Bray incident 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families

gurramok

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

A sad story, like all crime and death. You have to pity those left behind as well as the deceased.

I don't think they were scumbags as such. I didn't see any tracksuits in any of the pics.

Scumbags come in all forms of clothing. The visible ones have tracksuits and the invisible ones do not, they are equally dangerous and cunning.

Mr.Obvious

TirNaNog. wrote: »

Not the same as criminals?
That person was a criminal,Pure scum ,a wolf in sheeps clothing.

If you wear a tracksuit and are a cnut you are a scumbag.
If you wear a suit and are a cnut you're savvy.

lostexpectation

Rabies wrote: »

MOD COMMENT


Facts are required when backing up a story.

This is a serious topic, especially for those close to the family.

I'm reopening this thread.

Off topic trollish comments have been deleted.
Any more will follow with warning and/or bans.


As required here are some links to the facts from online media.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/romantic-rivalry-linked-to-bray-tragedy-422931.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0817/breaking4.htm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0817/bray.html

i was talking bout tom dunnes description of the events theres no link to recording of what he said.

theres definitely a bias towards protecting the middle class and be dammed with the lower class in all forms of media

Mr Benevolent

Barry_Scott wrote: »

Have a little respect for the families and shut up with the stupid comments.

Scumbags who get stabbed in a fight have families who might be on Boards too. What's the difference? Should we show more respect because the murderer didn't wear a tracksuit? Or because they're middle class? The double standards shown here are truly sickening. Get a grip.

Unknown Soldier

<snip> Serious topic - Hagar <snip>

lostexpectation

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

exactly

anyone who can't see past this is being deliberately obtuse.

I imagine it was pre-meditated and he did have a motive [driven by jealousy].

Not the same as a random stabbing of someone unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And since when it is a crime to be middle class?

sorry are you saying premeditated murder is a better class of murder?

and we have others saying it was a moment of madness?

LadyE

Confab wrote: »

If he was severely mentally ill in that kind of middle class neighbourhood he would've been treated and been on medication. You can't blame the mentally ill on this.

Put it like this. If you stabbed two friends you'd be pretty suicidal yourself. You wouldn't need to be mentally ill, just very angry and/or jealous.

How do you know he wasnt. You dont.

This is a very tragic thing to happen. Three families are devastated by it.

I hope to god this raises mental illness awareness in this country and gets it out of the "snap out of it" mentality it seems to be in.

gurramok

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

How does one attain this invisability you speak of?

One is most interested.

Don't wear a tracksuit. Wear fancy clothes if you may. The person is still a wolf in a tracksuit or a Brown Thomas suit.

Its the person inside thats the problem, not the clothes.

Mr Benevolent

LadyE wrote: »

How do you know he wasnt. You dont.

This is a very tragic thing to happen. Three families are devastated by it.

I hope to god this raises mental illness awareness in this country and gets it out of the "snap out of it" mentality it seems to be in.

I simply doubt he was mentally ill. I have a wealth of personal experience dealing with mentally ill people, and generally they don't do what he did. I do agree that the general attitude to mental illness in this country is prehistoric and utterly unhelpful.

nlgbbbblth

lostexpectation wrote: »

theres definitely a bias towards protecting the middle class and be dammed with the lower class in all forms of media

That's a perception bandied about by middle class self-loathers. You may be one of them.

Compare two cases

- Anabels: Four posh boys with no previous convictions kill one of their contemporaries. Get quite lenient sentences. Media uproar all through the trial. Constant focus on their upbringing/backgrounds with the emphasis that they should have known better etc.

- New Ross: Eight working class dudes from tough estates and a prior reputation for being pricks kill a Swedish flower seller. I know this because I grew up there. Get even lighter sentences. No media uproar bar cursory reporting of the case. No focus whatsoever on their backgrounds.

Who are the Gardai more likely to target?

- A bunch of middle class students on a Mayday protest.

- A group of working class dudes openly dealing drugs on the Quays

lostexpectation wrote: »

sorry are you saying premeditated murder is a better class of murder?

A jealous and spurned guy with revenge on his mind is not going to be interested in stabbing someone other than his intended target.

A tooled-up nutcase who carries a knife every time he goes out sees every vulnerable person as a target. Rob 'em - knife 'em - f*ck 'em.

I know which one I'd rather face.

supersaint3

Agent Smith wrote: »

Serriously, if you dont know the people involved, or the facts, Shut up

If the first part of that were true none of us would be allowed to have an opinion about anything.

Unknown Soldier

<snip> I'll assume you didn't see your other post being edited. Not an assumption I'll be making again. - Hagar<snip>

My name is URL

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Who are the guards more likely to tackle?

- A bunch of middle class students on a Mayday protest.

