IPTDA Meeting - Irish Poker Tournament Directors Association

carfax

Hi All,

We're going to use the main forum to get as much input from players as possible on this one, as the more we can discuss here the easier it will be to get through everything on the day.

We are going to be very strict on numbers for this meeting (takes place in September in the Voodoo Card Club - contact stephen(at)pokerireland.ie if you are a tournament organiser/ card room manager and want to get on the list).

We are going to work towards giving a definitive outline to all tournament organsiers on how tournament rules should be implemented in Ireland. Of course different organisers can choose to endorse these rules or not but it is the interest of us all to get some uniformity and general outlines for the game in Eire.


Items for the agenda;

1) Moving a player from 1 table to another.

2) String betting has to be sorted out once and for all.

3) All-in hands being mucked.

4) People saying "call" when intending to call the bb and being told they're facing a raise or an all-in. Rules vary here from place to place.

5) Mis-deals.

6) Min raise amounts (American system V the Irish system)

7) When does a player have to be in his seat for his hand to be live.

8) Player flashing card/cards intentionally/un-intentionally.

9) When a player moves all-in, should his stack be counted automatically?

10) Speechplay/Announcing your hand.

11) Standard penalties for abusive language/slowrolling etc.


Any other suggestions for items on the agenda? Below are the standard TDA rules, which if implemented properly in all card rooms already offer a lot of uniformity. What we are trying to do is to first of all publicise the obvious need for this and secondly to help new & old tournament organisers to implement rules in the same way and to the same standards.

_______

General Concepts
1. Floor People
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson's decision is final.

2. Official Language
The English-only rule will be enforced in the United States during the play of hands. English will be used in international play along with the local or native language.

3. Communication
Players may not talk on the phone while at the poker table. House rules apply to all other forms of electronic devices.

Seating Players; Breaking & Balancing Tables
4. Random Seats
Tournament and satellite seats will be randomly assigned. Accommodations for players with special physical needs will be made when possible.

5. Breaking Tables
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

6. Balancing Tables
In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. The table from which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. In stud-only games, players will be moved by position (the last seat to open up at the short table is the seat to be filled). Play will halt on any table that is three or more players short.

7. Number of Players at Final Table
In flop games, the final table will consist of ten (10) players. In stud-type games, the final table will consist of nine (9) players.

Pots / Showdown
8. Declarations
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

9. Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

10. Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

11. Showdown
At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud games, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.

12. Odd Chips
The odd chip will go to the high hand. In flop games when there are two or more high hands or two or more low hands, the odd chip(s) will go to the left of the button. In stud games, the odd chip will go to the high card by suit. However, when hands have identical value (e.g., a wheel in Omaha/8) the pot will be split as evenly as possible.

13. Side Pots
Each side pot will be split separately.

14. Playing the Board
A player must show both cards when playing the board in order to get part of the pot.

15. Disputed Pots
The right to dispute a hand ends when a new hand begins. (See rule #18.)

General Procedures
16. Chip Race
When it is time to color-up chips, they will be raced off with a maximum of one chip going to any player. The chip race will always start in the No.1 seat. A player cannot be raced out of a tournament: a player who loses his or her remaining chip(s) in a chip race will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play. Players are encouraged to witness the chip race.

17. Deck Changes
Deck changes will be on the dealer push or level changes or as prescribed by the house. Players may not ask for deck changes.

18. New Limits
When time has elapsed in a round and a new level is announced by a member of the tournament staff, the new level applies to the next hand. A hand begins with the first riffle. If an automatic shuffler is being used, the hand begins when the green button is pushed.

19. Re-buys
A player may not miss a hand. If a player announces the intent to rebuy before a new hand, that player is playing chips behind and is obligated to make the re-buy.

20. Calling for a Clock
Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given a maximum of one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken before time expires, there will be a 10-second countdown. If a player has not acted by the time the countdown is over, the player's hand will be dead.

21. Rabbit Hunting
No rabbit hunting is allowed. Rabbit hunting is revealing any of the cards “that would have come” if the hand had not ended.

Player Present / Eligible for Hand
22. At Your Seat
A player must be at his or her seat by the time all players have been dealt complete initial hands in order to have a live hand. A player must be at his/her seat to call time.

23. Action Pending
A player must remain at the table if he has a live hand.

Button / Blinds
24. Dead Button
Tournament play will use a dead button.

25. Dodging Blinds
A player who intentionally dodges any blind when moving from a broken table will incur a penalty.

26. Button in Heads-up
In heads-up play, the small blind is on the button and acts first. When beginning heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player takes the big blind twice in a row.

