Farm fox last night on RTE

lightening

Anyone see the nature program on RTE last night? Very interesting piece on a farmer that keeps a half tame fox around the farm to keep the rat and mice population down. Fed the fox and all. And... get this, the farm kept chickens. They were petting the thing when they were feeding it and it played with the sheepdog!! The presenter did a big speel about how we lived in harmony with our native wildlife years ago, but lately, the good old "vermin" thing overplayed by some farmers and hunters with regards to foxes. The farmer in question was elderly, most hunters seem to grow out of fox hunting and prefer to see them alive eventually.

SeaFields

A fox hunts for food so if he was being fed by the farmer he would have no reason to kill the chickens unlike for example a mink who it seems kills for fun and should be eradicated.

I woke early one morning to see my mothers sh!tzu (spelt wrong? :)) playing with a vixen in the front garden. We were living in a housing estate outside Cork city! Fox was spooked by me tho and took off.

Dusty87

I dont agree wit the 'vermin thing' you said. I think foxes are lovely animals and iv often watched a vixen playing wit cubs. Its when they cause harm that i class them as vermin. Its easy for someone to say how nice they are when that someone hasn had trouble with them. I would only hunt a problem fox. Where his chickens well kept in op or were they free roaming?

Tzetze

You can watch the episode of 'Living the wildlife' here

The farm fox mentioned above is at 06:40

SeaFields

Yes, as described by Dusty, its only when they become a problem they are "vermin" and hunted. I know a farmer who, during the last lambing season, lost a lamb every night for two weeks. Thats a substantial loss in income and the situation had to be dealt with. In the same area the foxes are only actively hunted during lambing and whilst causing problems.

For the rest of the year they are just another part of nature in all its beauty and I think one of the nicest wild creatures we have in Ireland.

Dusty87

Yep well said seafields. Also worth noting is that most hunters and farmers, stop hunting foxes during there breeding season. As one hunter told me, every creature deserves a chance. This impression that farmers and hunters are cruel is misunderstood. A lot of the nature we see today may not be there only for the vermin controllers.

lightening

Dusty87 wrote: »

I dont agree wit the 'vermin thing' you said.

I was just saying what the RTE presenter was saying...

Birdnuts

SeaFields wrote: »

Yes, as described by Dusty, its only when they become a problem they are "vermin" and hunted. I know a farmer who, during the last lambing season, lost a lamb every night for two weeks. Thats a substantial loss in income and the situation had to be dealt with. In the same area the foxes are only actively hunted during lambing and whilst causing problems.

For the rest of the year they are just another part of nature in all its beauty and I think one of the nicest wild creatures we have in Ireland.

Lambs are only at risk from fox's when very young. This means that losses can be eliminated by providing proper housing or protection at this time(eg electric fencing, keeping a dog chained in the field). By far the majority of lamb losses to weather, vermin etc. are down to poor husbandry. And I've seen plenty of examples of this in nearly every part of the country:(

Dusty87

The tied up dog thing dosn work. Speakin from experience wit poultry.
EDIT to add, dog is not tied up all night, his run is close to the poultry housing:)

SeaFields

Birdnuts wrote: »

Lambs are only at risk from fox's when very young. This means that losses can be eliminated by providing proper housing or protection at this time(eg electric fencing, keeping a dog chained in the field). By far the majority of lamb losses to weather, vermin etc. are down to poor husbandry. And I've seen plenty of examples of this in nearly every part of the country:(

I think there is something horribly cruel about tying a dog out in the open all night.

Dusty87

whos that fella on that programme btw??

Tzetze

Colin Stafford-Johnson

A very likeable presenter. Light years ahead of 'Mooney goes wild'.

Morganna

great presenter and programme

Amtmann

On the subject of brave foxes, I'm cross-posting this from the UCC forum:

I was walking past the AIB bank on College Road [in Cork City] at around midnight last night when a little fox crossed the street non-chalantly in front of me and stopped almost at my feet, looked at me momentarily, and then proceeded to chew on a discarded apple core for a few minutes while I watched. Then it slipped through a fence and was gone. It was cool: I know of the urban fox phenomenon, but I've never seen one in Cork before, and certainly not around UCC.

Day Lewin

Foxes are opportunistic feeders and they like fruit! At this time of year the younger ones are starting to fend for themselves. Sometimes it takes them a while to learn that humans are not an unmixed blessing...but the cubs are charming, indeed.

Weidii

One thing that I never quite understood is why people don't build fox/mink proof enclosures for their chickens, and since the lambs are only vulnerable at a young age, keep them enclosed until they're big enough to avoid being attacked.

There's no excuse not to do this, as modern technology allows it and I'm sure it couldn't cost more in time/money than they spend on hunts and traps.

Are you thirsty for blood or are you really just trying to protect your livestock?

Birdnuts

Weidii wrote: »

One thing that I never quite understood is why people don't build fox/mink proof enclosures for their chickens, and since the lambs are only vulnerable at a young age, keep them enclosed until they're big enough to avoid being attacked.

There's no excuse not to do this, as modern technology allows it and I'm sure it couldn't cost more in time/money than they spend on hunts and traps.