- A group of working class dudes openly dealing drugs on the Quays

A jealous and spurned guy with revenge on his mind is not going to be interested in stabbing someone other than his intended target.

A tooled-up nutcase who carries a knife every time he goes out sees every vulnerable person as a target. Rob 'em - knife 'em - f*ck 'em.

I know which one I'd rather face.

wow, that's just fcuking stupid.

nlgbbbblth

My name is URL wrote: »

wow, that's just fcuking stupid.

please give reasons for your answer

Mr Benevolent

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

please give reasons for your answer

Ok, now this is going around in circles.

drkpower

My name is URL wrote: »

wow, that's just fcuking stupid.

Ridiculous comment.

Nigbbbth made a lot of sense. Yours.......eh......didnt.....:mad:

nlgbbbblth

Confab wrote: »

Ok, now this is going around in circles.

I made a point. I gave examples to back it up.

Fair enough if someone disagrees but I'd like to know why.

LadyE

Confab wrote: »

I simply doubt he was mentally ill. I have a wealth of personal experience dealing with mentally ill people, and generally they don't do what he did. I do agree that the general attitude to mental illness in this country is prehistoric and utterly unhelpful.

Generally they dont? So sometimes they do?

Stark

The only way this debate could become even more intellectual is for someone to start using the rolly eyes smiley.

TirNaNog.

LadyE wrote: »

Generally they dont? So sometimes they do?

But would you be claiming the person was mentally ill if they were from a working class area is the question?

Mr Benevolent

LadyE wrote: »

Generally they dont? So sometimes they do?

Correct. 86.34% of them don't do it. The remaining 13.66% go on medically sanctioned killing sprees with a bread knife :rolleyes:

LadyE

Class has nothing to do with it.

Unknown Soldier

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

<snip> I'll assume you didn't see your other post being edited. Not an assumption I'll be making again. - Hagar<snip>

First post 21:41. Hagar edit 21:49

Second post 21:51. Hagar edit 21.54.

Please dont assume I didn't know you edited my first post. Please know I didn't?

When I made my next post the last one had no edits.

just to clear that up.


I now remember why I read and don't post.

Thanks

LadyE

Confab wrote: »

Correct. 86.34% of them don't do it. The remaining 13.66% go on medically sanctioned killing sprees with a bread knife :rolleyes:

That doesn't even dignify a repsonse. Your post is bull****.

Bob_Harris

Oh, my post totally disappeared. Did it even get posted at all?

Should I post it again?

My name is URL

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I made a point. I gave examples to back it up.

Fair enough if someone disagrees but I'd like to know why.

You gave examples of something that doesn't matter in this case

A guy, regardless of class, decided for whatever reason to stick a knife into somebody and they died

At that point he became a murderer. That's all that matters really

Stark

LadyE wrote:

That doesn't even dignify a repsonse. Your post is bull****.

Confab in his infinite experience has never heard of sudden onset illness it would seem. I know people with relatives who were seemingly fine one day, had to be committed to hospital the next. Has apparently never encountered psychiatric patients who suffer from violent outbursts either.

JACK_the_LAD

I would 'nt call him a scum-bag 'cos i dont know the guy.

He is/was a crazed lunatic. He is/was a murderer.

There does appear to be a certain inconsistency on these boards I believe.

the MODS either close or clean up threads on this stabbing, but there have been other stabbings without such hightened (MOD) sensitivity. Speculate and name call all you wish in relation to these. Why is this?

My belief is, it is simply down to bias. Had this stabbing occured in Finglas, Clondalkin, or Crumlin, comitted by working-class men, then it would be open season.

But this occured in a middle-class area, comitted by a middle-class Trinity undergraduate, so we must be quiet.

This could well be attributable to threats of litigation from these same middle-classes, cos as we know after the Blacrock bootboys/Annabels & Waterloo Road "incidents" these middle-class parents do not like their precious little darlings being discussed.
Especially when some poor soul inconveniently ends up DEAD!

Because as we all know middle-class kids don't MURDER people in this little country. They just get involved in "incidents".:rolleyes:

Hagar

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Oh, my post totally disappeared. Did it even get posted at all?

Should I post it again?

I wouldn't bother.

Unknown Soldier wrote:

When I made my next post the last one had no edits.

Not true. 2 min difference by your own admission. Nevertheless I assumed you hadn't seen it and took no other action.

nlgbbbblth

My name is URL wrote: »

You gave examples of something that doesn't matter in this case

A guy, regardless of class, decided for whatever reason to stick a knife into somebody and they died

At that point he became a murderer. That's all that matters really

lost expectation made a general point about the middle class being sheltered and the lower classes being shafted by the media.

I gave the example of two similar cases as a contrast.

The subsequent example re May Day vs drugs was to illustrate why I think the "middle class get an easy time from the cops" is a fallacy.

