Bray incident 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families

Splendour

TirNaNog. wrote: »

the same as the man in USA walked into a gym full of women and riddeled them with a machine gun,and killed himself therefore admitting his guilt.

I don't know anything about that case but I think in the Bray case the fact that the killer stabbed his ex. and her current boyfriend puts a different slant on it. I don't think this guy would have randomly killed people he didn't know.

lostexpectation

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Wasn't ignored by the media but it was glossed over.

where was the gloss?

TirNaNog.

Splendour wrote: »

I don't know anything about that case but I think in the Bray case the fact that the killer stabbed his ex. and her current boyfriend puts a different slant on it. I don't think this guy would have randomly killed people he didn't know.

But the fact the he killed himself afterwards doesnt make it ok,alot of people cant seem to accept that he was evil to do that,and it could have been a pre meditated crime,they are to quick to claim he was mentally ill,after all how could the middle class guy be scum.

Screaming Eagle

Splendour wrote: »

I don't know anything about that case but I think in the Bray case the fact that the killer stabbed his ex. and her current boyfriend puts a different slant on it. I don't think this guy would have randomly killed people he didn't know.

Indeed. Better he killed afew folk he knew

procure11

foxinsox wrote: »

Class has nothing to do with this..

Two young men are dead...

Two other young people are seriously injured..

Nobody other than the people who were in that house on that night know what happened.. The full facts may never become public knowledge.

I'm sure the relatives and friends of both families are absolutley devasted. There are no rules as to how to deal with such a situation, it is a tragedy.

To come out saying scumbag, mentally ill about this young man is totally uncalled for as none of us has any idea what happened that night. I feel that it will be unimaginable for any of the members of either family to deal with these losses.

It is a tragic sad thing to happen regardless of where they are from, what college they were attending and how they were brought up. It could have happened in any class and would still be just as tragic.

My thoughts would be with the poor families of both young men who must be going through such conflicting emotions at the moment.

The Irish Times - Mon 17 August has accurate facts as far as I know.

Hi Fox..

The facts I know so far...is that someone stabbed another person ...and I personally don't give a damn about the reasons why..unless it was in self defence.
I really find your position a bit disingenous ...because if the victims were travellers or immigrants..the sentiments could have been different.You have to remember that in every single murder/accident/rape etc...there are family members,loved ones involved .
This case does not make all the violent acts in this country of late any important or sensitive because they are from good families.I sympathise with the their loved ones and families ...just like I do with all the families of the victims that die from violent acts....but I would not excuse the crime.

Splendour

TirNaNog. wrote: »

But the fact the he killed himself afterwards doesnt make it ok,alot of people cant seem to accept that he was evil to do that,and it could have been a pre meditated crime,they are to quick to claim he was mentally ill,after all how could the middle class guy be scum.

Of course it doesn't make it ok, but in anger we are all capable of doing things we regret. We don't know the state of this guys mind when he commited this crime so we cannot say if he was evil or sick.
I don't think we can compare this guy to lads who go out every weekend with knives looking for trouble.

procure11

Stark wrote: »

Eh what? Coke's not just a fizzy brown liquid that comes in a red can you know.



Another problem with the attitude to crime in this country. That being under the influence is somehow a mitigating factor. Unless the perpetrator was force fed alcohol throughout the night, I don't see how it absolves them of responsibility.

I think you misunderstand me...

I am not in anyway excusing or justifying the behaviour of drug addicts ...but scientifically ...drug use leads to less inhibitions and irrationality and in the court of law they could get away with less sentence .

In this case ...the claim is that these were young,bright folks from good backgrounds ...so I assumed that drugs wouldn't be an excuse.It was a case of crime of passion and this IMOH is becoming an easy excuse for malicious and well planned crimes.

Splendour

Screaming Eagle wrote: »

Indeed. Better he killed afew folk he knew

What I meant was I don't think he went around on a regular basis with a knife.

TirNaNog.

Splendour wrote: »

Of course it doesn't make it ok, but in anger we are all capable of doing things we regret. We don't know the state of this guys mind when he commited this crime so we cannot say if he was evil or sick.
I don't think we can compare this guy to lads who go out every weekend with knives looking for trouble.

