Lance watch

Diarmuid

Lumen wrote: »

Lance's blood values are constant because he is the greatest cyclist of all time.

43 is the new 49

petethedrummer

Why is all the Lovestrong turning to Hatestrong? Typical Irish Begrudgestrong.

penexpers

BarryM wrote: »

You poor disillusioned person, do you know anything about human physiology? If the data is correct then there has to have been some interference with the blood. It is impossible to have used the energy required to ride in the Tour for three weeks without changes in the various indicators of blood quality. Over the years since Armstrong first won the Tour the quantity and value of blood quality data has improved dramatically. One of the many books about the Tour and doping published before this years version has a detailed analysis of this and the role that Ferrari played in 'helping' Armstrong to manage his hemocryt for example.

Bye, Barry

Dear Barry,

I really don't think you should ever post on this forum again.

Diarmuid

Good article here. Even if you don't understand French the graphs are pretty self-explanatory

bcmf

penexpers wrote: »

Dear Barry,

I really don't think you should ever post on this forum again.

I dont think he will for some reason.

bcmf

petethedrummer wrote: »

Why is all the Lovestrong turning to Hatestrong? Typical Irish Begrudgestrong.

because we are all cynicalbastardstrong.

RobFowl

Diarmuid wrote: »

Lance spotted in the news again. He won't be twittering this one though...

Obscure Doc wants to make a name for himself by making allegations dressed as fact based on inadequate information and dodgy extrapolations shocker.........

bcmf

RobFowl wrote: »

Obscure Doc wants to make a name for himself my making allegations dressed as fact based on inadequate information and dodgy extrapolations shocker.........

YOU THERE>>>>>>Stop ruining the thread.:P

Lumen

bcmf wrote: »

YOU THERE>>>>>>Stop ruining the thread.:P

You tell 'im.

The only two candidates for our Friday afternoon flamefest are this and the "fat thighs cure cancer" one.

Please don't go ruining things with reasoned, qualified responses. :pac:

blorg

Diarmuid wrote: »

Good article here. Even if you don't understand French the graphs are pretty self-explanatory

Whatever about Armstrong, I am 100% confident Contador is clean.

petethedrummer

RobFowl wrote: »

Obscure Doc wants to make a name for himself by making allegations dressed as fact based on inadequate information and dodgy extrapolations shocker.........

Isn't Jakob Mørkebjerg one of Denmarks leading blood scientists?

He didn't dress it as fact, he said the HCT spikes could possibly be from blood manipulation or other reasons.

There's in-depth armchair analysis of it here. But it turns into a b!tch fest.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=3216&page=11

The concern is over the rise in HCT figure on two rest days 07/25/09 and 07/14/09 .

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/10/c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

This post probably highlights the concerns about the accompanying off-score values leading up to the tour. Can't say I understand what an off-score is. I can just about understand the hematocritc level.

So.. LA's OFF-score was within the normal range for almost an entire year before the 6/16/09 test, jumped well above this range for 2 tests right before the TdF, and then remained just above 95 thereafter. Notice that before 6/16/09, he didn't have a single OFF-score above 90 (except for a 90.3 on 2/19/09) and then after 6/17 he didn't have a single OFF-score below 93.3, and this was during the TdF when these values are supposed to drop

But fair play to him, he did go for a ride around the park. I'm not gonna add anymore to the debate though, the UCI will sort it all out.

Chips Lovell

Couldn't he just claim he had the trots on both rest days during the Tour?

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

The only two candidates for our Friday afternoon flamefest are this and the "fat thighs cure cancer" one.

You must have missed this thread

petethedrummer

el tonto wrote: »

Couldn't he just claim he had the trots on both rest days during the Tour?

I think his twitter said something about having the runs. The best prepared cyclist in the world may also have been dehydrated.

But really, I know how he got his HCT up. He just goddamn willed it up. Sheer force of personality kids.

alfalad

Anyone tell me what an off score is?