Rabies

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Oh, my post totally disappeared. Did it even get posted at all?

Should I post it again?

No

lostexpectation

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

That's a perception bandied about by middle class self-loathers. You may be one of them.

Compare two cases

- Anabels: Four posh boys with no previous convictions kill one of their contemporaries. Get quite lenient sentences. Media uproar all through the trial. Constant focus on their upbringing/backgrounds with the emphasis that they should have known better etc.

- New Ross: Eight working class dudes from tough estates and a prior reputation for being pricks kill a Swedish flower seller. I know this because I grew up there. Get even lighter sentences. No media uproar bar cursory reporting of the case. No focus whatsoever on their backgrounds.
.

i really don't know how the contradicts what i said

theres definitely a bias towards protecting the middle class and be dammed with the lower class in all forms of media

I don't think the annabel 4 were demonised and or more importantly dehumanised as others attackers have been...

new ross case was simply ignored by the media, it wasn't protected, never heard about it myself. not a big crime fetishist, didn't indulging in reading any annabel 4 stuff either apart from what i couldn't ignore.

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

A jealous and spurned guy with revenge on his mind is not going to be interested in stabbing someone other than his intended target.

eh he stabbed the guys brother too afaik... was he his intended target? ( was the girl) who knows. stabbing and murder is messy...


yes 'a domestic' is different, and this is a type of domestic your much less likely to come across a domestic attack unless your personally involved, infact your highly unlikely too...so...

Bob_Harris

Hagar wrote: »

I wouldn't bother.

It was a pretty funny post though. Although this is a "serious" thread, but then again it is "AH", oh the conflict.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Tragic or not, it's horrible. Shouldn't be treaten any differant than anybody else.

Should people get less time in jail, or should pity/mercy be shown because they are from "good families"?

Equality? LOL...

nlgbbbblth

lostexpectation wrote: »

new ross case was simply ignored by the media, never heard about it myself. not a big crime fetishist, didn't indulging in reading any annabel 4 stuff either apart from what i couldn't ignore.

Wasn't ignored by the media but it was glossed over.

lostexpectation wrote: »

eh he stabbed the guys brother too afaik... was he his intended target? ( was the girl) who knows. stabbing and murder is messy...

I imagine that the brother was stabbed because he went to his sibling's assistance.

Stark

Tegan Delightful Peak wrote:

Tragic or not, it's horrible. Shouldn't be treaten any differant than anybody else.

Should people get less time in jail, or should pity/mercy be shown because they are from "good families"?

Equality? LOL...

The guy would only smell out the cells if they put him in jail at this point.

People get off lightly across the board in Ireland. Our justice system is soft on criminals, no matter their background. The only thing you can be sure to be banged up for is forgetting to pay the TV license it seems.

JACK_the_LAD

Stark wrote: »

Confab in his infinite experience has never heard of sudden onset illness it would seem. I know people with relatives who were seemingly fine one day, had to be committed to hospital the next. Has apparently never encountered psychiatric patients who suffer from violent outbursts either.

i agree this kid clearly was a nutter.
and a murdering nutter to boot.

Oh! and the kid he stabbed is still dead.

zuroph

lostexpectation wrote: »

what does he think poorer people fight over

drugs, horses, and cousins. and fights about drugs, horses, and cousins.

JACK_the_LAD

i think that which is angering people is the perception that the middle-classes in this grubby little bannana republic of ours seem to get away with murder.

not too far from Bray lies the sleepy little middle-class enclave of Greystones, home to a one Seanie Fitz.

" now talking about getting away with ..................":eek:

foxinsox

Class has nothing to do with this..

Two young men are dead...

Two other young people are seriously injured..

Nobody other than the people who were in that house on that night know what happened.. The full facts may never become public knowledge.

I'm sure the relatives and friends of both families are absolutley devasted. There are no rules as to how to deal with such a situation, it is a tragedy.

To come out saying scumbag, mentally ill about this young man is totally uncalled for as none of us has any idea what happened that night. I feel that it will be unimaginable for any of the members of either family to deal with these losses.

It is a tragic sad thing to happen regardless of where they are from, what college they were attending and how they were brought up. It could have happened in any class and would still be just as tragic.

My thoughts would be with the poor families of both young men who must be going through such conflicting emotions at the moment.

The Irish Times - Mon 17 August has accurate facts as far as I know.

Stark

JACK_the_LAD wrote: »

i agree this kid clearly was a nutter.
and a murdering nutter to boot.

Oh! and the kid he stabbed is still dead.

**** all that can be done about it now or even to prevent future similar incidents tbh. Best just to leave the families involved in peace.

Knife crime on the streets is a different matter because it is something that's preventable through better policing etc. That is reason to be incensed about complacency.

JACK_the_LAD wrote:

i think that which is angering people is the perception that the middle-classes in this grubby little bannana republic of ours seem to get away with murder.