Are you thirsty for blood or are you really just trying to protect your livestock?

Totally agree ,studies around the world have shown that poor husbandry is by far the biggest cause of livestock deaths worldwide:)

Dusty87

Edit. Keeping out of this one

lightening

Weidii wrote: »

One thing that I never quite understood is why people don't build fox/mink proof enclosures for their chickens, and since the lambs are only vulnerable at a young age, keep them enclosed until they're big enough to avoid being attacked.

Unless the farmers get (another) grant for this it won't happen.

Weidii wrote: »

Are you thirsty for blood or are you really just trying to protect your livestock?

Fox hunters simply enjoy what they do. It's their sport. They like pitting their wits against Ireland's wiliest creature! Some will say they are doing to to protect livestock, but their love for farmers won't have them up at 4 AM in the morning helping out during lambing! Some of them claim to be controlling the eco system. They usually grow out of it in their mid to late thirties.

Dusty87

lightening wrote: »

Fox hunters simply enjoy what they do. It's their sport. They like pitting their wits against Ireland's wiliest creature! Some will say they are doing to to protect livestock, but their love for farmers won't have them up at 4 AM in the morning helping out during lambing! Some of them claim to be controlling the eco system. They usually grow out of it in their mid to late thirties.

Well dont know where you are coming from wit that because if you check the stats the majority of firearms owners would be farmers, farmers sons
etc. So yea they would be up at 4 AM. Also the ones who arnt farmers are being rang by farmers to do this for them because they havn time. Im guessin your not a 'hunter'. Good one about the grants though.

lightening

Dusty87 wrote: »

check the stats

What stats?

Dusty87

lightening wrote: »

What stats?

I dont have the exact figures, but of all the firearms holders in ireland, the majority, were owned by farmers. Just pointing it out about hunters not being up at 4 am when the majority are farmers up at 4 am. I can see your point though.

It wasn't me!

lightening wrote: »

What stats?

There are about 232,000 licensed firearms in the country. Of those, about 176,000 are shotguns. Subtracting from that the number of guns used for clays ang game by taking the membership of clay clubs and game clubs away, you're left with an enormous number, which are attributed to farmers. The figure is reasonably accurate. It's not the majority of licensed firearms, but take into account the average firearm owning demographic (there's a reason there are fewer in the city than in the country - less places to shoot) and that shooting is a very common rural pastime, whereby people will in many cases own several guns, including farmers, and it becomes easy to see that it's quite possible that the majority of licensed firearms are held by farmers or people of a farming background.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not mad about fox-hunting. Prefer to be able to eat the kill. I'll do it with no qualms if the landowner wants it done, but I'm primarily in it for hunting edible game, and at €2+ a pop, vermin control becomes very pricey with the gun I'm using.

Weidii

lightening wrote: »

Fox hunters simply enjoy what they do. It's their sport. They like pitting their wits against Ireland's wiliest creature!.

Well why does "pitting their wits" involve so many hunters, horses and dogs? It's not really a fair sport.

As for hunting to eat, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

lightening

Weidii wrote: »

Well why does "pitting their wits" involve so many hunters, horses and dogs? It's not really a fair sport.

I know, it's their bag, their thing, I think most of the foxes get away to be honest. Still, not a nice way to go for mister foxy.

Dusty87

Weidii wrote: »

Well why does "pitting their wits" involve so many hunters, horses and dogs? It's not really a fair sport.

I can see where your coming from Wiedi. The hunts around here wil go into anyone's field. They break down ditches here, which livestock have escaped through. I hope this is not the case everywhere. Chasing a fox, frightening the life out of it, and let 30hounds rip it apart wouldn be my idea of a sport. A quick kill, that the animal dosn suffer is way more humane. I have 2 friends that hunt on horseback, dont attack them for it, each to their own and all that stuff. Just not my cup of tea.

doctor evil

Ah come one Dusty87 not every shot will kill it's target cleanly. If a fox is caught the lead hound will quickly kill and the rest will tear the dead body (important distinction) and eat it up.

Hunt generally have a good relationship with landowners and often have folk that will repair damage if any is caused.

Dusty87

doctor evil wrote: »

Ah come one Dusty87 not every shot will kill it's target cleanly. If a fox is caught the lead hound will quickly kill and the rest will tear the dead body (important distinction) and eat it up.

Hunt generally have a good relationship with landowners and often have folk that will repair damage if any is caused.

Jeez come down of your high horse(excuse pun). I never said every shot is a quick kill did i? Ok so, you think that a fox being shot, with good shot placement most of the time, not knowing what hit it is worse than him running for his life being chased by hounds? Iv seen hunts, one very good friend of mine is in one, and no the hounds dont do a quick kill. He'l admit that. Are you saying that in the split seconds it takes for the pack to catch up, the hound has the fox dead?
@ hunts and farmers. I was speaking of my area, thats why i said 'i hope its not like that everywhere'. Fair play to the ones who do repair ditches. I never knocked the sport, just said it wasnt 'my' cup of tea.

johngalway

Weidii wrote: »

One thing that I never quite understood is why people don't build fox/mink proof enclosures for their chickens, and since the lambs are only vulnerable at a young age, keep them enclosed until they're big enough to avoid being attacked.