Dealing Errors
27. Misdeals
In stud-type games, if any of the player's two down cards are exposed due to dealer error it is a misdeal. In flop games, exposure of one of the first two cards dealt is a misdeal. Players may be dealt two consecutive cards on the button.

28. Four-Card Flop
If the flop contains four (rather than three) cards, whether exposed or not, the dealer shall scramble the 4 cards face down. A floorperson will be called to randomly select one card to be used as the next burn card and the remaining three cards will become the flop.

Play: Bets & Raises
29. Verbal Declarations / Acting in Turn
Verbal declarations in turn are binding.* Players are required to act in turn.* Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.* A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.

30. Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear.

31. Raises
A raise must be at least the size of the previous raise. If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

32. Oversized Chip
A single oversized chip will be considered a call if the player does not announce a raise. If a player puts an oversized chip into the pot and states raise but does not state the amount, the raise will be the maximum allowable up to the size of that chip. After the flop, an initial bet of an oversized chip without comment will constitute the size of the bet. To make a raise with a single oversized chip, a verbal declaration must be made before the chip hits the table surface.

33. Multiple Chips
Unless a raise has been declared, placing multiple chips in the pot that add to less than double the bet one is facing will be deemed a call if removal of any one chip leaves less than the bet the player could have called.

34. Number of Raises
There is no cap on the number of raises in no-limit games. In limit events there will be a limit to raises even when heads-up until the tournament is down to two players; the house limit will apply.

35. Pot Size
Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

36. String Bets and Raises
Dealers will be responsible for calling string bets and raises.

Play: Other
37. Chips on the Table
Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times.

38. Chips in Transit
Players may not hold or transport tournament chips in any manner that takes them out of view. A player who does so will forfeit the chips and will face disqualification. The forfeited chips will be taken out of play.

39. Unprotected Hands
If a dealer kills an unprotected hand, the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.

Etiquette & Penalties
40. Penalties and Disqualification
A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of soft play, abuse, or disruptive behavior. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings and “missed hand” penalties. Except for a one-hand penalty, missed hand penalties will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. For the period of the penalty, the offender shall remain away from the table but will continue to be dealt in.

Tournament staff can assess a one-hand penalty, one-, two-, three-, or four-round penalties or disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his or her chips removed from play. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties.

41. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

42. Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

43. Ethical Play
Poker is an individual game. Soft play will result in penalties, which may include forfeiture of chips and/or disqualification. Chip dumping and/or all other forms of collusion will result in disqualification.

44. Etiquette Violations
Repeated etiquette violations will result in penalties. Examples include, but are not limited to, unnecessarily touching other players’ cards or chips, delay of the game, repeatedly acting out of turn*or excessive chatter.

carfax

Wow, I really thought we would get more feedback than this today. :rolleyes:

Laxie

It would be brilliant if there were a uniform set of rules, but you know yourself...'this is our house, so our rules' mentality will take over in the end at a good many places.

Whatever comes of this, it would be good from a player point of view if a list of directors/card rooms were put together to show us who has taken on board the uniform list mentioned above.

As for the rest, my brain is too tired to get around it this afternoon. Will have a better read tomorrow.

big_iain

looks good Stephen.

should be a good meeting.

phantom_lord

best of luck with it.

pgodkin

Here's two rules i want u to look at although they may be totally stupid rules although they are both used in the 1 tournment run in a casino in wexford

Rule 1.

The lines on a poker table:

i always hold my cards in my hand, sometime my hand maybe hangin over the line, dealer said because my cards are past the line, even though there in my hand, my hands dead. have u heard of this???


Rule 2.

Bet/Call on the river:

Someone makes a bet on the river and i call. the other player shows his hand and it is good i go to muck my hand and the dealer turns it over. No one has asked to see the hand?


thanks for this

NewApproach

pgodkin wrote: »

Here's two rules i want u to look at although they may be totally stupid rules although they are both used in the 1 tournment run in a casino in wexford

Rule 1.

The lines on a poker table:

i always hold my cards in my hand, sometime my hand maybe hangin over the line, dealer said because my cards are past the line, even though there in my hand, my hands dead. have u heard of this???


Rule 2.

Bet/Call on the river:

Someone makes a bet on the river and i call. the other player shows his hand and it is good i go to muck my hand and the dealer turns it over. No one has asked to see the hand?


thanks for this

Im no TD but:

1. I thought it's a chip line not a card line.

2. Dealer has no business turning over your hand.

MrPillowTalk

Dont go banning speechplay whatever youse do.

pgodkin

NewApproach wrote: »

Im no TD but:

1. I thought it's a chip line not a card line.

2. Dealer has no business turning over your hand.

Yeah i know but the second one was done in a club in dublin aswell once and he explain it that both hands have to be shown to determine the winner????

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Dont go banning speechplay whatever youse do.

