Do you believe in God?

mewso

Jakkass wrote: »

I find it impossible that someone could refer to Jesus as "great and inspirational" if one didn't believe what He said to be truth.

To say you are the Son of God, and that you can forgive sins, and to claim that you can perform miracles is truly something else, and it certainly has the potential to irritate people.

He related to people on the ground, and He inspired people to live for God rather than for themselves, and to have faith, and to serve ones neighbour. However, to get to that point He had to offend a lot of people. He gave the Pharisees some home truths, even referring to them as the children of Satan according to one of the Gospels. He told people that Hell was a reality, and that one would be held accountable at the end of time for every word that came out of their mouths.

I find this claim that Jesus could be "great and inspirational" while saying some of the things He said to be nonsensical for a non-believer.

There are great and inspirational people throughout our lives and in every generation. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I personally would doubt he considered or claimed himself to be the Son of God but it would make prefect sense to me if his followers exaggerated the man and his deeds somewhat. So I said "if" he claimed to the Son of God then I would question his sanity but I, like most human beings, agree with a lot of the positive things he preached. "Love your neighbour" is such an old and pre-Jesus idea that it only adds weight to the idea that his followers were pinning the best ideas around to the man they loved. Some of the stuff he said can be quite jarring and contradictory yet again adding weight in my eyes to ordinary men letting their own prejudices affect their writing as they built their own ideal of him word by word.

bill_ashmount

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, religion has been used as a tool for corruption in times past, atheism has also been used as a tool for corruption, as have other ideologies in the past. But "used" is the key word here. Manipulated. It isn't actually religion itself in the vast majority of cases.

I agree 100%. You say "as have other ideologies in the past"

All these other ideologies you speak of are from the minds of man (I think you would agree?), as is religion from the minds of man (IMO). They are all open to corruption, man made the rules, man imposes the rules.

enniscorthy

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I believe in Paul McGrath

how many people have been killed, how much land has been stollen in the name of Paul McGrath?

sounds like the best God to me.

ooh ahh paul mcgrath ooh ahh paul mcgrath
ooh ahh paul mcgrath ooh ahh paul mcgrath
ooh ahh cantona ooh ahh cantona
ooh ahh daily star ooh ahh daily star
ooh ahh up the rah ooh ahh up the rah
heyyyyyyyy hey baby OOOHH AHHhh heheheheh

mewso

Jakkass wrote: »

atheism has also been used as a tool for corruption

Love to hear some examples of this. If you are going to cite Hitler or something I would beg to differ. Atheism is simply an absence of a belief in God. It is not a religious movement that can be used to hold sway over people. Hitler did not say I don't believe in God therefore I will kill 6 million jews and I am signing you all up to the altar of Atheism and this will free your minds to assist in the killing.

I think one of the worst examples these days of religion doing evil imo is in South Africa. I know you are not associated with the Catholic church but it serves as a very modern example of religious belief having a very real and final influence on people's lives. These are not corrupt men. The Pope presumably thinks this is the way to save lives in Africa despite all evidence to the contrary so this is delusion and dangerous delusion at that.

brummytom

AthAnRi wrote: »

Just out of interest, would you say that the Man who dreamed up the Big Bang Theory was retarded?

As a very intellegent, and very intersting Priest once said to me "I don't think there is a God I know there is one". I also believe in our Lord and Savious Jesus Christ I just wish I could A) know more about him and be more like him.

The man who 'dreamt up' the Big Bang theory was Georges Lemaître, a Roman Catholic priest.

Forgive my ignorance, but Science and Religion can go hand in hand can't they?

Handsome Bob

Larkin501 wrote: »

I don't believe in God and I think anybody who does is retarded.

(couldn't care less if I get banned for that, just voicing an opinion) :mad:

You won't get banned for that, not in this forum any way.

The_Minister wrote: »

I don't believe in God, but I don't dislike those who do, and I don't consider them intellectually inferior to me.

