Bray incident 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families

lostexpectation

thats what tom dunne said on newstalk this morning, is this guy permanently on prozac, he said Bray incident was 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families, in usual happy dappy voice with his 'im talking about inane drivel because thats what our marketeers tell me our listener want voice, and then he tries to tackle the bray 'tragedy'? Mr former poprock star and music dj, tackles a murder, two attempted murders and a suicide by stabbing and then goes back to talking about your favourite childhood sweet.

and it tragedy because? (well mainly cos the murderer killed himself) but because it was fight over love, over a girl.

ppl were ringing complaining about pat kenny too calling it a tragedy rather then murder

then he starts talking (puts on whistful tom dunne voice) about how its the oldest reason in the book, and if they were ever reason...., and goes on to describe the love life of these three,how they attended ncad etc and saying how out of character it was, what does he know? what does he think poorer people fight over ( or even what so called scumbags fight about ?)


he really did say he didn't think it was a knifecrime.... :eek:
____________________________________________________________--

MOD EDIT: Thread stays open. Simple as that.
If you want to discuss it, PM me.
Terry.

ScumLord

It's a knife crime in the sense a knife was involved but it's not really the same as criminals going out using knives to commit crime.

Red_Marauder

I must admit, to my own personal distaste, that when I heard about a stabbing incident in Bray I immediately thought "knackers at it again". Then when I read more about the story I thought it was tragic.

It was interesting to see a similiar story with the media. If the media are guilty of having double standards then so are we, the readers. I think it is, unfortunately, pretty representative of how people feel.

JONJO THE MISER

lostexpectation wrote: »

thats what tom dunne said on newstalk this morning, is this guy permanently on prozac, he said Bray incident was 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families, in usual happy dappy voice with his 'im talking about inane drivel because thats what our marketeers tell me our listener want voice, and then he tries to tackle the bray 'tragedy'? Mr former poprock star and music dj, tackles a murder, two attempted murders and a suicide by stabbing and then goes back to talking about your favourite childhood sweet.

and it tragedy because? (well mainly cos the murderer killed himself) but because it was fight over love, over a girl.

ppl were ringing complaining about pat kenny too calling it a tragedy rather then murder

then he starts talking (puts on whistful tom dunne voice) about how its the oldest reason in the book, and if they were ever reason...., and goes on to describe the love life of these three,how they attended ncad etc and saying how out of character it was, what doe he know? what does he think poorer people fight over ( or even what so called scumbags fight about ?)


he really did say he didn't think it was a knifecrime.... :eek:

Yeah i know its sickening isnt it, Just because there middle class, it was a Knife crime and that guy was a scumbag worse than any scumbag from a so called working class area.

Bob_Harris

Tragedy the killer committed suicide (if that is what happened) me balls.

TirNaNog.

Not the same as criminals?
That person was a criminal,Pure scum ,a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Agent Smith

Serriously, if you dont know the people involved, or the facts, Shut up

Poor Uncle Tom

Grab a knife and stab someone with it, it's a knife crime. It doesn't matter whether it slides through Ralph Lauren or Dunnes best to reach the heart, it's still a knife crime.

Dudess

How the guy who did it "isn't a scumbag" is beyond me...

I'm pretty shocked by the snobbery on AH (yes, really) - some posts on the thread about the babies born to different members of the same family are actually a bit depressing...

Class politics can be so nasty (I watched the film Lawn Dogs, about that very thing, last night - nearly had me in tears) - and I've made similar objections to reverse snobbery here, so no, I'm not "trying to be PC"...

AckwelFoley

Agent Smith wrote: »

Serriously, if you dont know the people involved, or the facts, Shut up

Excellent suggestion, however it has one gaping flaw.

This is AH.

No facts required apparently

Raze_them_all

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a knife crime in the sense a knife was involved but it's not really the same as criminals going out using knives to commit crime.

Pretty sure stabbing someone legally makes you a criminal.

Dudess

Oh right, so nobody can comment on a case unless they know the people personally?

And I've enough facts to go on - a lowlife stabbed two people repeatedly.

JONJO THE MISER

Dudess wrote: »

How the guy who did it "isn't a scumbag" is beyond me...

I'm pretty shocked by the snobbery on AH (yes, really) - some posts on the thread about the babies born to different members of the same family are actually a bit depressing...

Class politics can be so nasty (I watched the film Lawn Dogs, about that very thing, last night - nearly had me in tears) - and I've made similar objections to reverse snobbery here, so no, I'm not "trying to be PC"...

Aww you see After Hours is mostly made up of middle class posters and young professionals, i would say im one of the very few working class people on here.