Diarmuid

petethedrummer wrote: »

Isn't Jakob Mørkebjerg one of Denmarks leading blood scientists?.

No no,... he's a hater, all gorged out on hatertots and haterade.

petethedrummer

alfalad wrote: »

Anyone tell me what an off score is?

no

alfalad

petethedrummer wrote: »

no

Ok so.

Google here I come!

petethedrummer

If you figure it out, pretend I'm a 6 year old and try explaining it to me.

alfalad

I found out what it is but not what it means! So thats no good to me!

copacetic

this story on wiggins profile had some info

http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-saturday-august-1-2009

'Off Score', which takes into account haemoglobin concentration - which correlates to haematocrit - and the concentration of reticulocytes, or immature red blood cells in an athlete's system.The Off Score is calculated thus: Off Score = Haemoglobin - (60 x Square Root of Reticulocytes).

The Off Score was developed as a more robust measure because reticulocytes tend to decrease when haemoglobin is artificially high. The upper limit for the Off Score is 134;

RobFowl

alfalad wrote: »

Anyone tell me what an off score is?

Its a figure that uses the hamoglobin level and the reticulocyte count. Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells and a low level of these indicates EPO (or similar) use

alfalad

copacetic wrote: »

this story on wiggins profile had some info

http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-saturday-august-1-2009

Thanks and I saw that I just wasn't sure how it would help the cyclist!

alfalad

RobFowl wrote: »

Its a figure that uses the hamoglobin level and the reticulocyte count. Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells and a low level of these indicates EPO (or similar) use

Low level resulting in a score of over 134?? Which he is a long way off even if it had increased during the tour.

petethedrummer

Correct, but for the first 6 months his offscore was in the 70s and 80s. After the 16th of June it is consistently in the 90s. NOW I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, I'm just paraphrasing other armchair experts when they say this seems suspicious.

bcmf

alfalad wrote: »

I found out what it is but not what it means! So thats no good to me!

So your'e fooked with Lisbon as well as me

bcmf

petethedrummer wrote: »

Correct, but for the first 6 months his offscore was in the 70s and 80s. After the 16th of June it is consistently in the 90s. NOW I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, I'm just paraphrasing other armchair experts when they say this seems suspicious.

Yeah but it sounded good.
Not like this expert nonsense from Rob Fowl.

BarryM

Diarmuid wrote: »

Good article here. Even if you don't understand French the graphs are pretty self-explanatory

Yea, this is the interesting part -

"Sa [Contador] performance est relativement moins troublante que celles de Riis, d'Indurain ou d'Armstrong."

Only because he is lighter.

As to the other comments on my previous post - I didn't see any trace of sarcasm in the various lauding posts on Armstrong, I didn't consider them that subtle. I was really reacting to the posts re the Danish analysis and the UCI comments. If you've looked at my previous comments on here you'll see I have been on the Armstrong case quite a while. I am used to the blind faith supporters.....

Back to the article; it indicates that there is either a significant improvement in the quality of riders, a distinct possibility, viz Bolt in the 100m; or there is a new regime of additives which has either not yet been detected or is being ignored. The graph of years v effort has an interesting gap in '99...... but goes back towards its pre 99 levels since.

Bye, Barry

BarryM

and here -
http://www.bikeworldnews.com/index.php/2009/09/04/astanas-antidoping-doc-responds-allegations-lance-armstrongs-blood-values/

"The European press was a twitter this week over allegations in an article originally published by Danish newspaper / Web site Ekstra Bladetran in which physiologist Jakob Mørkeberg examined Lance Armstrong’s Tour de France blood samples and said they might indicate a blood doping program. They were, of course, just allegations and the article did qualify the suspicions by saying that the values could just as well have been caused by dehydration or diarrhea.