Well if he armed himself with a knife and went out on a planned killing spree he is as bad .stop living in denial.

Mike...

Mike... wrote: »

strange how it exists on this thread yet not on the is Mayo a no go area thread?
I am noticing a strong east coast bias on boards lately.

Anyone who stabs and murders someone, and also injures others is a lowlife regardless of location, east or west...

Terry wrote: »

The thread has been re-opened, so you stay quiet too.

Discuss the topic at hand.
Problems with moderation belong in the help desk.

Terry wrote: »

If you get stabby, then you lose the right to protection in AH.
I don't care who you are, who you know, where you are from or what your family is like. If you stab someone, you are a scumbag. Circumstances be damned. You shouldn't have been carrying a knife in the first place.

Isn't your last thread the same as what I said when you warned me with "you stay quiet too."

What gives?

ScumLord

Stark wrote: »

The only way this debate could become even more intellectual is for someone to start using the rolly eyes smiley.

Confab wrote: »

Correct. 86.34% of them don't do it. The remaining 13.66% go on medically sanctioned killing sprees with a bread knife :rolleyes:

Sixth sense. :eek:

procure11 wrote: »

Hi Fox..

The facts I know so far...is that someone stabbed another person ...and I personally don't give a damn about the reasons why..unless it was in self defence.

I'm assuming from the rest of your post that was a don't? If the man had a mental illness that was treatable, we could have done something to cure it before he snapped and killed someone. It always pays to look at what caused the incident so that we can find ways of preventing it in the future. Using a big brush to paint everything the same colour helps no one.

Rud Annamh

Speaking of snobbishness, did you notice that the Irish Times took the trouble to point out the the perpetrator rented rather than owned his home?

Mr Clancy (22), who lived in rented accommodation in Dalkey...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0818/breaking23.htm

Bob_Harris

Being drunk, off your face on drugs, committing a "crime of passion", or being mentally ill doesn't excuse anything, or make him less responsible.

If he had it deep down in him to take a knife to someone, regardless of "state of mind", then he is a scumbag (not the tracksuit wearing kind, but an unsavory person).

procure11

ScumLord wrote: »

Sixth sense. :eek:

I'm assuming from the rest of your post that was a don't? If the man had a mental illness that was treatable, we could have done something to cure it before he snapped and killed someone. It always pays to look at what caused the incident so that we can find ways of preventing it in the future. Using a big brush to paint everything the same colour helps no one.

Another Grammar nazi...

I just think it is abysmal to keep resorting to mental illness defense anytime a crime is not committed by the usual suspects.You of all people should know that most murders are carried out by the mentally ill.

Rud Annamh

The same Irish Times article points out that Mr Clancy hadn't been drinking, brought the knife with him, and waited outside the house until his ex-girlfriend arrived before going in to commit the crime.

After the club, Mr Clancy, who had not been drinking, offered to drive Mr Creane and his two friends to their homes in Bray... Gardaí are exploring if Mr Clancy dropped Mr Creane home, then waited outside the house for Ms Hannigan to arrive before going into the house uninvited and attacking the couple at about 4.30am.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0818/breaking23.htm

kazza90210

I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed, he wasnt a "scumbag" and whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

I know this a public forum and people are intitled to their opinions but not knowing the people and just coming out and saying some of the stuff that has been said here is digusting.

Im not saying it wasnt a crime, but there was alot more behind this and I personally find it very hurtful to see the way some people just want to have a their say no matter how hurtful some people may find it.

procure11

kazza90210 wrote: »

I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed, he wasnt a "scumbag" and whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

I know this a public forum and people are intitled to their opinions but not knowing the people and just coming out and saying some of the stuff that has been said here is digusting.

Im not saying it wasnt a crime, but there was alot more behind this and I personally find it very hurtful to see the way some people just want to have a their say no matter how hurtful some people may find it.

Kazza ...you sound like an insider...but the fact is that nothing excuses taking another persons life....irrespective of the circumstances.Do you think we should argue differently because it wasn't a drug HIT.

foxinsox

procure11 wrote: »

Hi Fox..