Rabies

snyper wrote: »

Excellent suggestion, however it has one gaping flaw.

This is AH.

No facts required apparently

MOD COMMENT


Facts are required when backing up a story.

This is a serious topic, especially for those close to the family.

I'm reopening this thread.

Off topic trollish comments have been deleted.
Any more will follow with warning and/or bans.


As required here are some links to the facts from online media.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/romantic-rivalry-linked-to-bray-tragedy-422931.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0817/breaking4.htm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0817/bray.html

karlr42

In fairness, the family of any party in a story discussed on AH could be a boards member, and just last week we had "Ger the benefit thief", the actual subject of a thread, post and engage. I didn't see a lot of sensitivity shown to him.
Fact of the matter is, if you're willing to post on boards, you run the risk of being offended or hurt. As is often said to people spamming their businesses, this is a discussion board, where opinions are voiced. No-one forces the family or those knowing them to read this thread.

AckwelFoley

Rabies wrote: »

MOD COMMENT


Facts are required when backing up a story.

This is a serious topic, especially for those close to the family.

I'm reopening this thread.

Off topic trollish comments have been deleted.
Any more will follow with warning and/or bans.


As required here are some links to the facts from online media.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/romantic-rivalry-linked-to-bray-tragedy-422931.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0817/breaking4.htm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0817/bray.html

I would suggest you are referring to specific events of a sensative nature such as this story . I read alot of unsubstantiated nonsence on AH.

**Puts on helmet and prepares for mod wrath**



Now as for the "hes a scumbag- burn him" Yes i clearly understand, however i am a little uncomfortable with labeling him like this for one reason. I knew a guy that a few years back butchered his wife and children. I know him casually through business and as good a judge of somone as i may be i never seen this comming other than the fact that she was the town bike - and didnt hide it from him. He was a very mannerly polite and soft spoken gentleman. No criminal record, no history of violence..

What he did was horriffic there is no questioning that. I think they were tha actions of a sick sick tormented mind.. a scum bag? Im not sure

MagicMarker

If you want a proper discussion then move the thread to another forum ffs.

This is AH, why so sensitive now? Why not when Katy French died, or Jade Goody?

AckwelFoley

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you want a proper discussion then move the thread to another forum ffs.

This is AH, why so sensitive now? Why not when Katy French died, or Jade Goody?

decorum.

The bar is pretty low here but it does exist.

The reason being Ireland is a small nation. This is a very current and sad event and some sence needs to be kept.
I once made a comment in a similar case a year or so ago, and i received a brief email from somone that was related to the persons involved. Their comments were polite, briefly reminding me that what i said was inaccurate.

It made me think.

Normally im incapible of thought

Terry

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you want a proper discussion then move the thread to another forum ffs.

This is AH, why so sensitive now? Why not when Katy French died, or Jade Goody?

Quiet you.

Mike...

strange how it exists on this thread yet not on the is Mayo a no go area thread?
I am noticing a strong east coast bias on boards lately.

Anyone who stabs and murders someone, and also injures others is a lowlife regardless of location, east or west...

MagicMarker

snyper wrote: »

decorum.

The bar is pretty low here but it does exist.

The reason being Ireland is a small nation. This is a very current and sad event and some sence needs to be kept.
I once made a comment in a similar case a year or so ago, and i received a brief email from somone that was related to the persons involved. Their comments were polite, briefly reminding me that what i said was inaccurate.

It made me think.

Normally im incapible of thought

None (that I remember) of the posts that have so far been deleted in this thread were in bad taste. They were just typical AH responses. If you don't want typical AH responses then surely the best thing to do is move the thread from AH? Common sense no?

Anyway, just my opinion.

Terry

Mike... wrote: »

strange how it exists on this thread yet not on the is Mayo a no go area thread?
I am noticing a strong east coast bias on boards lately.

Anyone who stabs and murders someone, and also injures others is a lowlife regardless of location, east or west...

The thread has been re-opened, so you stay quiet too.

Discuss the topic at hand.
Problems with moderation belong in the help desk.

ilkhanid

I thnk it's simpler than class. This appears to have been a crime of passion (or madness) and people historically tend to have a different attitude to these killings than ones perpetrated-especially premeditated ones-for profit or pleasure. And this is understandable, to a degree.

My name is URL

What does it matter if he was a scumbag or not?

He's dead but still has a family who deserve some respect after losing a son and a brother

It's just a pity that those posting to demand respect here will next week abandon all morals and rejoice the death of someone else

Dudess

snyper wrote: »

Now as for the "hes a scumbag- burn him" Yes i clearly understand, however i am a little uncomfortable with labeling him like this for one reason. I knew a guy that a few years back butchered his wife and children. I know him casually through business and as good a judge of somone as i may be i never seen this comming other than the fact that she was the town bike - and didnt hide it from him. He was a very mannerly polite and soft spoken gentleman. No criminal record, no history of violence..