100% agreed.

Seriously mods, can't you just do a mega merge of all these religious threads that crop up in AH? You could call it the "Official ****e Talking about Religion Thread".

Salvelinus

Bit of a bad poll, you didn't name any gods?

georgieporgy

I believe in God and always have ever since I was kid. never had a problem accepting church teachings, moral guidance, etc. Catholic. love the pope and have no issues with his pronouncments. I find it helpful to source them from accurate sources rather than making do with soundbites in the secular media.

I've spent an hour reading the whole thread and for a religious discussion I must say it's progressing as well as can be expected! I don't intend getting into the debate- just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jakkass is doing a great job. Very well read for such a young man and obviously a happy christian.

brummytom

mewso wrote: »

I think one of the worst examples these days of religion doing evil imo is in South Africa. I know you are not associated with the Catholic church but it serves as a very modern example of religious belief having a very real and final influence on people's lives. These are not corrupt men. The Pope presumably thinks this is the way to save lives in Africa despite all evidence to the contrary so this is delusion and dangerous delusion at that.

Surely increased promiscuity is equally to blame for the rise in HIV/AIDs? Condoms (and all contraception as a whole) seeks only to further encourage such acts.
Obviously the Church's stance on condoms not being used is just as relevant - but isn't targetting the actual root of the problem rather than just one prevention of it more productive?

Besides, condoms have a 10-18% pregnancy rate. (http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/2219.html and http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Archive/PreventionSexual/Q8978.html) If semen can pass through, I'm sure viruses can too.

An Fear Aniar

It makes me laugh that the title of the thread is "Do you believe in God?" yet most of the arguments are off-topic - all about the seen rather than the unseen.

.

Trail_Blazer

Moojuice wrote: »

No. Definitely not the classic Judeo-christian concept. As a entity that is the sum total of human conciousness? Maybe.

This.

I don't believe in an old man sitting in the sky, playing with his ant farm.

philologos

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

like in Nigeria? where the church promotes child abuse/murder, if a death occurs in the family and they do not know the cause usually the youngest child is blamed and called a witch. they are outted from the family, if they do not leave, the other villagers will kill them. they can cure the child tho, with the help of the catholic church and a very large payment of money. but, the treatment isnt guaranteed, and there are no refunds!

I could go through and condemn every abuse of religion one by one. However, I don't feel this reflects the truth of Jesus' teaching in any shape or form, and I will outright condemn any abuse of the Gospel for personal causes.

It is about us trying to get to the truth of what the Gospel encourages for Christians, and trying to establish what it is best for the Christian community to do.

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I can't think of any.

Christianity, Islam, Judasim etc are responsible for millions of deaths, denial of rights for women, gays etc. Torture and rape of millions etc.

I've no doubt some individual people have found solace in these religions but that doesn't take away the fact of all the wrong-doings. They are man made and therefore open to the worst excesses of mankind. Luckily Ireland is starting to get away from it's grip.

I'm afraid your are being obtuse then. Ignoring how faith has been beneficial in individuals lives. Look, it's fine to pick whatever evidence you want to hear, but if we want to see the truth we have to be willing to consider how faith has changed peoples lives for the better, as well as how people have abused religion for bad aims, and see realistically whether or not religion can be a good force in peoples lives.

It's this ignoring of people of faith that gives people a skewed viewpoint about what faith means.

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I agree 100%. You say "as have other ideologies in the past"

All these other ideologies you speak of are from the minds of man (I think you would agree?), as is religion from the minds of man (IMO). They are all open to corruption, man made the rules, man imposes the rules.

I disagree with you that religion is from man. Religion is abused by man to do horrible acts, it does not mean that religion is causing these acts but that it is abused. I believe Judeo-Christianity serves for the benefit of society.

mewso wrote: »

Love to hear some examples of this. If you are going to cite Hitler or something I would beg to differ. Atheism is simply an absence of a belief in God. It is not a religious movement that can be used to hold sway over people. Hitler did not say I don't believe in God therefore I will kill 6 million jews and I am signing you all up to the altar of Atheism and this will free your minds to assist in the killing.