+1 i love it!!:D

carfax

Laxie wrote: »

It would be brilliant if there were a uniform set of rules, but you know yourself...'this is our house, so our rules' mentality will take over in the end at a good many places.

Whatever comes of this, it would be good from a player point of view if a list of directors/card rooms were put together to show us who has taken on board the uniform list mentioned above.

As for the rest, my brain is too tired to get around it this afternoon. Will have a better read tomorrow.

The highlighted part is an excellent point and we will definitely do that.

On the first part of your post I'm amazed at the amount of people that have said that so far. I suppose I'm the eternal optimist and it is always best to be skeptical but the only way some clubs (most will attend this meeting and adopt the results I hope) take on board what we are trying to do is if their players ask/encourage/berate them until they do.

If we all get together and say to our local/regular club/organiser that this is something that is important and has been annoying lots and lots of players for years (travelling to or trying out a new club and finding the most ridiculous interpretation of certain rules) then we will eventually get the vast majority on board with it.

Cheers,
Stephen.

Mellor

carfax wrote: »

al outlines for the game in Eire.
1) Moving a player from 1 table to another.
Player next in the BB (ie worse seat at the minute) moves to new table and is put in the worst available seat, ie closest the BB
2) String betting has to be sorted out once and for all.
Vegas model with some dealer common sense

3) All-in hands being mucked.
don't let it happen
4) People saying "call" when intending to call the bb and being told they're facing a raise or an all-in. Rules vary here from place to place.
tough ****, pay attention
5) Mis-deals.
first round re-deal, second (or later round) first burn system
6) Min raise amounts (American system V the Irish system)
Use the online system, its the most widely used by far. Raise has to be equal to the last raise. 600-1200-1800, or 600-1600, then next must be 2600 or more
7) When does a player have to be in his seat for his hand to be live.
last card is easier to police by the dealer, deal cards out take in dead

9) When a player moves all-in, should his stack be counted automatically?
No. It slows the game
10) Speechplay/Announcing your hand.
differentiate between the two. speechplay is fine, announcing your specific hand isn't
11) Standard penalties for abusive language/slowrolling etc.
language is a tricky one, the WSOP are far too strict on cursing. Slowrollers get one testicle removed per occurance

My 2c

Kimsang

The issue of acting out of turn definitely needs to be addressed.

It's the one ruling I've never had ruled the same twice *when i was involved* (not rulings i've made :P)

My 2c, any action our of turn should stand, unless action changes before the act. I.e. a raise. Calling and folding doesn't constitute action.


Also think conditional bets should be addressed. "If you bet I will move all in" player A bets, should player B be forced to move all in.

Again my 2c on the matter is that it's speech play, part of the game and shouldn't be forced to move all in.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Just have to say thanks to Crafax for getting this in motion

Neill

dream.

As a starting point if all tournaments that qualify for ranking points followed the same set of rules , then other games would prob follow on as players insisted on uniform rulings or vote with their feet .


Question on the showdown

;river comes player 7 bets 2k player 8 raises to 4k player 7 calls ; player 8 says top 2 pair and turns them player 7 flashes an A and mucks . player 8 says he wants to see the other card (aware of bringing them back live) house rule says he not required to do so .
If this is not a showdown what is? and what s is good practise here ?

bigbadpat

Laxie wrote: »

It would be brilliant if there were a uniform set of rules...................................................

Whatever comes of this, it would be good from a player point of view if a list of directors/card rooms were put together to show us who has taken on board the uniform list mentioned above.

I agree with the above.

There are a number of well known slow players who continually slow up the game. I would like to see a Dealer Clock introduced which The DEALER would press after 20 sec which would give the player THREE minutes to act with a Ring tone warning for one minute to go and for 10 seconds to go.

I would like to see more transparancy in the running of tournaments and in the reporting of the results in terms of number of runners, prize pool, final table & who got what - similar to what the Eglington in Galway does via their web site.

I am surprised at the lack of feedback on this thread.
It might improve the feedback if the Mods would allow a link to this thread under the Poker / Real Word Tournaments & Events section

MrPillowTalk

Kimsang wrote: »

The issue of acting out of turn definitely needs to be addressed.

It's the one ruling I've never had ruled the same twice *when i was involved* (not rulings i've made :P)

My 2c, any action our of turn should stand, unless action changes before the act. I.e. a raise. Calling and folding doesn't constitute action.


Also think conditional bets should be addressed. "If you bet I will move all in" player A bets, should player B be forced to move all in.
Again my 2c on the matter is that it's speech play, part of the game and shouldn't be forced to move all in.

Imo verbal declarations should only be binding if the action is actually on the player, like in that example Player B would be allowed to fold.