Do you believe in God?

ilovechocolate

I consider myself a Christian and go to mass most sundays but I don't believe in everything the bible says because the bible wasn't written by God.

smcgiff

Jakkass wrote: »

Newsflash, the Bible is a book of multiple literary styles. Narrative, Allegorical, Legalistic, Prophetic, Poetic and no doubt people can subdivide these down further.

You may not, but there are a lot of people who believe the old testament is, pardon the pun, Gospel (see creationists).

And also, I really don't understand - an no offence don't think you will be able to get me to understand - why god had to die so god could save us. That in itself seem overly dramatic, couldn't he just wave his magic wand. Also was god limited (and therefore not omnipotent) in that he HAD to die, and had no choice but to die (can a god be god and not omnipotent?)

smcgiff

Jakkass wrote: »

Is it? The Bible doesn't give a date for the age of the earth. I'm quite happy to trust modern science on this one. The date for the earth being created on October 23rd 4004BC is based on an estimate that James Ussher came up with in the 17th century.

Again, there are a significant number of young earthers out there - Those that take the bible literally. They work it out by all he begats etc. We know when Jesus was born, and he can be traced all the way back (although the Gospels quote different ancestors! )

philologos

smcgiff wrote: »

You may not, but there are a lot of people who believe the old testament is, pardon the pun, Gospel (see creationists).

I have friends who are Creationists. For me I believe that the LORD created the heavens and the earth, and all that is contained within it, but I believe that the Bible deals with metaphysical and philosophical claims concerning human existence, not scientific claims. I'm open to science explaining the how.

As for the Old Testament, I do think it is valuable. We have been given the Torah writings from Genesis to Deuteronomy, the Historical books from Joshua to Esther, Poetic books from Job to the Song of Solomon, and the Prophets from Isaiah to Malachi. If one knows how to read the Old Testament in a Christian context, and with an understanding of who Jesus was and what Jesus came to do. It's immensely helpful. I have much more research to do in relation to this.

smcgiff wrote: »

And also, I really don't understand - an no offence don't think you will be able to get me to understand - why god had to die so god could save us. That in itself seem overly dramatic, couldn't he just wave his magic wand. Also was god limited (and therefore not omnipotent) in that he HAD to die, and had no choice but to die (can a god be god and not omnipotent?)

Not particularly. God had foretold that the Messiah would die for the sins of the world over 600 years before it happened in the Jewish Scriptures. (Isaiah 53).

God is a God of justice, and God is a God of mercy. For both of these to remain true, justice must be served, with an atonement as in the previous Jewish tradition (Leviticus 17). So God decided that Jesus Christ, His Son would serve as atonement for the sins of mankind. No mere man could have done this, because we have all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23, Psalms 14). We cannot redeem ourselves, this is why we need salvation. From a justice perspective, we are guilty. This is why in the Gospels it says in John 3:18 that the one who does not believe in Jesus is condemned already. Condemned in the sense that they can never receive atonement, and will be punished for their own sins by their own merit. Christians receive mercy, and in this mercy are able to put themselves right with God.

We need it, because we have sinned before God and have fallen short of His standard.

Sin separates us from God. (Isaiah 59:2)

To be redeemed, we need a away that we can be separated from sin, and united to God.

Jesus, both human and divine serves as a bridge between humanity and God, so that we can be redeemed, and united with God through His crucifixion and Resurrection. Through this act, our sins died with Jesus, and we were raised to new life in His resurrection. Hence why Christians say they are "born again" in baptism (John 3:5-7, Romans 6)

Waving His wand, if you will could indeed be an option. It would also alter His character as a God of justice if He did so. To remain just, and merciful this seems to me to make the most sense as a means of atonement.

philologos

smcgiff wrote: »

Again, there are a significant number of young earthers out there - Those that take the bible literally. They work it out by all he begats etc. We know when Jesus was born, and he can be traced all the way back (although the Gospels quote different ancestors! )

Click here for an explanation I made earlier

With a bit of research on Jewish law, this is not as difficult to explain as one would think so. (The differing genealogies).

I have yet to see your reasoning about the dating of the earth. There is nothing that rigidly defines the beginning of the earth as October 23rd 4004BC in the Bible.

smcgiff

Jakkass wrote: »

God had foretold that the Messiah would die for the sins of the world over 600 years before it happened in the Jewish Scriptures. (Isaiah 53).

Ah, so god was boxed in by what he had already foretold (Still doesn't explain why he said he would die - seem overly dramatc) and therefore limits god.

Further this leads to god knowing everything before it happens (being omnipotent) - preordained - and so this removes freewill, and the concept that we can sin. How can it be a sin if it were pre-ordained from the very beginning, but I diverse!