The guy who committed the act is dead. How exactly is he "getting away with it"?

The Annabel case scumbags got away lightly with murder. But then so too does every other scumbag in this country (such as the New Ross gang mentioned earlier). Ireland is simply soft on crime full stop.

SeaFields

Getting back to the title of this thread I think this comes down to what the justice system would consider "a knifecrime". If the powers that be are not regarding this as a knifecrime it is most likely that it is not so as it was not premeditated and didn't happened on some street corner or back alley.

I don't think the social standing of the families has anything to do with how the crime is classed.

Screaming Eagle

Agent Smith wrote: »

Serriously, if you dont know the people involved, or the facts, Shut up

I think it is safe to say that not a lot of the people here know the facts :[

asterix

With the proviso that I don't know the people involved and have relied on media reports for my information, I would tentatively suggest the following:
Class is irrelevant here and, to that extent, Tom Dunne has been the subject of an unfair attack by the OP.
This is a classic "crime of passion". Any romantic, Shakespearean connotations are unfortunate, as, by definition, such a crime is perpetrated by someone not in their right mind. Anyone in such a state who survives the commission of their acts deserves treatment (even if compassion cannot be mustered) rather than demonisation. And yes, treatment may involve indefinite incarceration.
The perpetrator is reported as having been suffering from depression in the last number of weeks.
The perpetrator is said to have been tee-total.
The killing and woundings were clearly the acts of someone in a state of extreme mental distress/illness. How on earth could the perpetrator be seen to have been in any other mental state?
This is a devastating, unspeakable tragedy (yes tragedy, given that mental illness was clearly at play) for the deceased, the wounded and their relatives.
The mistake the OP has made is to correlate the fact that Tom Dunne designated this (accurately imo) to be other than a "run of the mill" knife crime ("crimes of passion" being relatively rare) with the fact that the victims/perpetrator of this crime just so happened to be middle class.
As I said at the beginning, class is irrelevant here.

Splendour

My name is URL wrote: »

You gave examples of something that doesn't matter in this case

A guy, regardless of class, decided for whatever reason to stick a knife into somebody and they died

At that point he became a murderer. That's all that matters really

I agree that class doesn't matter in a case such as this.
However, there is a huge difference between this and most other knife involved incidents. This man killed himself after he realised what he had done therefore admitting his guilt.
R.I.P to both lads involved and prayers to the brother and girl in the hospital and to all the families involved.

TirNaNog.

Splendour wrote: »

I agree that class doesn't matter in a case such as this.
However, there is a huge difference between this and most other knife involved incidents. This man killed himself after he realised what he had done therefore admitting his guilt.
R.I.P to both lads involved and prayers to the brother and girl in the hospital and to all the families involved.

the same as the man in USA walked into a gym full of women and riddeled them with a machine gun,and killed himself therefore admitting his guilt.

procure11

Terry wrote: »

If you get stabby, then you lose the right to protection in AH.
I don't care who you are, who you know, where you are from or what your family is like. If you stab someone, you are a scumbag. Circumstances be damned. You shouldn't have been carrying a knife in the first place.

I am not sure if anyone has quoted this as I havent read the whole thread...but this pretty sums it all up.

In the eyes of the law ..there is very relative distinction between murderers..especially one that purposely armed himself with a weapon ( he didnt intend to use to cut his birthday cake)...it was a calculated attempt to cause harm on another person.

This so called person was from a good background so I would assume he/she wasnt under the influence of drugs before deciding to take another persons life..I would personally jail the person for life simply because he/she cannot be trusted to exercise reasonably judgements in the face of difficult situations...what is the assurance the person couldnt do the same to a child or any person he/she disagrees with or angry at.

Lollipops23

it was a crime commited with a knife;therefore it was a knife crime.

having said that,it's still a terrible thing to happen to any family,regardless of class or background.

given that we don't know the story or situation, i think it's unfair to make comments on the people involved. we don't know what is motivation was, or whether he was even in his right mind when he did it.

Screaming Eagle

If you kill people you lose all rights to being nice.

"Sure he was a nice fella and I don't know why he killed those kids" etc

Stark

procure11 wrote: »

This so called person was from a good background so I would assume he/she wasnt under the influence of drugs...

Eh what? Coke's not just a fizzy brown liquid that comes in a red can you know.

procure11 wrote: »

before deciding to take another persons life..I would personally jail the person for life simply because he/she cannot be trusted to exercise reasonably judgements in the face of difficult situations...what is the assurance the person couldnt do the same to a child or any person he/she disagrees with or angry at.

Another problem with the attitude to crime in this country. That being under the influence is somehow a mitigating factor. Unless the perpetrator was force fed alcohol throughout the night, I don't see how it absolves them of responsibility.