I think one of the worst examples these days of religion doing evil imo is in South Africa. I know you are not associated with the Catholic church but it serves as a very modern example of religious belief having a very real and final influence on people's lives. These are not corrupt men. The Pope presumably thinks this is the way to save lives in Africa despite all evidence to the contrary so this is delusion and dangerous delusion at that.

100,000,000 people died under state atheist regimes in the 20th century worldwide. I don't think one can even account that many losing their lives even under the greatest corruptions of religion. The abuse of atheism is just as dangerous. Leaders who contributed to this are Stalin, Pol Pot, Hoxha and others.

As for the Catholic Church, as a non-Catholic the evidence seems to be that condoms are not as effective in protecting against HIV / AIDS as originally taught. There needs to be moral teaching about monogamy to ones partner as well as anything else. There is also the risk of condoms failing.

Read this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/mar/18/aids-pope-africa-condoms

Benhonan

brummytom wrote: »

Surely increased promiscuity is equally to blame for the rise in HIV/AIDs? Condoms (and all contraception as a whole) seeks only to further encourage such acts.
Obviously the Church's stance on condoms not being used is just as relevant - but isn't targetting the actual root of the problem rather than just one prevention of it more productive?

Besides, condoms have a 10-18% pregnancy rate. (http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/2219.html and http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Archive/PreventionSexual/Q8978.html) If semen can pass through, I'm sure viruses can too.

I think this is the first time a post has made me feel physically sick. Give me Jakkass and his eloquent, well-argued drivel any day, this is just awful...

brummytom

Benhonan wrote: »

I think this is the first time a post has made me feel physically sick. Give me Jakkass and his eloquent, well-argued drivel any day, this is just awful...

Apologies, I'm a 15 year old boy - I'm not going to be the most articulate on this board.

My uncle runs a charity based in the Transkei region of South Africa. It's a Catholic organisation so promotes abstinence rather than contraception; it's something I feel quite passionate about so I did write that post as more of a rant than a real argument.

We

Jakkass wrote: »

What about religions that have caused profound joy and profound change in peoples lives?

I find with these arguments people like to have their cake and eat it too. They like to entertain one possibility, and reject another which is just as true.

Yes, religion has been used as a tool for corruption in times past, atheism has also been used as a tool for corruption, as have other ideologies in the past. But "used" is the key word here. Manipulated. It isn't actually religion itself in the vast majority of cases.

Religion is a poison that has, and will continue to play its part in the all attrocities commited on this planet, whether it be the persecution of homosexuals, the condemnation of contraceptives in aids riddled Africa, which hunts in Gambia, genocide in Rwanda, the Inquisitions, the endless murders and rapings in the name of Islam and Sharia Law, the immense number of people who are willing to mindlessly accept bullshit without evidence will be led to destory themselves, and others around them.

IMHO, until the religions of the world can somehow reimburse their tragic impact by saving lives to the point where they are breakeven on the amount they have killed/saved, there is no argument for religion being a cause of good..

Owwmykneecap

georgieporgy wrote: »

I believe in God and always have ever since I was kid. never had a problem accepting church teachings, moral guidance, etc. Catholic. love the pope and have no issues with his pronouncments. I find it helpful to source them from accurate sources rather than making do with soundbites in the secular media.

I've spent an hour reading the whole thread and for a religious discussion I must say it's progressing as well as can be expected! I don't intend getting into the debate- just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jakkass is doing a great job. Very well read for such a young man and obviously a happy christian.

Do you hate fags?

Or do you only like the nicer part of the bibble? you know towards the end?
How do you reconcile Angry Jew God with Happy Days! new testament god.