What he did was horriffic there is no questioning that. I think they were tha actions of a sick sick tormented mind.. a scum bag? Im not sure

He was though for these actions alone. Remember that case involving the missing little girl whose father was discovered hiding her and he killed her and himself before the garda net closed in fully? I had some sympathy for him because of his grief as a father who rarely got to see his little girl, but what he did to her mother and all the other loved ones she left behind... was scumbaggy.

I know the perpetrator in this case was still somebody's son/brother/friend (and my heart goes out to them - they must be shattered) and possibly unwell, but he did a vicious, hateful thing.
And if we're going to call some lad from Finglas who did something similar a "scumbag" but not the lad in this story, then it really does betray class bias. We have no way of knowing that a lad in Finglas who does something similar isn't a seemingly decent guy who flips either - the place he comes from doesn't make it a guarantee he has always been an anti-social lout.

Rabies

This thread isn't the place to discuss the the actions taken me.
We can do that in a different thread.

A serious crime was commited. People will voice emotional responses, its natural.

As for the 'scumbag' comment.
This is where I'm in two minds and torn. And it my personal opinion here.

Is it directed because he wasn't from a working class back ground and they called scumbags, then its the same brush for everyone.

Murderers get called 'scumbags', 'monsters' and what ever else in all topics. It is because their actions step out of line with normal rational thinking and methods.

Did anyone object when Maddie's abductor or Fritzel was called names?

I edited the more off topic posts and cleaned up the thread.

Looking back, ya sure, the scumbag comment could have been edited. But frankly people can be such a fickle bunch here its not possible to keep everyone happy.

dr.bollocko

Overheal wrote: »

>_>

<_<

well then,

/gets coat

Me f**kin too.
Your round.

AckwelFoley

Dudess wrote: »

He was though for these actions alone. Remember that case involving the missing little girl whose father was discovered hiding her and he killed her and himself before the garda net closed in fully? I had some sympathy for him because of his grief as a father who rarely got to see his little girl, but what he did to her mother and all the other loved ones she left behind... was scumbaggy.

I know the perpetrator in this case was still somebody's son/brother/friend (and my heart goes out to them - they must be shattered) and possibly unwell, but he did a vicious, hateful thing.
And if we're going to call some lad from Finglas who did something similar a "scumbag" but not the lad in this story, then it really does betray class bias. We have no way of knowing that a lad in Finglas who does something similar isn't a seemingly decent guy who flips either - the place he comes from doesn't make it a guarantee he has always been an anti-social lout.

I understand what you are saying however..

How many of these "Finglas" Knife crimes take place on the side of the street as opposed to the home as in this case. Most knife crimes in this country i would suggest are done on the street by people that probably have several criminal convictions for one thing or another.

Raze_them_all

snyper wrote: »

I understand what you are saying however..

How many of these "Finglas" Knife crimes take place on the side of the street as opposed to the home as in this case. Most knife crimes in this country i would suggest are done on the street by people that probably have several criminal convictions for one thing or another.

Ah but if your man had not commited suicide he would surely of ended up with a criminal conviction, Would you then label him a scumbag?

Dudess

Here's an example of a stabbing in a not-considered-lovely area over family/relationship issues:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/childcare-row-ended-in-fatal-stab-attack-on--father-trial-told-1552749.html

AckwelFoley

Rabies wrote: »

Did anyone object when Maddie's abductor or Fritzel was called names?

Fritzel raped his daughter over a period of 25 years. Thats not making a quick judgment on a single moment of maddness.

Maddie, well there are only 2 people that know where the child is, so its impossible to offend somone thats unknown.

My point, not known this chap, he has done an aweful thing and if he did it to someone i loved i would hate him, but he was obviously a sick young man that did something stupid in a single moment of overwhelming rage

Amazotheamazing

Anyone who grabs a knife to injury a person when not being threatened themselves is a nutjob scumbag. I'm sorry for his family, like I'm sorry for the family of the guy he murdered, and the girl he attempted to murder, but my sympathy for his family doesn't make him any less of a nutjob scumbag.

In a lot of ways it's far worse that he came from a good family, he had every chance in life, and this is the best he could with it?

Terry

If you get stabby, then you lose the right to protection in AH.
I don't care who you are, who you know, where you are from or what your family is like. If you stab someone, you are a scumbag. Circumstances be damned. You shouldn't have been carrying a knife in the first place.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:

His removal and funeral will take place on Thursday to the Church of the Assumption in Dalkey at 10am.

