement. Just make a point.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

AcePuppetMaster

I respect that, but I didn't say you were wrong. I'm not a jugde, I just wanted to alert you to the fact that there may be a reason for his behaviour. Having been through it and taking a lot of abuse over the years from what I percieve to be jealous people (btw they were a distinct minority! Most were great), maybe this subject is a little too close to home for me.

My apologies if you thought I was attacking you in any way. Just wanted to enlighten you is all. Even that sounds condescending. It isn't meant to be.

What are you studying?

iLoveTwilight

I bet you they are asking 'stupid' questions now because they wish they had asked more when they were younger .. Not only the mature students ask questions , a lot of the undergrads do too .


I sit down the front in most lectures and I'm 18 ... anything wrong with that? I find towards the middle and the back there is alot of chatting going on and id like to be able to hear the lecturer .


More than likely you think its 'uncool' to sit near the front and ask questions ... I hope you know we're all out of secondary school now .

EDIT . I'm not arguing with you OP .. Just making some valid points . I don't mind people sitting in the back , just irritates me when they say 'eugh I'm not sitting up the front , only the nerds sit there'

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

AcePuppetMaster

Well best of luck to you with your Accounting career. I hope you find it rewarding and don't worry about people thinking you're stupid. What matters is gaining the deeper understanding on the topic at hand.

I always thought about lecturers in this way: they are there to transfer as much knowledge to me in that hour (or two) as possible. Try to figure out what exactly it is that they are trying to get accross. Once you identify that, pursue until that nugget is yours.

I want to go back and do my masters soon. Fees will put an end to that methinks.:(

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

goldilocks77

As an ex-mature student, I was so s**tless about going back to uni that it was great to sit with other mature students and get a bit of moral support. Also, sitting at the front kept me away from the constant texting and chatting going on at the back of the lecture hall. Having said that, I did sit at the back sometimes and it was great fun, plenty to learn on both sides! Maybe young students think that the mature students are boring but who cares? I went back to college to get the degree I couldn't when I was 17, and boy was I delighted and proud of myself on graduation day. Good luck to all students out there.

AcePuppetMaster

goldilocks77 wrote: »

As an ex-mature student, I was so s**tless about going back to uni that it was great to sit with other mature students and get a bit of moral support. Also, sitting at the front kept me away from the constant texting and chatting going on at the back of the lecture hall. Having said that, I did sit at the back sometimes and it was great fun, plenty to learn on both sides! Maybe young students think that the mature students are boring but who cares? I went back to college to get the degree I couldn't when I was 17, and boy was I delighted and proud of myself on graduation day. Good luck to all students out there.

Congrats goldilocks!

AcePuppetMaster

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You have to find your own way. It sounds a bit silly to assume that you know everything. Why then go to college? You could spend the next 20 years in college and not know everything. As a graduate, I've realised that the learning never stops.

Whatever you do, apply yourself well and you won't let yourself down. Do what makes you happy.

Good night and God bless. I have an early rise in the morning.

~me~

i think we all need to be reminded of the old phrase "its better to ask a question and look like a fool for two minutes than not ask the question and be a fool for the rest of your life"
if they need a question answered let them ask it, they're there to learn so let them.

as for the farm thing on facebook- my god! ive spent hours waiting for people to finish in order for me to check my college e mails, do that crap at home! or at least wait til theres not a mile long queue! and while i think of it- dont text while you're at a pc! people are waiting! :mad: sorry its OT but someone mentioned that mature students dont do it and it reminded me!

LeixlipRed

Mature students = hawt

Effluo

Guys this thread is about Mature students, if you wanna complain about what regular students, plz make a new thread. (this is a bit of a joke, but kinda serious too, we all know non-mature students can be a pain)

I "heart" this thread

AcePuppetMaster wrote: »

When I was younger I thought I knew it all. I had an attitude similar to yours.

Firstly I am aware that I don't "know it all" and my posts in general are said with a certain, "I may be wrong, but i was finking" attitude. Although I can get where you're coming from when you think this.

AcePuppetMaster wrote: »

I was that mature sitting at the front as you put it, askig all the questions trying not to fall behind everyone else in the clas that did all the maths for thier leaving a few months previous. I knew NOTHING! I worked my a$$ off and made it through. I managed to get my cert, gettting the highest average in the entire college that year and continued on to my Honours Degree in Software Engineering.

Fair play, anyone who wouldn't have respect for someone who has worked as hard as that and achieved as much. Won't have respect for much else!

AcePuppetMaster wrote: »

Imagine her feelings being exposed to hurtful comments like yours. We feel out of place enough without this.

Mate, I have never gone out to offend or indeed hurt anyone with posts on this or any forum. The point I was making was the same that people have made all over this forum.
Some members of a Section of a group of Students can be annoying.

The young for their farmville on the pc's.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62946392&postcount=75

The people who sit at the back of the class chatting.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62946392&postcount=75

The young "know it alls" who look down on people who make mistakes aka competitive nerds(lol).

The guys who never come in and get the same mark as you.