And don't you think indoctrinating children before they have the ability to think rationally and question, is at best a tad unfair, or downright cowardly?

Benhonan

brummytom wrote: »

Apologies, I'm a 15 year old boy - I'm not going to be the most articulate on this board.

My uncle runs a charity based in the Transkei region of South Africa. It's a Catholic organisation so promotes abstinence rather than contraception; it's something I feel quite passionate about so I did write that post as more of a rant than a real argument.

OK, well if you're a 15 year old boy then maybe you'll be fine. You're probably just a late bloomer, but you have a lot to learn about sexuality kid. Contrary to religious belief, it's a natural and human act. You won't go to hell, and you shouldn't subscribe to the guilt that the church would have you feel about, because that is where their power comes from. There's a lot of injustice that needs to be tackled in this world, and in the greater scheme of things, having sex is way down the list.

Salvelinus

We wrote: »

Religion is a poison that has, and will continue to play its part in the all attrocities commited on this planet, whether it be the persecution of homosexuals, the condemnation of contraceptives in aids riddled Africa, which hunts in Gambia, genocide in Rwanda, the Inquisitions, the endless murders and rapings in the name of Islam and Sharia Law, the immense number of people who are willing to mindlessly accept bullshit without evidence will be led to destory themselves, and others around them.

IMHO, until the religions of the world can somehow reimburse their tragic impact by saving lives to the point where they are breakeven on the amount they have killed/saved, there is no argument for religion being a cause of good..

That's a bit harsh, I think the problem is the status religion is given. Being religous is seen as a positive thing in alot of places, the more religous you are the more respect, exemption from criticism etc you get
To be seen in a positive light or get the respect of others people will claim to be religous and hide behind it for their own ends. I think it was Arthur C Clarke who said somethig like "the biggest tragedy in history was religion laying a claim over morality".

Salvelinus

brummytom wrote: »

Apologies, I'm a 15 year old boy - I'm not going to be the most articulate on this board.

My uncle runs a charity based in the Transkei region of South Africa. It's a Catholic organisation so promotes abstinence rather than contraception; it's something I feel quite passionate about so I did write that post as more of a rant than a real argument.

If it promotes abstinence only over encouraging abstinence but making people aware of contraception that can be a disaster waiting to happen. the sooner an organisation run by celibate, unwed men realise people are hard wired to breed the better.

aDeener

i used not to believe in Bod but after the 6 nations i must say i was converted

brummytom

Salvelinus wrote: »

If it promotes abstinence only over encouraging abstinence but making people aware of contraception that can be a disaster waiting to happen. the sooner an organisation run by celibate, unwed men realise people are hard wired to breed the better.

I understand you're referring to the Church; but my uncle is married and has two children, he's just a normal person with a strong faith, not a priest.
The Charity runs workshops in South Africa teaching on the benefits of abstinence (not just religion-based, but the advantages to health aswell).

UsWe

I saw an interesting film the other day Religilious, worth a watch in my opinion, which is one which wouldn’t have much time for discussions of religion (why did I click on this thread:o). I can understand why a person would want to believe in religion though, almost like a security blanket.

philologos

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Do you hate fags?

I wouldn't refer to them as "fags" but homosexuals. Secondly, homosexuals are people who are a part of God's creation just like the rest of us are and are deserving of as much respect as any other human individual on this earth. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). I am just as guilty as anyone else when accused before God.

Saying that you find a particular action detestable is different from saying that you find the person doing that action is detestable. All sin is detestable, and all sin separates us from God.

In Christianity it is only homosexual acts (i.e sexual relations between two of the same gender) which is forbidden. In fact every sexual act that falls outside of a marriage is considered to be sinful.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Or do you only like the nicer part of the bibble? you know towards the end?
How do you reconcile Angry Jew God with Happy Days! new testament god.

God is the same since the beginning, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all in existence from the beginning of time.