The facts I know so far...is that someone stabbed another person ...and I personally do give a damn about the reasons why..unless it was in self defence.
I really find your position a bit disingenous ...because if the victims were travellers or immigrants..the sentiments could have been different.You have to remember that in every single murder/accident/rape etc...there are family members,loved ones involved .
This case does not make all the violent acts in this country of late any important or sensitive because they are from good families.I sympathise with the their loved ones and families ...just like I do with all the families of the victims that die from violent acts....but I would not excuse the crime.

Can i make it 100% clear I did NOT anywhere in my post excuse the crime. If one person kills another person it is a crime, I am in no way saying that it isn't.

If such an incident happened and the victims were members of the travelling community or immigrants (all humans are the same imo) my feelings would be exactly the same, the tragedy being that two young people died and two others were seriously injured.

What I said was that class didn't matter, it is still a tragedy.

What I also said in my original post was that we may never know the facts of what happened that night.

Rabies

People are talking about what they see and hear in the media and voicing their opinions here.

I see no reason for this thread to be closed.

As for the term scumbag, I think its being used more in the line of 'what he did as a scumbag thing to do'. I know not everyone is saying that before someone picks my post apart.

This is people venting and talking about a news item. No different to sitting around the table during lunch hour.

zuroph

kazza90210 wrote: »

I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed, he wasnt a "scumbag" and whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

I know this a public forum and people are intitled to their opinions but not knowing the people and just coming out and saying some of the stuff that has been said here is digusting.

Im not saying it wasnt a crime, but there was alot more behind this and I personally find it very hurtful to see the way some people just want to have a their say no matter how hurtful some people may find it.

He killed someone. Short of it being an accident, or in Self defence, thats a scumbag IMO.

Bob_Harris

kazza90210 wrote: »

I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed, he wasnt a "scumbag" and whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

Unless "what happened before Saturday night" was his life was threatened by all 3 of his victims and he was somehow acting in self defense, it is irrelevant.

kazza90210 wrote: »

Im not saying it wasnt a crime, but there was alot more behind this and I personally find it very hurtful to see the way some people just want to have a their say no matter how hurtful some people may find it.

Hurt and offense are superficial. Get over it.

Rabies

Mike... wrote: »

Isn't your last thread the same as what I said when you warned me with "you stay quiet too."

What gives?

If you question a mod again here I will remove your access.

Do it in the helpdesk or an open forum like feedback

kazza90210

No i dont think it should be treated differently but I do think people should be more careful when going around calling someone a scumbag etc without knowing the facts.

I will admit i would have said the same but the last few days have made me realise just because a horrible crime is committed doesnt mean that person is a scumbag.

kazza90210

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Hurt and offense are superficial. Get over it.

Thanks bob thats real kind of you

Bob_Harris

kazza90210 wrote: »

No i dont think it should be treated differently but I do think people should be more careful when going around calling someone a scumbag etc without knowing the facts.

I will admit i would have said the same but the last few days have made me realise just because a horrible crime is committed doesnt mean that person is a scumbag.

FACT. He took a knife, plunged it into 3 different people, several times in some cases, embedded a knife a a girls back (will she walk again?) and ended the guys life.

Circumstances are pretty irrelevant and I reserve the right to judge him to be scumbag/evil person

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

I suppose on a technical note he wouldn't be a criminal - as he hasn't been charged with any crime, for obvious reasons.

I just think the whole thing is a tragedy. We would all know someone like this lad who gets obsessed with a girl and won't give up the notion. 99.9999% percent of people get over it, but some tiny percent of people just aren't made that way.

He is an absolutely terrible horrible person for doing this, but he is not a scumbag.

procure11

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

I suppose on a technical note he wouldn't be a criminal - as he hasn't been charged with any crime, for obvious reasons.

I just think the whole thing is a tragedy. We would all know someone like this lad who gets obsessed with a girl and won't give up the notion. 99.9999% percent of people get over it, but some tiny percent of people just aren't made that way.

He is an absolutely terrible horrible person for doing this, but he is not a scumbag.