There's no excuse not to do this, as modern technology allows it and I'm sure it couldn't cost more in time/money than they spend on hunts and traps.

Are you thirsty for blood or are you really just trying to protect your livestock?

Sorry for dredging up an old thread, I just found this forum and would like to address this point as I'm a sheep farmer and also a firearms owner.

It is possible to build enclosures to protect "hobby" chickens. Ones kept for eggs for the house and so forth. However, the important aspect is the scale of the operation. It would most likely not be practical for larger outfits due to the financial outlay on materials, labour and perhaps machinery involved.

Lambs are vulnerable for quite a while in their young lives. Housing them for that time again would place unrealistic strain on a farm. There are many costs associated with housing sheep such as straw bedding, mill feed stuffs, hay etc. There is also an animal welfare element. A person in charge of housed sheep really needs to know their stuff, as disease can spread rapidly within a shed, often with fatal consequences. Also, lambs reared out of doors are generally better of as it's a natural healthier environment for them and grass is better for a ewes milk production than feed stuffs.

Farming, like anything else, is a business. There is a bottom line that needs to be met, like in any other walk of life. But, animals and their welfare are very important to the vast majority of farmers, and that is a fact. I won't pontificate and say all farmers are perfect, we are not. Yet neither are all bird watchers, Gardai, doctors, or golfers. There are malicious and unsuitable persons in all category of work and hobby in the world.

Electric fencing can be an option on some farms. The main job a fence has is to keep stock where they're put, for their own safety (out of ditches etc) and that of the general public (off roads). I don't believe electric fencing would keep the breed of sheep I have, Scottish Blackface, due to their nature.

Considering the above, the most obvious problem I see is electric fencing would be an added cost with little benefit for the outlay and upkeep. Around this area most farms are spread out, a field here and there. Where docile animals are kept and the farm, or lambing fields is in one block with say a river or a lake taking up one or more sides then it may be an effective option.

Modern technology is a good thing for sure. However, excuses are not provided here, reasons from a semi experienced farmer are.

I both shoot and trap. I do both as both a necessity for my business and that of my family and neighbours and as a general interest.

If an individual keeps hens, ducks or geese then foxes can be a threat all year. The important part of that sentence is "can be". I have seen peoples fowl wiped out by foxes, that's life, the fox is doing what the fox does, the stock owner does what they do and sorts out the problem themselves or calls someone like me.

What initially got me into this was the year my Dad got his hip replaced, about four years ago now. I put 32 ewes, all in lamb, into a 20 acre field. I expected something around 38 lambs to come out of that field, based on the land, the breed of sheep, and previous experience, and also took into account any ewes who had not gone in lamb. Husbandry was mentioned earlier so I'll put it this way, my lamb mortalities were in the 1-2 lamb bracket previous to that year, that's not %, that's actual lambs. 16 lambs left that 20 acre field when all was done and dusted.

I contacted a local man in the middle of lambing and we went there one night. At the same time, when we shone the lamp over the field, there were six foxes in among the ewes and lambs. He shot 13 foxes that week in a very small area.

Spring of last year I was contacted. Farmer about six miles from me had lost 18 lambs in one week. I shot a vixen, who wasn't rearing cubs, the Saturday night. One lamb went the next week. Shot another similar vixen the next Saturday night. No more losses. This farmer is very aware of what she's doing with her stock. Her sheep are in excellent condition, she's very diligent about their care and the condition of the farm regarding grass levels, stock movements, drainage, weed control etc.

I have personal knowledge of foxes attacking and successfully killing older sheep, beyond one year old and under two year old. They are remarkable animals in their resourcefulness and ability to kill prey.

A beneficial point on controlling the number of foxes can be proven by examining the condition of foxes in an area they're uncontrolled and comparing the same area's foxes after two or three years of control. When I started I used often shoot foxes riddled with mange, they were also quite on the light side weight and size wise. Now, I can't tell you when I last saw mange, the vast majority of foxes I see now are larger than before, heavier and generally in much improved condition due to less competition for food and the mangey foxes being removed on sight.

Why do I do it? Simply, it needs to be done. I think I've given enough reasons as to why.

Valmont

SeaFields wrote: »

A fox hunts for food

This notion of some canines as ethical hunters is ridiculous. I've heard the same stories about wolves "who only pick the weak and sick" and "only if they're hungry". It's nonsense. I've seen a fox pup play with a vole, tossing it up in the air, pinning it down, and doing the same thing all over again; I watched this for about 10 minutes. I spent the last two summers living right next to a fox den and about a 4 hour hike from a general area that had a wolf den. I've seen some fat wolves and some chubby foxes. Hunting for food doesn't necessarily mean that it needs the food to survive, these animals are opportunistic and will grab a meal regardless of whether they have just had lunch. Elevating animals above their very animalistic nature is a gross perversion of the truth and it drives me mad! But yes, the cubs are very cute.

lightening

Good post Johngalway, great insight. I hope things are working out ok with the floods lately.

Have you ever seen a fox attack a healthy sheep? Even a video? I can't find one on youtube. I honestly thought there would be one.