God is not "nice". He is an awesome God, a God of power and strength, a God who defends the weak, and accuses the strong of their sin. He is a God who offers us all salvation, if we are willing to trust Him, and walk according to His statutes which He revealed to us through the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostles.

All of it is one continuous revelation. Infact the vast majority of Jesus' teachings in the New Testament are originally sourced from Judaism. Jesus fulfilled the role as the Jewish messiah, and a light to the Gentiles. Hence why we have Christianity.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

And don't you think indoctrinating children before they have the ability to think rationally and question, is at best a tad unfair, or downright cowardly?

What if I am thinking rationally? I would want any hypothetical children of mine to come to faith in Jesus and know they God, out of compassion for them. I would want for them to live life fully.

This isn't indoctrination, it's teaching for life and yes, I am completely unapologetic about this. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

Salvelinus

brummytom wrote: »

I understand you're referring to the Church; but my uncle is married and has two children, he's just a normal person with a strong faith, not a priest.
The Charity runs workshops in South Africa teaching on the benefits of abstinence (not just religion-based, but the advantages to health aswell).

Like I said if they are just telling people not to have sex full stop then that can have adverse implications. I heard on the radio about a practice called ABC. Stands for something like; Abstain, if you can't abstain Be faithful and if you can't be faithful then use Contraception. I think an issue in Africa is in some regions the men work away from home for long periods of time and can turn to prostitutes.
This way you educate people if they can't keep to abstinence, they are aware of implications and how to prevent them.

jaffa20

Salvelinus wrote: »

Bit of a bad poll, you didn't name any gods?

You mean like Jakkass. He is certainly god of this thread.

philologos

We wrote: »

Religion is a poison that has, and will continue to play its part in the all attrocities commited on this planet, whether it be the persecution of homosexuals, the condemnation of contraceptives in aids riddled Africa, which hunts in Gambia, genocide in Rwanda, the Inquisitions, the endless murders and rapings in the name of Islam and Sharia Law, the immense number of people who are willing to mindlessly accept bullshit without evidence will be led to destory themselves, and others around them.

I'm going to stick to my conviction of what is true.

Christianity has changed lives, I've seen it through myself and through other people in their daily walks in life. I find it curious that when people discuss religion, they are willing to discuss the mere fallible actions of man ahead of what Jesus of Nazareth actually put forward as an approach to life.

You can call it whatever you like, I call Christianity truth, because it has rung true for me and for others I know and respect.

I condemn the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all these detestable acts in the same way I condemn Stalin's pogroms in Russia of people of religious conviction, and in the same way I condemn North Korea's continued mistreatment of people of faith to this very day. Humans all have the ability to corrupt, but the corruption is rarely what the religion advocates. In the case of Christianity it is true, I can scarcely compare the teachings of Jesus to the corruption of people who have used His name for atrocious acts.

We wrote: »

IMHO, until the religions of the world can somehow reimburse their tragic impact by saving lives to the point where they are breakeven on the amount they have killed/saved, there is no argument for religion being a cause of good..

We already have. Religion is a visible force for good in this world, unfortunately a minority speak the loudest.

Would you mind telling me how atheists are making up for the deaths of 100 million people by their brethren in the last century? No doubt you will say that atheists aren't responsible for this, in the same way I say that modern Christians, and Jesus Christ are not responsible for the corruption of Christianity in the past. We can look back and commit ourselves to say, never again.

Let's be realistic about it though instead of entertaining mere propaganda.

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

In Christianity it is only homosexual acts (i.e sexual relations between two of the same gender) which is forbidden. In fact every sexual act that falls outside of a marriage is considered to be sinful.

Then the church marries sinners every day and has no qualms with that but is certainly outspoken on their beliefs of the former. Are all sins equal under the eyes of god

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm going to stick to my conviction of what is true.