With all due respect...you would have to explain the difference between an absolutely terrible,horrible person and a scumbag?:o...but I think you are right because I would choose the latter over the former tbh.

JACK_the_LAD

Stark wrote: »

**** The guy who committed the act is dead. How exactly is he "getting away with it"?

The Annabel case scumbags got away lightly with murder. But then so too does every other scumbag in this country (such as the New Ross gang mentioned earlier). Ireland is simply soft on crime full stop.

He has escaped a fair trial, a conviction, and the prospects of sharing a Mountjoy cell (sorry he probably wouldn't go to the Joy, as that's far too rough for a young Trinner).

It is a bit disingenious to try and bracket, sanitise, or categorise this killing any differently to those many others comitted in this country. In fact it's an insult to those other bereaved families IMO.

Calling it "a tragedy", "an incident", "a crime of passion" , makes it no less a brutal, bloody, mindless murder. For that is what it is a brutal, bloody, mindless murder.

The real questions we need to address are,

• Why do young men (sorry girls but it's almost exclusively men) feel the need to stick a knife into another person's torso?
• Why cannot some young men cope with betrayal, &/or rejection without the need to sliceup your percieved nemisis? (in my day you got drunk, went home and kicked the dog).
• Why is the merest percieved slight now an excuse for deadly violence? (in my day you rolled-up your sleeves, got even or got a hiding).

Let's stop this nonsense.
Let's stop trying to excuse the inexcusable.
Murder is Murder.
Killing is Killing.
A Knife is a Knife.
Regardless of the neighbourhood.

thebullkf

Mike... wrote: »

Isn't your last thread the same as what I said when you warned me with "you stay quiet too."

What gives?

fair question,i know you question mods privately BUT mike was dismissed
in public.
surely you're allowed to respond in kind-mod or not

thebullkf

Rabies wrote: »

If you question a mod again here I will remove your access.

Do it in the helpdesk or an open forum like feedback

not so fair methinks

or should this be in feedback??

thebullkf

to stay on topic.

R.I.P.
to ALL involved.:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Mikeyt086

The guy who was killed, Seb, was 3 years ahead of me in school. I remember once when i was 8 i think, out on the playground he took a volley which resulted in the ball smashing me in the face. He took me to the nurse and was really apologetic. My only memory of him. The incident took place about 200m from my home aswell. Its scary stuff.

Dudess

ilkhanid wrote: »

I thnk it's simpler than class. This appears to have been a crime of passion (or madness) and people historically tend to have a different attitude to these killings than ones perpetrated-especially premeditated ones-for profit or pleasure. And this is understandable, to a degree.

The point is, a "crime of passion" etc could occur in Finglas (I posted a link earlier on this thread to a stabbing case that was the result of rivalry between a boyfriend and an ex boyfriend which took place in Mahon in Cork - an area with a bad reputation) but the nature of the crime (which is being so focused on in this case) wouldn't matter, it would be seen simply as a typical scumbag act etc.

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

And since when it is a crime to be middle class?

Wo... I'm middle-class and I ain't apologising for it. I've often expressed my objections to reverse snobbery bullsh1t (including from middle-class bleeding hearts) on this forum. What gets my goat though is presumptuous attitudes such as:

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

I don't think they were scumbags as such. I didn't see any tracksuits in any of the pics.

:rolleyes:

JACK_the_LAD wrote: »

There does appear to be a certain inconsistency on these boards I believe.

That's some good trawling for someone who only joined this month.

My belief is, it is simply down to bias. Had this stabbing occured in Finglas, Clondalkin, or Crumlin, comitted by working-class men, then it would be open season.

But this occured in a middle-class area, comitted by a middle-class Trinity undergraduate, so we must be quiet.

This could well be attributable to threats of litigation from these same middle-classes, cos as we know after the Blacrock bootboys/Annabels & Waterloo Road "incidents" these middle-class parents do not like their precious little darlings being discussed.