Both Lance Armstrong (unless you count ‘How do I say “ssdd” in Danish?’ as a response. – Ed.] and the Astana team have been silent on the issue up until now, when Velo News finally pressed team management for a comment. Astana referred VN to Rasmus Damsgaard, who runs the team’s anti-doping program. Damsgaard call the article speculative, saying:

“I would like to point out that Jacob Mørkeberg in his interpretation of the blood profile emphasizes that the fluctuations – in addition to blood transfusion – can be caused by completely normal biological responses in the body. Mørkeberg therefore has not found that Lance Armstrong is doped – he merely pointed at variations in the blood values,” Damsgaard said in an email to VeloNews.

“There is currently no scientifically accepted method accepting that such fluctuations in a blood profile can be attributed to blood transfusions. Therefore, suggesting blood transfusion is merely speculating,” he continued.

Despite Damsgaard’s statement, I wouldn’t expect this to go away any time soon. “L.A. Confidentiel” author David Walsh probably has already contacted his publisher."

I wouldn't expect it to go away either.....

Bye, Barry

velo.2010

I presume 'ssdd' means 'same story different doctor'??

Anyway its two weeks tommorow since he took his spin round the park. Might just do a few laps of 'Lances Loop' to remember that fine day.

Lumen

"Barry, I find your lack of faith disturbing".

triv88

velo.2010 wrote: »

Anyway its two weeks tommorow since he took his spin round the park. Might just do a few laps of 'Lances Loop' to remember that fine day.

Please let this thread end on this postive thought.

BarryM

triv88 wrote: »

Please let this thread end on this postive thought.

OK, it is good that even Armstrong manages to get a few people on bikes, healthy. Pity his history as a rider has questions.

Bye

ROK ON

I do so hope and pray that when the new blasphemy laws come into force, that any bismirching of LA's fine character will be seen as an act of blasphemy act under said laws.

lukester

velo.2010 wrote: »

'Lances Loop'

Love it, does anyone think DCC would erect a plaque to name this route and honour the event?

Maybe we could organise an annual bike ride on the same route, the great man himself might even come back, he seemed to really like it here.

We could call it 'Lap Lance's Loop' or 'Livestrong Loop Lap'. It could be a fun day out for all the family, maybe even themed, with cowboy hats (over helmets of course LOL!!!)?

godihatethehils

From Lance's twitter....

lancearmstrongAnd hey LA, we riding? Dublin set the bar pretty high. . .

seems we made quite the impression

petethedrummer

lukester wrote: »

Love it, does anyone think DCC would erect a plaque to name this route and honour the event?

How about an effigy of him nailed to the papal cross? I have a hammer and lots of nails.

ednwireland

godihatethehils wrote: »

From Lance's twitter....

lancearmstrongAnd hey LA, we riding? Dublin set the bar pretty high. . .

seems we made quite the impression

more like feed his ego

Will this thread never die ?

lukester

petethedrummer wrote: »

How about an effigy of him nailed to the papal cross? I have a hammer and lots of nails.

Why you got to hate on the Lancemeister?

Remember, it's Livestrong pete, not Hatestrong.

Diarmuid

ROK ON wrote: »

I do so hope and pray that when the new blasphemy laws come into force, that any bismirching of LA's fine character will be seen as an act of blasphemy act under said laws.

"Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah"

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

"Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah"

"The variations are within the noise, but that is if you're not doing anything. If you're not doing strenuous exercise, you wouldn't expect these values to change."

The obvious conclusion is that Lance doesn't find the TdF very strenuous.

RobFowl

petethedrummer wrote: »

Isn't Jakob Mørkebjerg one of Denmarks leading blood scientists?

Just read Diarmuids link
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks
He's far from a leading scientist he's a PHD student waiting for his thesis to be be examined !
Blown his chance of a job in the Bio passport system as well now :rolleyes:

petethedrummer

RobFowl wrote: »

Just read Diarmuids link
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks
He's far from a leading scientist he's a PHD student waiting for his thesis to be be examined !
Blown his chance of a job in the Bio passport system as well now :rolleyes:

Grand, he's not a leading expert. Is everything he says wrong/misguided or overly simplified?