Christianity has changed lives, I've seen it through myself and through other people in their daily walks in life. I find it curious that when people discuss religion, they are willing to discuss the mere fallible actions of man ahead of what Jesus of Nazareth actually put forward as an approach to life.

You can call it whatever you like, I call Christianity truth, because it has rung true for me and for others I know and respect.

I condemn the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all these detestable acts in the same way I condemn Stalin's pogroms in Russia of people of religious conviction, and in the same way I condemn North Korea's continued mistreatment of people of faith to this very day. Humans all have the ability to corrupt, but the corruption is rarely what the religion advocates. In the case of Christianity it is true, I can scarcely compare the teachings of Jesus to the corruption of people who have used His name for atrocious acts.



We already have. Religion is a visible force for good in this world, unfortunately a minority speak the loudest.

Would you mind telling me how atheists are making up for the deaths of 100 million people by their brethren in the last century? No doubt you will say that atheists aren't responsible for this, in the same way I say that modern Christians, and Jesus Christ are not responsible for the corruption of Christianity in the past. We can look back and commit ourselves to say, never again.

Let's be realistic about it though instead of entertaining mere propaganda.

But the deaths would never have occured if their was no religion for atheists to oppose in the beginning. Thus, the root of the problem was religion.

philologos

jaffa20 wrote: »

Then the church marries sinners every day and has no qualms with that but is certainly outspoken on their beliefs of the former. Are all sins equal under the eyes of god

It depends on whether or not repentance has taken place. If one is ready to turn away from their sins, that is key. If one commits a sin, to truly repent one should confess that sin and make every effort to turn away from that sin.

I personally am open to discussion on the issue of blessings of same sex couples in churches, if they are willing to adhere to the terms of the church.

Salvelinus

jaffa20 wrote: »

Then the church marries sinners every day and has no qualms with that but is certainly outspoken on their beliefs of the former. Are all sins equal under the eyes of god

Yes, the god who created all this worries about sex.
http://www.thundercloud.net/infoave/images/PaleBlueDot2.jpg

philologos

jaffa20 wrote: »

But the deaths would never have occured if their was no religion for atheists to oppose in the beginning. Thus, the root of the problem was religion.

Deaths as a result of racial hatred would have never occurred if there was no such thing as race for racists to oppose in the beginning. Thus, the root of the problem was race.

Absurd. Are you saying that religion justifies anti-religious hatred to the point of death?

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

It depends on whether or not repentance has taken place. If one is ready to turn away from their sins, that is key.

I didnt repent for sleeping with my now wife, then girlfriend, before I got hitched. Was my wedding invalid? Can I get an annullment?

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

It depends on whether or not repentance has taken place. If one is ready to turn away from their sins, that is key.

I personally am open to discussion on the issue of blessings of same sex couples in churches, if they are willing to adhere to the terms of the church.

You expect them to call their little girl a sin before the they marry. Oh sorry, it's the act that is the sin. I'm sorry but that act resulted in life and i doubt many people will call that creation of life a sin. I'm sure the church doesn't expect them to adhere in this regard.

Joey the lips

Yes i believe in god. I am catholic. I practise. I do not see the priests as being the church I see god as being the church! Just in case you ask.

I admire anybody with any faith and even consider an athiest to be a faith in itself. A bit PC dont you think.


I dont believe in the end of the world however I do think that we will run out of oil gas and minerals one day so all that will be left is straw roofs and a whole lot of rideing.

The straw roofs worry me.

philologos

drkpower wrote: »

I didnt repent for sleeping with my now wife, then girlfriend, before I got hitched. Was my wedding invalid? Can I get an annullment?

It would mean that you would have fallen short of God's standard. It wouldn't necessarily mean that your wedding was invalid, but that you have sinned. Obviously anulling / divorcing from a marriage that it happy would be something that a Christian wouldn't encourage unless absolutely necessary.