'Tis all in your head. There are people expressing their upset because they knew the people involved, so the moderators are clamping down heavily. There could be far more rigorous actions - the thread could be closed/deleted. Insensitive comments in relation to a case where people died aren't fair game, no matter where the incident occurred. To assume there wouldn't be such a clampdown on insensitive comments if the incident occurred in Ballymun is just being silly. You should know anyway how outspoken Terry is about bias towards people from middle-class areas.

Especially when some poor soul inconveniently ends up DEAD!

Nice.

JACK_the_LAD wrote: »

this grubby little bannana republic of ours

So Ireland is like Uruguay?

To come out saying scumbag, mentally ill about this young man is totally uncalled for as none of us has any idea what happened that night.

Firstly, yes we do have an idea of what happened that night. Secondly, he stabbed people repeatedly - what's uncalled for about calling him an unflattering name? And I'd have thought suggesting he was mentally ill is a fairly reasonable stance, no?

It could have happened in any class and would still be just as tragic.

It would of course be just as tragic, but the nature of the media coverage would be very different, and attitudes towards it would be very different also. Bet you there would be countless "typical scumbag" comments on this forum if it had happened in West Tallaght. And far fewer cries for sensitivity.

kazza90210 wrote: »

I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed

It's a current event - we are entitled to discuss it, so long as we don't cross the line, and that's what the moderators are on duty for.

whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

Look, he stabbed people - I think people have enough to make up their minds on with that alone.

kazza90210 wrote: »

No i dont think it should be treated differently but I do think people should be more careful when going around calling someone a scumbag etc without knowing the facts.

Could you please stop saying that? We don't know all the facts, but we certainly know enough.

I will admit i would have said the same but the last few days have made me realise just because a horrible crime is committed doesnt mean that person is a scumbag.

You're in a position of bias - you wouldn't have an issue with such a discussion if it didn't affect you personally. It's unfair of you to impose that on us and to expect a thread on a national message-board be closed just because of how you feel - you're not the censor. All you have to do is stop reading this thread.

procure11 wrote: »

With all due respect...you would have to explain the difference between an absolutely terrible,horrible person and a scumbag?:o

Yeah, I just see them as the same thing.

Chucky the tree

The chap was a grade A scummer, I can't see how people can have any doubts.

lostexpectation

Rabies wrote: »

People are talking about what they see and hear in the media and voicing their opinions here.

I see no reason for this thread to be closed.

As for the term scumbag, I think its being used more in the line of 'what he did as a scumbag thing to do'. I know not everyone is saying that before someone picks my post apart.

This is people venting and talking about a news item. No different to sitting around the table during lunch hour.

the difference is we're 'publishing' although i wish we could just chat on the net without 'publishing'... but hey we're different then a national radio dj , who usually talks about your favourite childhood sweets expounding a bizarre view on murder in a wistful sing song voice.

he had to qualify that he didn't find it understandable...

Sharpshooter

thebullkf wrote: »

not so fair methinks

or should this be in feedback??

To answer your question.

As has been said, if you have a query or a question about a thread or a Moderator you can take it to feedback.

lostexpectation

advice to families and friends involved don't read the media or net for the next week, (get a lawyer to monitor it if need be) and if you are reading it, why?

DigiGal

To quote some bloke on Joe Duffy

A knife is a knife in Darndale and still a knife in Foxrock...

thebullkf

Sharpshooter wrote: »

To answer your question.

As has been said, if you have a query or a question about a thread or a Moderator you can take it to feedback.

fair enough, just to ask why these people weren't PM'd?
criticised "en forum" and when they replied "en forum" they were warned
about doing so.

just sayin is all.
point taken-i'll keep schtum .;)

thebullkf

lostexpectation wrote: »

advice to families and friends involved don't read the media or net for the next week, (get a lawyer to monitor it if need be) and if you are reading it, why?

????.
its front page everywhere....all media outlets....
how do they avoid it??
Media have a large role to play.

kazza90210

You cant avoid it, its on the tv, radio, internet everywhere you go people are talking about it. Today driving to work stopped at lights and the guy selling the herald stops and stands right in front of my car!!! but what can you do i know i shouldnt read this thread but in a way i felt that i might be able to get people to see an other side, which is clearly not working.