Jakkass wrote: »

Waving His wand, if you will could indeed be an option. It would also alter His character as a God of justice if He did so. To remain just, and merciful this seems to me to make the most sense as a means of atonement.

God of Justice, this the same god that destroyed the world (except for Noah and his fortunately chummy family), and destroyed whole cities, and gives numerous reasons for why people should be put to death (wearing of two different cloths)

smcgiff

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to see your reasoning about the dating of the earth. There is nothing that rigidly defines the beginning of the earth as October 23rd 4004BC in the Bible.

LOL - My reasoning? The earth is billions of years old.

It's christians that will claim to be able to date an earth of about six thousand years. Unfortunately I think it was an Irishman that claimed the date you mention, I think he may even have given an exact hour!

smcgiff

Jakkass,

Am I correct in thinking you believe...

The old testament is allegory and in parts wrong (because of Jewish thinking/interpretation?!?), but you still think it's necessary to rely on it in certain parts (the reason why Jesus had to die).

Do you not see this as very dodgy ground for belief?

Stercus Accidit

Jakkass wrote: »

Newsflash, the Bible is a book of multiple literary styles. Narrative, Allegorical, Legalistic, Prophetic, Poetic and no doubt people can subdivide these down further.

Sounds like there's less truth to the word of god than the worst political rhetoric we hear from Mugabe, Ahmadinejad or take your pick.

God, the slimiest weasily politician never to have existed, and the perfect tool for exactly those types of dictators to distance themselves from their own corruption.

I hate your religion and your god, even though it doesn't exist as you people say it does, it exists as an excuse for atrocity and corruption the world over.

**** God.

ozzirt

If there was a god, he'd smite those kiddie fiddling priests.

No posters in this thread been struck by lightning recently??? Not seen any priests with smoking heads and bulging eyes. No,... I don't mean Fr. O'Brien after a few too many whiskies.

Hmmm,... I guess it's pretty safe to say then, that god is a wild figment of the imagination.

Riddle101

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Sounds like there's less truth to the word of god than the worst political rhetoric we hear from Mugabe, Ahmadinejad or take your pick.

God, the slimiest weasily politician never to have existed, and the perfect tool for exactly those types of dictators to distance themselves from their own corruption.

I hate your religion and your god, even though it doesn't exist as you people say it does, it exists as an excuse for atrocity and corruption the world over.

**** God.

No Human's exist as an excuse for atrocity and corruption. It's part of human nature to destory what god created because humans allow themselves to act on there own accord without any thought of what they are doing. The Catholic church for hundreds of years had so much influence in the world, that it was able to influence governments to do their bidding hense the reason why Ireland up until the 80's had laws to do with religon and not to mention the Crusades. But these are human doings. God never told humans to go out and kill and destroy, we took it apon ourselves to do that. By all means, blame organised religon for it's part in atrocity and corruption, but not God. The church has as much to account for as we do but that shouldn't be people's motives for not believing.

PANADOL

Pace2008 wrote: »

That is ridiculous. Do you honestly think your existence is worthless apart from acting as some sort of screening process for the next life?

if you havent figured it out our existance is pointless unless ur mother thresa and contributing on some scale , if you think paying your bills going to work etc were only here to have sex and rare our young , the exact same purpose as every other species of animal on the planet next life whats that?

Stercus Accidit

Riddle101 wrote: »

No Human's exist as an excuse for atrocity and corruption. It's part of human nature to destory what god created because humans allow themselves to act on there own accord without any thought of what they are doing. The Catholic church for hundreds of years had so much influence in the world, that it was able to influence governments to do their bidding hense the reason why Ireland up until the 80's had laws to do with religon and not to mention the Crusades. But these are human doings. God never told humans to go out and kill and destroy, we took it apon ourselves to do that. By all means, blame organised religon for it's part in atrocity and corruption, but not God. The church has as much to account for as we do but that shouldn't be people's motives for not believing.

I know that, because there is no such thing as god. God is imaginary, god is a lie.

God is a lie told so many times that people who knew no better believed in it.

In this day and age, when we can know better, there is no excuse of ignorance to believe in god, only stupidity.


And I stand by my assertion that the only existence of god is as that lie, as the bomb exploding in a crowded market, the homosexual beaten to death for his sins, the orphan beaten and raped.

Oh sure, god didn't command these things, god is an imaginary nonsense, but the idea of a god has facilitated disgraceful human behaviour since societies worshipped the sun and cut their enemies hearts out to appease it.

midlandsmissus

genericguy wrote: »

and how many people actually decide to pursue a religion after carrying out their own research? if this was the case i'd have no problem, but the fact is that the vast majority of children are born as members of a religion. they don't choose.

i detest the concept of religion, but if i were magically the boss of all education, i would encourage it to be thought after the age of 16 in schools so people could attempt to develop an understanding of what people like yourself are talking about. how many devout soldiers of christ would there be in this country if that were the case, do you think?