A funeral notice described him as the beloved son of Leonie and Patrick, and stepson of Tony.

He has four brothers, Liam, Jake, Jack, Henry, and two sisters Lucy and Holly.

Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

/ i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.

Amazotheamazing

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:




Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

/ i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.

Things like that are always sad when you put a human context on them. it makes the killer seem far more real. But it doesn't alter that he committed an unspeakably cowardly and pathetic act.

Dudess

It's more sad for his relations - absolutely heartbreaking.

Euro_Kraut

Dudess wrote: »

It's more sad for his relations - absolutely heartbreaking.

Exactly. They have to live with this - unlike him.

AckwelFoley

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:




Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

/ i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.

I think you might be reading too much into it.

My affections toward my siblings will remain steadfast regardless of their deeds

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

snyper wrote: »

I think you might be reading too much into it.

Actually i'm sure I am. It could easily be that the Times was just summarising the notice.

snyper wrote: »

My affections toward my siblings will remain steadfast regardless of their deeds

Same here. Which its why I thought it was really sad (based on the way I interpreted it).

gurramok

If i'm upset at something, i don't stab people for it. I'd mourn, cry, whatever to get over it, i would not hurt them as i have responsibility and a conscience.

The sad thing about the whole story was that they were so young, just 22. Whole life ahead of them, if the murderer only realised it wasn't the end of the world whatever had upset him into doing the deed.

It was a murder by knife hence it was a knife crime.

Riskymove

for me the difference is some one who carries a knife or other weapon who is happy to use same in rows after drinks every saturday - scumbag

and stabbings that occur in these situations tend to be what is called "knifecrime"

I think what Tom Dunne was talking about was the initial rush by media to portray the events as a drunken knifecrime row (probably after what happened elsewhere over the last week) and his belief that it was something different..while I'd agree, he did seem to make it sound very tragic, even romantic, if thats not too perverse to say

someone who happens to use a knife in a crime when obviously going over the edge, as in this case - criminal? sure, but not a scumbag per se and not what I would term knifecrime

however this guy stabbed three people and then killed himself, an horrific event for those involved and neighbours etc

Riskymove

gurramok wrote: »

If i'm upset at something, i don't stab people for it. I'd mourn, cry, whatever to get over it, i would not hurt them as i have responsibility and a conscience.

if i ever felt I understood why someone did something like this I'd be worried...people like him are obviously not in a normal state of mind...I cannot see how someone would see such actions as the answer to a problem

Eulick D

The key to cutting knife crime is tougher sentences

It is with inexhaustible vehemence that I deviate from this standpoint. The mere hypothesis of incomprehensible lexicon will indubitably provide more impetus for the utilisation of such a sharp bladed instrument.

Stark

The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

Nothing to do with class imo. I'll apply the term scumbag to a south Dublin middle class rugby lout as happily as I'll apply it to Junkie Joe from the inner city.

Mr Benevolent

The key to cutting knife crime is tougher sentences

How specifically would your proposal have stopped the knife crime at issue in this thread?

The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

There are no scapegoats in this one. I have to say that your comment is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. More probably he did it in a fit of passion. If he was severely mentally ill in that kind of middle class neighbourhood he would've been treated and been on medication. You can't blame the mentally ill on this.

average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

That comment beggars belief. Are middle class stabbings somehow better, more refined, less troubling then scumbags stabbing other scumbags? That's idiotic.

Put it like this. If you stabbed two friends you'd be pretty suicidal yourself. You wouldn't need to be mentally ill, just very angry and/or jealous.

Eulick D

Look closer.

Stark

The only way you would have stopped this is by having routine psychiatric screening for the entire population. And that's just not practical.

Second best option would probably be to promote the available mental health services more.

nlgbbbblth

Stark wrote: »

The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

exactly

anyone who can't see past this is being deliberately obtuse.

I imagine it was pre-meditated and he did have a motive [driven by jealousy].

Not the same as a random stabbing of someone unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And since when it is a crime to be middle class?

Unknown Soldier

A sad story, like all crime and death. You have to pity those left behind as well as the deceased.

I don't think they were scumbags as such. I didn't see any tracksuits in any of the pics.

SEPT 23 1989

the attitude to murder suicide sickens me in this country,brush it under the carpet till the next time and the next time

call them what they are

murderers

nlgbbbblth

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

the attitude to murder suicide sickens me in this country,brush it under the carpet till the next time and the next time

call them what they are

murderers

...and suicide victims.

I don't think the papers mentioned suicide in this case.

Instead the usual intelligence-insulting line of "not looking for anyone else in connection with his death" was trotted out. :rolleyes: