Farm fox last night on RTE

E39MSport

johngalway wrote: »

Why do I do it? Simply, it needs to be done. I think I've given enough reasons as to why.

Don't you mean 'Money'?

Stark contradiction there pal. You mentioned animal welfare (your cash cows) several times while you talk of trapping and shooting other animals.

Is this in the correct forum?

lightening

He is running a business E39. That is essentially what farming is. It's not a vocation to feed the masses. The better he looks after his animals the better they taste. He's there to make money, I don't think he should make apologies for that. It's like any business, if he was a printer he would maintain his press as best he can.

I just wonder if the foxes are that damaging to sheep, that's all.

(without getting in to a mad row)

It wasn't me!

I personally don't make a crusade of shooting foxes. My own research as to their impact is inconclusive. It's certain that they're damaging, but the extent is unclear to me. As I'm not involved with farming I don't have the perspective of those who are. As a result, I prefer to trust the judgement of the landowners with regard to fox control and will carry it out quite happily on request.

E39MSport

lightening wrote: »

He is running a business E39. That is essentially what farming is. It's not a vocation to feed the masses. The better he looks after his animals the better they taste. He's there to make money, I don't think he should make apologies for that. It's like any business, if he was a printer he would maintain his press as best he can.

I just wonder if the foxes are that damaging to sheep, that's all.

(without getting in to a mad row)

Understood :-) - hence the 'money' statement from me. He kills foxes simply to maintain his profit. I have a problem with that. Seems like the easy option to me.

I don't want my stuff robbed but I don't shoot anyone that attempts to do so whether it's legal or not. I have adequate protective measures in place.

Vegeta

F02 21/03/2007: Plastic, unknown vegetation, apple, rodent, beetles
F07 21/03/2007: Caterpillars, lizard, beetles, leatherjackets and vegetation
F09 01/03/2007: Calf nuts, rabbit and sheep, caterpillars, worms, beetles, seeds.
F11 17/04/07: Sheep
F12 17/04/07: Rabbit or hare, beetles, worms, maggots, leather jackets.
F13 23/04/07: Worms, beetles, pine needles
F14 28/04/07: Sheep, beetles
F15 07/05/07: Dragonfly (most of stomach eaten by birds)
F16 19/05/07: Sheep, beetle
F17 19/05/07: Mice and voles, leather jacket, beetles, ants
F21 20/06/07: Sheep
F24 27/06/07: Field mouse, leather jacket, beetle, coachman, lichen
F25 01/07/07: Carrion, beetles, maggots.
F27 04/04/07: Bird, vegetation, mouse, coachman
F28 11/07/07: Passiforme bird, beetles, vegetation
F29 13/07/07: Sheep carrion, maggots, vegetation, beetles, grasshopper
F39 23/07/07: Sheep carrion, beetles
F40 24/07/07: Sheep carrion, beetles
F41 31/07/07: roundworm, beetles, vegetation seeds
F47 12/08/07: Carrion, slugs, blowfly larvae, beetles, blackberry seeds
F48 13/08/07: Carrion, beetle carapace, blackberries
F49 13/08/07: Domestic cat, rat, crab, vegetation, beetle.
F58 14/10/07: Carrion, maggots, beetles, vegatation
F75 19/10/07: Beetles
F84 31/10/07: Empty
F85 31/10/07: Carrion
F101 11/11/07: Grass, caterpillars, leatherjackets, maggots, beetles.
F102 11/11/07: Beetles
F107 17/11/07: Chicken, apple, grasses

From a study I know John helped out in

29 foxes, 8 had sheep in their belly.

Clearly these were shot around a sheep farm but if the questions is "Do foxes around a sheep farm eat sheep?" Well then the answer is yes.

Vegeta

E39MSport wrote: »

Understood :-) - hence the 'money' statement from me. He kills foxes simply to maintain his profit. I have a problem with that. Seems like the easy option to me.

So I assume you don't eat any food where animals have died in its production? Like meat, fish, intensively grown vegetables, cereals and other crops

Because I find it hard to see why you'd have a problem with it but yet hand over money to support it.

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

From a study I know John helped out in

29 foxes, 8 had sheep in their belly.

Clearly these were shot around a sheep farm but if the questions is "Do foxes around a sheep farm eat sheep?" Well then the answer is yes.

I am fully aware they eat dead sheep, I just wonder how many they kill.

lightening

E39MSport wrote: »

I don't want my stuff robbed but I don't shoot anyone that attempts to do so whether it's legal or not. I have adequate protective measures in place.

Some farmers will!

I wouldn't let comparing shooting foxes with humans cloud your judgment.

E39MSport

Vegeta wrote: »

So I assume you don't eat any food where animals have died in its production? Like meat, fish, intensively grown vegetables, cereals and other crops

Because I find it hard to see why you'd have a problem with it but yet hand over money to support it.

Good job I'm not living my life to please you then.

Vegeta

E39MSport wrote: »

Good job I'm not living my life to please you then.

Enjoy your life as a hypocrite then

_Kooli_

My mum leaves the scraps of the dinner out at night for the foxes.
They must be on the third or fourth generation of foxes eating it now.
Even when we go outside the foxes just walk around us and let us pet them. They arent afraid at all.

There was a hunt a few miles down the road. A couple of years ago they were going through the field at the bakc. The fox ran up though the ditch and hid behind my mum, shaking with fear, looking out from under her dress. It was the most amazing thing i ever saw.

The hounds stayed outside the ditch. But a few minutes later these 2 idiots in their riding gear jumped through the ditch, breaking it and the fence up in bits. They saw the fox and the look on my Mums face and just turned around and left. Breaking more of the fence getting over it.

That fox stayed in the Garden all night and they still visit regularly.

Vegeta

lightening wrote: »

I just wonder how many they kill.

How can that question be answered?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vegeta wrote: »

How can that question be answered?

It can't really, but studies are carried out. Believe it or not, people study these things through observation. Foxes have been recorded feeding on dead sheep known not to have been killed by the Fox. And, there have been no observed instances of Foxes killing Sheep although they have been regularly observed killing other prey.

Dusty87

lightening wrote: »

Good post Johngalway, great insight. I hope things are working out ok with the floods lately.

Have you ever seen a fox attack a healthy sheep? Even a video? I can't find one on youtube. I honestly thought there would be one.

I dont think they would attack a fully grown healthy sheep would they??
More so lambs?

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

How can that question be answered?

I don't know, observation I guess. I have seen a video of a fox attacking a very lame sheep, nothing else. Just thought I was bringing up good questions about the danger foxes really are to sheep before the thread was sidetracked with E39MSport bizarre comments.

That's all.

johngalway

lightening wrote: »

Good post Johngalway, great insight. I hope things are working out ok with the floods lately.

Have you ever seen a fox attack a healthy sheep? Even a video? I can't find one on youtube. I honestly thought there would be one.

I have seen small hoggets that were killed by fox. There was no sign of disease about them, and I knew the past history regarding vaccinations and dosing. I also know of other farmers who've reported same. As for video I don't own a video camera, it's on the list but it's a very long list I'm afraid :eek:

We're not flooded here thankfully. Although the ground is about as wet as it can be this area is simply too hilly and too near the sea to get flooded. I wouldn't chance walking on some areas of the bog out back of the hill here though, too dangerous at the moment with this much water in the ground.

lightening

johngalway wrote: »

I have seen small hoggets that were killed by fox. There was no sign of disease about them

Right, fair enough, tracks, kill bite marks etc...?

johngalway wrote: »

We're not flooded here thankfully. Although the ground is about as wet as it can be this area is simply too hilly and too near the sea to get flooded. I wouldn't chance walking on some areas of the bog out back of the hill here though, too dangerous at the moment with this much water in the ground.

I was thinking that if you had blackface. Are the bogs really that dangerous? How bad, do you just sink?

Sorry for going off topic mods, but I find this really interesting. A rare Dub with an A in Honours Agricultural science in my leaving.

johngalway

lightening wrote: »

I just wonder if the foxes are that damaging to sheep, that's all.