Me anyway.

I wasn't born into anything, and chose to become Christian at 22.

My parents had the exact same idea as you, they said think about it as an adult and decide if you want to believe in anything or not.

This resulted in me choosing to be a Christian.

midlandsmissus

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I know that, because there is no such thing as god. God is imaginary, god is a lie.

God is a lie told so many times that people who knew no better believed in it.

In this day and age, when we can know better, there is no excuse of ignorance to believe in god, only stupidity.


And I stand by my assertion that the only existence of god is as that lie, as the bomb exploding in a crowded market, the homosexual beaten to death for his sins, the orphan beaten and raped.

Oh sure, god didn't command these things, god is an imaginary nonsense, but the idea of a god has facilitated disgraceful human behaviour since societies worshipped the sun and cut their enemies hearts out to appease it.

'Ignorance', 'stupidity', why do you get so worked up about something you don't even believe to be true?

If you look back on this thread, and many other similiar threads it is always the atheists calling believers stupid,ignorant etc. Whats the need for that? Seriously!

I believe that God is not a lie, and I'm very happy to believe it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I know that, because there is no such thing as god. God is imaginary, god is a lie.

God is a lie told so many times that people who knew no better believed in it.

In this day and age, when we can know better, there is no excuse of ignorance to believe in god, only stupidity.


And I stand by my assertion that the only existence of god is as that lie, as the bomb exploding in a crowded market, the homosexual beaten to death for his sins, the orphan beaten and raped.

Oh sure, god didn't command these things, god is an imaginary nonsense, but the idea of a god has facilitated disgraceful human behaviour since societies worshipped the sun and cut their enemies hearts out to appease it.

I have to laugh at how you declare those who believe in God to be showing "ignorance" yet at the same time you do not even consider the possiblity that there might be an omnipotent being behind the universe. Who is really ignorant?

Most people who believe in God, myself for example, certainly accept that there might not be one, but we choose to believe that there is. How that is ignorance I do not know. Many brilliant minds also believe in the existence of God so to call people that do "stupid" reveals your own ignorance.

People like you make me laugh. If I didn't believe in a God I wouldn't spend most of my time on the internet arguing. At least I've an excuse...

zenno

people keep saying do you believe in god ? what do most people think of god i.e. as a man or human that might have wings according to a persons or religeons belief, i don't think so.or in mans image, well i done alot of pondering for 30 years about this and my own opinion is as follows,,, i don't believe god is a man or looks anything like a man or even has physical simularities. i really think that "so called god" is electrical energy of many sorts and is so complex of a thing that obviously it will take hundreads if not thousands of years for scientists to even come close to figuring it out. don't forget we humans only last a very tiny amount of time compared to everything else aging in our own galaxy so how could we comprehend what controls or governs the universe, it would be silly to do so, we know a bit but thats all it is a bit. but you have people from all over the world that believe everything they read from a book, i know the bible is and old book but can you possibly believe anything in it it's being rewritten so many times. i honestly believe that god is in everyone and evil as well but thinking a god will come down in a chariot in human form is crazy if that was the case then he wouldn't be my god as a human being cannot be a god (physical). so called god is energy and it's everywhere on this planet and in every part of space.

Overblood

Jakkass wrote: »

As for "de-converting". Do you really think I didn't do research before accepting the position I now have? I mean, I didn't always have the beliefs I now have, it took research to get to the point where I am today.

Were you indoctrinated as a child? Yes or no.

Jakkass wrote: »

God is a God of justice, and God is a God of mercy.

ABSOLUTE BOLLOX.

gOD IS A WANKER, STRIKE ME DOWN NOW.



Hmmm... nothing happened....

In All Fairness

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's called ignosticism

My word for the day a few weeks ago

Heh mate. Thanks for the link. Like a lot of links from Jakkass, I never know whether you're agreeing, furious, rebutting or endorsing. The actual language is often above my head. But the line which basically said I can't say if I'm a theist or an atheist until we agree on the goalposts of God, is pretty much it. Thanks again.:)

In All Fairness

ozzirt wrote: »

If there was a god, he'd smite those kiddie fiddling priests.

There is and we don't.