It is clear though that you don't intend to live under Christian standards in relation to sexual ethics. I'm merely saying that is what the case is in Christianity.

jaffa20 wrote: »

You expect them to call their little girl a sin before the they marry. Oh sorry, it's the act that is the sin. I'm sorry but that act resulted in life and i doubt many people will call that creation of life a sin. I'm sure the church doesn't expect them to adhere in this regard.

It isn't the creation of life that is a sin. It is the sexual act that is the sin. Touché.

Repentance of sin is crucial to be able to start a new life through Christ. Marriage is the context of sexual intimacy in Christianity. Therefore sex before marriage falls short of Christian standards. That's all I'm pointing out.

Bear in mind, people fall short of God's standards in many different ways, I myself am by no means blameless in this respect. It depends on whether or not you are willing to accept that you are wrong, and whether or not you are willing to do something to prevent what was wrong from happening again.

Twilightning

Joey the lips wrote: »

Yes i believe in god. I am catholic. I practise. I do not see the priests as being the church I see god as being the church! Just in case you ask.

I admire anybody with any faith and even consider an athiest to be a faith in itself. A bit PC dont you think.

I dont believe in the end of the world however I do think that we will run out of oil gas and minerals one day so all that will be left is straw roofs and a whole lot of rideing.

The straw roofs worry me.

No, that's wrong, sorry.

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

It would mean that you would have fallen short of God's standard. It wouldn't necessarily mean that your wedding was invalid, but that you have sinned. Obviously anulling / divorcing from a marriage that it happy would be something that a Christian wouldn't encourage unless absolutely necessary.

Or that the Chruch and it's people have fallen short of God's (if he exists) standard. Just like they have in many other ways.

ChocolateSauce

Almost 2/3's say no? Well I'm impressed.

Time to stop preaching atheism and start preaching militant atheism I guess!:pac:

Joey the lips

Twilightning wrote: »

No, that's wrong, sorry.

No thats wrong that i consider it? Cenfaith? I can consider what i want surley. Who are you to tell me otherwise!

philologos

jaffa20 wrote: »

Or that the Chruch and it's people have fallen short of God's (if he exists) standard. Just like they have in many other ways.

Every person has sinned before God. That's why we are Christian. One can't be Christian without accepting ones own failings and aim to walk by God's standard. That's what I am trying to do every day. No doubt I will fail, but one gets up and tries again.

I have no doubt that the Church (Christian, not just Catholic) has fallen short of God's glory. Should we give up trying to live for God in this life because we admit we aren't perfect? Of course not, we get up and try again.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

It would mean that you would have fallen short of God's standard.

Tell me; why would God believe that my having a consensual loving sexual relationship with a woman I have been in faithful relationship with for a decade and who I was marrying the following week be "below his standard"?

dr.bollocko

drkpower wrote: »

Tell me; why would God believe that my having a consensual loving sexual relationship with a woman I have been in faithful relationship with for a decade and who I was marrying the following week be "below his standard"?

Maybe you're going out with God's sister?

drkpower

drkpower wrote: »

Tell me; why would God believe that my having a consensual loving sexual relationship with a woman I have been in faithful relationship with for a decade and who I was marrying the following week be "below his standard"?

Because an omnipotent deity with the whole universe and goodness-knows-what-else as a plaything cares nothing more than what very short lived relatively insignificant people do in bed together.

I think one day I'll set up an ant farm and squish any of the unmarried ones who are acting suspiciously. Of course, I'll have to scrutinise them 24/7, but hey...

philologos

drkpower wrote: »

Tell me; why would God believe that my having a consensual loving sexual relationship with a woman I have been in faithful relationship with for a decade and who I was marrying the following week be "below his standard"?

There are several reasons for this. The main one being that in marriage, there is more security than in the case of pre-marital sex. People have different expectations of sexuality, some people may value sexuality as something less important than others end up getting in relationships with those who value sexuality more, eventually following a breakup with the former causing a lot of pain and grief for that individual.