(without getting in to a mad row)

I suppose it depends on how you go about quantifying damage. It's a given that foxes will take lambs. I have seen pairs of foxes in action, they pick out a ewe that has twin lambs. One fox will, literally, nose the ewe in the tail so she jumps up and turns to face the retreating fox. The second fox nips in and steals a lamb. On my dads farm, during lambing, in certain fields I've seen the ewes entirely avoid areas of those fields where I know foxes routinely travel.

I think it was mentioned earlier about shooting, that not every shot kills cleanly. That's indeed correct, though good shooters go to extraordinary lengths to avoid this.

To contrast that, and give a natural hunters side of it not all lambs are killed cleanly. I can't tell you how many lambs I've seen over the years left wounded. Puncture wounds to the neck and back, tails stripped down to the bone etc. I don't know what's in a foxs saliva but it's a real job curing up those bite marks. Those lambs then tend not to thrive afterwards.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here but certain birds are also a risk to stock. Greycrows, magpies and greater black backed seagulls to name three. They would be more opportunists compared to the fox who's more of a hunter. The examples of the damage I can give off the top of my head would be very young lambs, or sick or injured animals.

Ewes will tend to leave a lamb in one spot and head off to graze, they'll also leave the lamb if they're called to get meal fed. I have seen greycrows, and also ravens, stalk these lambs. A very young lamb, say under three days old, won't realise anything is wrong as they don't yet have the cop on to know.

Sick and injured animals, or sheep, whether through pregnant or whatever, that roll onto their back and can't right themselves are also at risk. I can treat and cure most sick or injured animals I find. The problem is greycrows, magpies, gulls and ravens will pick the eyes, tounges, guts and ass out of these animals as they lie defenseless. As I mentioned before, most farms here are spread about, one person can only be in so many places at the one time. So there are times when an unfortunate animal that's rendered defenseless but curable is killed, or maimed by birds. Again, like the fox, they're only doing what they know how to do.

I've heard of mink killing young lambs as well, biting them about the neck and letting them bleed out, but I've thankfully not had this myself.

So it depends on what you would consider damaging. I know that farmer who lost 18 lambs in one week would have been almost cleaned out of lambs had those two vixens not been shot. I know my dads farm would have almost been cleaned out that year he was in hospital had I not called someone in.

Don't know if that answers your question or not, but those are my experiences and those of people I know and trust their word.

johngalway

lightening wrote: »

Right, fair enough, tracks, kill bite marks etc...?



I was thinking that if you had blackface. Are the bogs really that dangerous? How bad, do you just sink?

Sorry for going off topic mods, but I find this really interesting. A rare Dub with an A in Honours Agricultural science in my leaving.

Bite marks about the neck then various parts ripped and removed, not done by dogs though, had that happen a few times before. I did see fox prints in a muddy spot yes.

Just editing to add, I don't have all the answers, I just know what I've seen on my farm and elsewhere and am relating those experiences as best I can.

As for the bogs, they can be dangerous yes. Even two or three summers ago I crossed one bog foolishly. I was walking normally, I'm not over weight, and on each footstep the ground, if you could call it that, was "rippling" around me thirty yards or so. All the ground was was a light skim of vegetation over water I'm sure. Once you're around bogs a while you get to know the do's and don'ts of where to go, but there's always room to get caught out the odd time Especially on flat bog like the area I'm talking about, plenty of lakes too.

Yeah, you can just sink. I saw it happening one time we were searching for a young lad who sadly got drowned. Three guys walking forty yards ahead of us, the middle guy had yellow oilers on. One second you see him, next second he was to his armpits. Lucky he had a person either side of him! His mistake was walking on an obvious black patch in an already soft area, need to pay attention to where you walk.

E39MSport

Vegeta wrote: »

Enjoy your life as a hypocrite then

Ah, you should have said so in the first place !

You know nothing about me. Keep your abuse to yourself if you don't mind.

Vegeta

Monroe Greasy Stripe wrote: »

It can't really, but studies are carried out. Believe it or not, people study these things through observation. Foxes have been recorded feeding on dead sheep known not to have been killed by the Fox. And, there have been no observed instances of Foxes killing Sheep although they have been regularly observed killing other prey.

lightening wrote: »

I don't know, observation I guess. I have seen a video of a fox attacking a very lame sheep, nothing else. Just thought I was bringing up good questions about the danger foxes really are to sheep before the thread was sidetracked with E39MSport bizarre comments.