Ok I'll put it this way. Let say these values belonged to someone else. While they are not breaking any doping rules, would they lead to targetted testing? Or are they perfectly acceptable? Educate me!!!!

RobFowl

petethedrummer wrote: »

Grand, he's not a leading expert. Is everything he says wrong/misguided or overly simplified?

Ok I'll put it this way. Let say these values belonged to someone else. While they are not breaking any doping rules, would they lead to targetted testing? Or are they perfectly acceptable? Educate me!!!!

They wouldn't lead to targeted testing, allowing for the standard margins of error his claims simply don't add up, also the off score is well below the radar in terms or suspicion.

Basically he is making veiled accusations based on inadequate levels of information (bad science and a poor reflection on his professional credentials)

The same guy also reckons Wiggins is on the sauce too if you read the article.

petethedrummer

Yup I read it and the Wiggins implication. That's grand, I love Lance now.

I wish they'd release historical records of dirty, dodgy and clean riders; anonymously or otherwise. If I've learned anything over the last while its that cycling needs more numbers and graphs.

RobFowl

petethedrummer wrote: »

Yup I read it and the Wiggins implication. That's grand, I love Lance now.

I wish they'd release historical records of dirty, dodgy and clean riders; anonymously or otherwise. If I've learned anything over the last while its that cycling needs more numbers and graphs.

Matt Rendell's The death of Pantani has his figures listed, Its an extreme case but interesting to say the least.
Basso publishes his on his website (compare him now to when he won the Giro) :rolleyes:.
http://www.mapeisport.it/IvanBasso/default.asp?LNG=EN

Diarmuid

RobFowl wrote: »

Just read Diarmuids link
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks
He's far from a leading scientist he's a PHD student waiting for his thesis to be be examined !
Blown his chance of a job in the Bio passport system as well now :rolleyes:

just to clarify:

JM: I'm an exercise physiologist, Copenhagen University graduating 2006, and I have just written up my PhD and submitted it one week ago, the PhD is about detecting autologous blood transfusions in an anti-doping context.

AS: And you have published with Damsgaard and Ashenden.

JM: Yes.

Scientists do write PhD thesis.

RobFowl wrote: »

Basically he is making veiled accusations based on inadequate levels of information (bad science and a poor reflection on his professional credentials)

Anything to back up that claim?

Jakob Moerkeberg: There was a journalist from Denmark’s Radio that approached me, called me last Tuesday. He asked if I had seen the results posted on Armstrong's website, and I had. Then he asked me how I interpreted the data, and I told him what I saw, and he asked me if I was willing to say that on television.

AS: So you didn't initiate it? The typical criticism is, "He must need a grant, he's trying to make a name for himself."

JM: In 2007, when Michael Rasmussen also posted his values, there was another journalist who approached me. I took a stance on that also.

petethedrummer

RobFowl wrote: »

http://www.mapeisport.it/IvanBasso/default.asp?LNG=EN

Great link. There's enough graphs and figures to choke a donkey there.

petethedrummer

Diarmuid wrote: »

just to clarify:

Scientists do write PhD thesis.

Anything to back up that claim?

You're worse than me.

RobFowl

Diarmuid wrote: »

just to clarify:



Scientists do write PhD thesis.


Anything to back up that claim?

Expert scientists have PHD's, he has submitted his which means it is being assessed by the university and he whill be getting a viva exam on it in due course before it is granted. So technically he's a post grad student, sounds less impressive than "leading scientist".

He simply based his comments on the publiushed results here
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/60108/89838.jpg

A full FBC has 15+ parameters measured on it he's commenting on 2 (the 3rd is a factor of those 2) and also he does not know the margin of error or whether the readings were done in the same labs or with the same machines all of which could further extend the margin of error.

Finally stop making me defend Armstrong :mad:

I love Cancer FFS