I believe God has given us this standard to protect us from hurt.

It is better to look at God's statutes from the general viewpoint rather than a case by case analysis. It isn't my job to judge how people engage in sexuality, that is God's. People claimed that Christianity is homophobic, I have cleared up how it isn't.

I personally dread discussions about sexuality and Christianity, precisely because I know there is so much more to the Christian faith than this. Christianity offers social ethics right down to looking after those who are poor, dealing with other people, not engaging in corruption, not engaging in drunkenness, keeping true to other people, paying who you employ on time, the list goes on and on.

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

Every person has sinned before God. That's why we are Christian. One can't be Christian without accepting ones own failings and aim to walk by God's standard. That's what I am trying to do every day. No doubt I will fail, but one gets up and tries again.

I have no doubt that the Church (Christian, not just Catholic) has fallen short of God's glory. Should we give up trying to live for God in this life because we admit we aren't perfect? Of course not, we get up and try again.

Surely a personal God would be more beneficial than an organisation that falls short on so many things. The bible is open to interpretation, just like any text. If god was to exist, then we would all be made in this image and thus, would can reach out to him ourselves, in our own personal way and we can live life if he is there to guide us. I wouldn't want a church attempting to come between that connection with a set of rules for following.

jaffa20

Jakkass wrote: »

There are several reasons for this. The main one being that in marriage, there is more security than in the case of pre-marital sex. People have different expectations of sexuality, some people may value sexuality as something less important than others end up getting in relationships with those who value sexuality more, eventually following a breakup with the former causing a lot of pain and grief for that individual.

I believe God has given us this standard to protect us from hurt.

It is better to look at God's statutes from the general viewpoint rather than a case by case analysis. It isn't my job to judge how people engage in sexuality, that is God's. People claimed that Christianity is homophobic, I have cleared up how it isn't.

Yet, marriage existed long before Christianity.

macy9

You must watch this: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ZVCC7B90

Bill Maher's 'Religulous.'

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

There are several reasons for this. The main one being that in marriage, there is more security than in the case of pre-marital sex. People have different expectations of sexuality, some people may value sexuality as something less important than others end up getting in relationships with those who value sexuality more, eventually following a breakup with the former causing a lot of pain and grief for that individual.

I don't think you've seen the sheer amount of "my wife won't have sex with me or talk about it anymore and we've been celibate for 10 years now, i'm miserable" threads in PI, have you? Or the cheating in marriages ones?
There is NO difference. If you don't have open communication with your partner in the first place, a piece of paper isn't going to make a difference, and if you do, well that's down to a good relationship, not aforementioned piece of paper.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe God has given us this standard to protect us from hurt.

It is better to look at God's statutes from the general viewpoint rather than a case by case analysis. It isn't my job to judge how people engage in sexuality, that is God's. People claimed that Christianity is homophobic, I have cleared up how it isn't.

Surely if it was to protect us from hurt, he should encourage no-one to get married as a broken marriage is far more detrimental than a broken non-marriage elationship.

But more importantly, you provide general reasons for God favouring marriage. And you say, that for every case of pre/non-marital sex, one will have fallen short of Gods standard.

But doesnt God love us as individuals? Therefore surely he would judge us as individuals? And if two people are in a perfectly committed long term relationship (perhaps with children) why would God look disapprovingly on those people? Surely he would look at the individuals on a case-by-case basis. Why should we look at him on a "general" basis. He is omnipotent. Why the need for these general rules.

Im afraid you need to consider more closely who God is; because the one you seem to believe in is oncredibly inconsistent and irrational.

Ann22

Raiser wrote: »

If there was a God, what a petty little Bitch he'd have to be - look at the sorry state of the World and the misery that runs through it......

God gave us free will didn't he? Man is destroying the world - God isn't. Yes I believe....I'd be lost without my faith. I pray to St Therese of liseaux and St Padre Pio too. I always sense that they're listening.