The guys in the Library. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62921505&postcount=30

All these sections within groups, it's all the same.
Some matures students are asses. I for one do not laugh at them(it's a bit childish)
And I don't have anything against anyone who sits at the front as I am a frequent visitor.
I also ask the occasional question, after class(or if relevant in class too). As I don't see why the whole class should stop just a few times per lecture, because I have a point to make.

We are all fully aware that there are good and bad in all sections of the student body. IMO It's a bit silly that some mature students cannot admit that!
How anyone could defend this particular womans actions...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61669332&postcount=14
Sure each group has to stick together, but what's been displayed on this thread at times is complete ignorance and defiance that any mature student could be the one many people on this forum had described.

But the fact is there has been, there are and there will be more in the future!

5Aces

Im only 24 as as far as the whole mature thing goes i am half cracked and will be having more craic in the pubs or parties than most of these snarling judgemental jumped up tempermental teenagers waiting for one person to walk away so they can say something nasty... you are not in school anymore so chill out and just try to go along to get along. if someone wants to ask a question so what... most of the time in a lecture is just listening to the lecturer read word for word whats on moodle. seriously take it easy on the hair wax... stop starting every single story with i was so locked... you probably had 2 cans of dutch gold... look where you are going... dont look at girls like your thinking im scared to talk to you but i will imagine struggling with your bra... when telling a story dont talk crap when the people involved are in the room... the legend of the su is not the fool who doesnt have anywhere else to go... girls believe it or not we like intelligence... bored now... night

kowloon

I'm technically a mature student, and I sit right up at the front, it's the feckers sitting further back with their laptops on facebook that pi55 me off. If you've no intention of actually listening what's the point in going?
As for taking copious amounts of notes, can't do it, not even for the lecturers who expect you to.

We

have much respect for all the mature students in my 1st year science subjects..

AcePuppetMaster

Effluo wrote: »

Guys this thread is about Mature students

Yes it is and as a previous mature student, I merely wanted to explain why all the questions are asked, why we seem to be so 'annoying' to some. Most of it is to do with insecurity. I just wanted a bit of tolerance and understanding for our perspective is all. Of course there were times when I was in class with immature students who really did some stupid, recless and inconsiderate things, but I commended them secretly for even being there, something I was not able to accomplish. I would also like to point out that they were very much the minority and the exception rather than the rule. I do not wish to tarnish all young students with the same generalization.

Mate, I have never gone out to offend or indeed hurt anyone with posts on this or any forum.

I felt offended by this albeit edited post which kicked this thread off in the first place:

Mature students?
Where would you be!

Where do they get these people from?
They sit there in the front rows with their books and several pens (in a pencil case) madly jotting down everything the lecturer says....
If you look into their notes copy it's like a feckin dictaphone
I mean give me a break!

Not only that but some of them think they really know it all, tut tut tut

Disagreeing with the lecturers? Snarling at people talking during the lecture, when their silly questions are in fact much more disruptive!

Yeah that's right they ask questions! (often completely irrelevant or silly) :O

And their older with wrinkles and unwanted facial, nose and ear hair! ugh!!! (this line is a joke btw)

These comments were entirely rude and insulting to all mature students imho. I felt I had to say something to at the very least give you something to think about. Maybe understand us better.

Some members of a Section of a group of Students can be annoying.

I can agree with you on this one. I didn't see this sentiment in your original post, however. It seemed wholefully directed to one portion of the student body(one which is insecure enough as it is already as I said earlier).

We are all fully aware that there are good and bad in all sections of the student body. IMO It's a bit silly that some mature students cannot admit that!

I did not want to pretend that every mature student is perfect, not annoying to some but again, just wanted to represent the mature students and give an account of ourselves is all.

princess_calico

If I was a mature student and I read this thread, I would be seriously pi$sed. I mean, non-mature students ask questions too? I for one will admit to it?

Maybe they actually appreciate their time in college and don't want to waste it getting wasted and sleeping in the lectures? I have to agree with asking questions if you're totally lost... Because not all of us are genii...

princess_calico

AcePuppetMaster wrote: »

Firstly:
If he contradicts a lecturer (right or wrongly) he is testing a theory. He thinks there is another option and not taking everything at face value from the lecturer, he's working at improving his understanding.

Ok... I could be completely wrong here, but isn't AcePuppetMaster right? AFAIK the whole idea of college is testing new theories and questioning the valid ones.

If you look at the marking schemes for most subjects, the only way of getting an A is by suggesting a new theory or questioning one already proven...? Or is it just the mature students that actually realise that?

AcePuppetMaster

princess_calico wrote: »

Ok... I could be completely wrong here, but isn't AcePuppetMaster right? AFAIK the whole idea of college is testing new theories and questioning the valid ones.

If you look at the marking schemes for most subjects, the only way of getting an A is by suggesting a new theory or questioning one already proven...? Or is it just the mature students that actually realise that?

Finally, I think they've got it! :D

I'm soooo glad you posted princess. You made my day.:)

Rozabeez

Now that I'm in control guys, this thread is seeing its last day or so. We have a rant thread already, you want to rant about mature students then go ahead and do it in there. Make your final points, and no petty arguing please.

*Draws on Hitler tash*

AcePuppetMaster

I'm done...mein fuher.