That's all.

I just read the abstract of "Fox predation as a cause of lamb mortality on hill farms"

It states that up to 0.6% of lambs are confirmed killed by foxes over a 4 year period with, with a further 1.9% who go "missing". Not too bad at all I was thinking

BUT, the mortality rate is 10% so of lambs who die, 6% are confirmed killed by foxes with 19% unaccounted for (May or may not have been killed at the teeth of predators)

And that's averaged over a 4 year period. What if it was 0% for 3 years and 24% for the 4th year. That's how it seems to work in reality too. No issue for a while and then you get a problem fox who does a lot of damage.

I wouldn't mind getting the full report (think it costs money) but even better I'd love to see one done here properly in Ireland.

Vegeta

E39MSport wrote: »

Ah, you should have said so in the first place !

You know nothing about me. Keep your abuse to yourself if you don't mind.

Well if you protest John killing animals to feed himself but have no problem with the killing of animals to feed you, well you are being hypocritical.

If you are a vegan who only eats organically sourced food then you are not a hypocrite and wouldn't take offence.

If you're not, well then you are practising hypocrisy and are therefore defined in the dictionary as a hypocrite. It's not a swear word, it is simply the English language word for describing what you are doing.

E39MSport

Vegeta wrote: »

Well if you protest John killing animals to feed himself but have no problem with the killing of animals to feed you, well you are being hypocritical.

If you are a vegan who only eats organically sourced food then you are not a hypocrite and wouldn't take offence.

If you're not, well then you are practising hypocrisy and are therefore defined in the dictionary as a hypocrite. It's not a swear word, it is simply the English language word for describing what you are doing.

Jebus, and I've been accused for being on a high horse for obeying speed limits ...
John, does Fox taste like chicken?

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

I just read the abstract of "Fox predation as a cause of lamb mortality on hill farms"

It states that up to 0.6% of lambs are confirmed killed by foxes over a 4 year period with, with a further 1.9% who go "missing". Not too bad at all I was thinking

Jaysus, that it tiny. Amazing.

Really interesting stuff Vegeta and Johngalway.

E39M.... ?

Vegeta

E39MSport wrote: »

Jebus, and I've been accused for being on a high horse for obeying speed limits ...

The one you're on now is pretty high too.

And considering you are not a vegan I cant understand how you remain in the saddle when there isn't a leg to stand on

Vegeta

lightening wrote: »

Jaysus, that it tiny. Amazing.

Really interesting stuff Vegeta and Johngalway.

Yeah I was surprised at the number but would have liked to have seen a few things: They were the confirmed number and what was suspected number. Also how many a year or was it one bad year

Would like to see a report on low land sheep farms

There's one on the same site too for farmers who raise chicken and it seemed a little higher especially for egg farmers for some reason.

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

There's one on the same site too for farmers who raise chicken and it seemed a little higher especially for egg farmers for some reason.

Easier to carry off!! Plus the panic in the coup I guess. I'd say the free range farmers have some fencing! I honestly would imagine they just cost it in though.

Valmont

E39MSport wrote: »

Ah, you should have said so in the first place !

You know nothing about me. Keep your abuse to yourself if you don't mind.

The opinions you have expressed in this thread are completely hypocritical for the obvious reasons Vegeta pointed out, so I wouldn't call it abuse, maybe "telling it like it is".

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Valmont wrote: »

The opinions you have expressed in this thread are completely hypocritical for the obvious reasons Vegeta pointed out, so I wouldn't call it abuse, maybe "telling it like it is".

Can we get back to discussing Nature?

Valmont

Monroe Greasy Stripe wrote: »

Can we get back to discussing Nature?

This thread isn't about nature; it's about foxes. If you would like to discuss nature, try here.

Considering you specifically quoted my post may I suggest you send me a PM to discuss any grievances you might have with my posting or perhaps you could report the post for the moderators.