Dudess

What other side? He had the knife in his hand and he did the stabbings. He may have seemed a lovely guy up to a few minutes before he decided to carry out this act, he may have been messed up emotionally, but that's irrelevant now. Several lives are destroyed because of his act.

Sharpshooter

thebullkf wrote: »

fair enough, just to ask why these people weren't PM'd?
criticised "en forum" and when they replied "en forum" they were warned
about doing so.

just sayin is all.
point taken-i'll keep schtum .;)

And I was trying to help you when I suggested Feedback.:)

genericguy

couldn't give a shyte where he was from, or what his reasons for knifing those people where, he was a fcuking scummer to do what he did - stabbing someone for an apple, a tenner, or a girl all amount to murder, regardless of whether your clothes were made by some 3 year old in taiwan or louis copeland.

and, to top it off, he kills himself to avoid dealing with the consequences. selfish, selfish cnut.

ShooterSF

This is an interesting one. I understand some of the class claims but murder suicide in itself is a strange topic. Unlike most crimes we never get to see or here from the perpetrator so one is left to wonder what their mental state was. Don't get me wrong what the chap did was heinous and unforgivable, the act of a scumbag. However and this goes for any class in murder suicides I always wonder was this person who they were or a sick twisted version of themselves due to mental issues?
For any wrestling fan (even some casual ones might know this), growing up I idolised a guy by the name of Chris Benoit. I had posters by my weight set and even cried when he won a fictional scripted fight (I was 20 at the time!). I read so much about the guy outside of the tv show. He was the honest, hard working, very quiet type who you could seemingly trust with anything and was adored by a locker room. I respected the man himself, then he snapped one even and murdered his wife and kid before killing himself. People who knew him claimed he had become paranoid and very reclusive beforehand.

Lons story short two camps tend to form around these situations and I can see both's points. One is that the person's final acts are so evil and wrong that they deserve no better than to be considered a murdering no good scumbag. On the other side people claim that 99% of the person's life was lived as a good human being (I don't know the guy in this case so that's a generalisation), they became mentally disturbed and the person these people knew and cared for died then before the wreck they had become.
I dunno whether I find the second more comforting or if it holds any truth. I fear I can't disengage and look at the issue objectively (Something those that know the chap should be aware of when reading the discussion).

Stark

DigiGal wrote: »

To quote some bloke on Joe Duffy

A knife is a knife in Darndale and still a knife in Foxrock...

The use their knives to cut steak in Foxrock though.

They can run someone over in their Chelsea tractors if they feel like killing someone

thebullkf

genericguy wrote: »

couldn't give a shyte where he was from, or what his reasons for knifing those people where, he was a fcuking scummer to do what he did - stabbing someone for an apple, a tenner, or a girl all amount to murder, regardless of whether your clothes were made by some 3 year old in taiwan or louis copeland.

and, to top it off, he kills himself to avoid dealing with the consequences. selfish, selfish cnut.

not a rational thinking man i'd guess,
so rational rules don't apply.(to him)
is it a societal health problem
just seems theres more and more ,crime,ASB,rape,murder today....or was it always like this and only being reported more these days

whatever the reson-we as a whole have a lot to answer for.
not to go off topic,but i feel its relevant...

what is wrong with people in Ireland -when the LEADING cause of death of young males aged between 19-55 is suicide???

SV

The only facts I have are...Some guy killed 2 others and then killed himself?


sounds pretty scummy to me.
Don't really care what the 'circumstances' are.

genericguy

thebullkf wrote: »

not a rational thinking man i'd guess,
so rational rules don't apply.(to him)
is it a societal health problem
just seems theres more and more ,crime,ASB,rape,murder today....or was it always like this and only being reported more these days

whatever the reson-we as a whole have a lot to answer for.
not to go off topic,but i feel its relevant...

what is wrong with people in Ireland -when the LEADING cause of death of young males aged between 19-55 is suicide???

and what, may i ask, did you find irrational about my post?

thebullkf

SV wrote: »

The only facts I have are...Some guy killed 2 others and then killed himself?


sounds pretty scummy to me.
Don't really care what the 'circumstances' are.

maybe thats part of the problem.