In All Fairness

Riddle101 wrote: »

No Human's exist as an excuse for atrocity and corruption. It's part of human nature to destory what god created because humans allow themselves to act on there own accord without any thought of what they are doing. The Catholic church for hundreds of years had so much influence in the world, that it was able to influence governments to do their bidding hense the reason why Ireland up until the 80's had laws to do with religon and not to mention the Crusades. But these are human doings. God never told humans to go out and kill and destroy, we took it apon ourselves to do that. By all means, blame organised religon for it's part in atrocity and corruption, but not God. The church has as much to account for as we do but that shouldn't be people's motives for not believing.

As a christian I would have to say that this is just the sort of comment that boils my piss. The church administration is responsible for it's evil deeds not the congregation, and any christian that would try to defend the vatican or the Pope is not worthy of the title Christian. Did the Catholic Church invite you to share in the riches or just the guilt. This idea of everyone being responsible for the sins of the few is horse****. It is not acceptable in our politicians and our bankers and it sure as hell is not acceptable in our priests. The idea that anyone would believe in the genuine remorse and willingness to atone of any of these bodies is laughable. Jesus doesn't need Arthur Cox.

In All Fairness

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I know that, because there is no such thing as god. God is imaginary, god is a lie.

God is a lie told so many times that people who knew no better believed in it.

In this day and age, when we can know better, there is no excuse of ignorance to believe in god, only stupidity.


And I stand by my assertion that the only existence of god is as that lie, as the bomb exploding in a crowded market, the homosexual beaten to death for his sins, the orphan beaten and raped.

Oh sure, god didn't command these things, god is an imaginary nonsense, but the idea of a god has facilitated disgraceful human behaviour since societies worshipped the sun and cut their enemies hearts out to appease it.

And yet you blindly defend a rule of law that allows traitors and thieves live in luxury while decent men and women are made homeless.

philologos

smcgiff wrote: »

The old testament is allegory and in parts wrong (because of Jewish thinking/interpretation?!?), but you still think it's necessary to rely on it in certain parts (the reason why Jesus had to die).

I consider parts of the Old Testament to be allegory. For example Ezekiel 1 when it refers to the hand of God being put on Ezekiel, or Jeremiah 29, when God compares the Israelites to figs, either bearing good fruit or bad fruit. A precursor to Jesus' thinking on the subject. Or Ezekiel 15 referring to the vine, the vine that Jesus would later elaborate on in John 15. Ezekiel 23, personifying Jerusalem and Samaria as two sinful women, who rejected God and prostituted themselves to other nations.

The Bible has different literary styles. Some is allegory to help us to understand certain situations, other is narrative, and other is legalistic. For example, passages such as Romans 1, are quite clear, Matthew 5-7 also quite clear. Moral guidelines for our lives. Leviticus 19 which deals with the Holiness Code of Israel, again, quite clear due to its legalistic style.

The Old Testament, contains numerous writing styles. This is why people need to think when they read. So yes, quite a lot of the Old Testament did literally happen, the Old Testament also contains parables like in the New Testament. Therefore I can't say it is all "literal".

As for why Jesus had to die, I've explained that thoroughly at this stage. We are guilty because of our own sin.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6).

Therefore, to be saved, someone has to die in our place. So as to separate us from sin, and bring us closer to God.

smcgiff wrote: »

Do you not see this as very dodgy ground for belief?

No. I don't.

philologos

Overblood wrote: »

Were you indoctrinated taught about Christianity as a child? Yes or no.

I was taught about Christianity. It was limited to bible stories and parables. Much of which I never really retained after my primary education. I would have had a childlike faith that something called "God" was out there, but I didn't really know much about who God was.

I wasn't sure about what I believed pretty much for the entirety of my teenager years until I was 17. Then I decided to read the Bible, and I was surprised and inspired by it.

genericguy wrote: »

and how many people actually decide to pursue a religion after carrying out their own research? if this was the case i'd have no problem, but the fact is that the vast majority of children are born as members of a religion. they don't choose.

I did. I personally decided, did I want to follow God? Did Christianity appeal to me? This was one amongst a myriad of things.

I would say that the majority of people who continue believing in God through to their adulthood years have made some kind of conscious decision for themselves to do so.

genericguy wrote: »

The jesuits used to say "give me the child until he is 7, and i'll give you the man". if they were given a 25 year-old with considerable experience of the world, presumably past the stage of childish wonder and naivety what do you think they'd give you back?

You seem to think that people in their twenties do not find Christ. I have evidence to the contrary from experience.

genericguy wrote: »

if i told people i met jim morrison in town, but nobody else saw him, and i had no photos, who'd even listen to my next sentence?

Indeed, but other people have met God through their relationship with Him. That's why God is a different topic from pretending to have met Jim Morrison. God also has the potential to change peoples lives forever.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, but other people have met God through their relationship with Him. That's why God is a different topic from pretending to have met Jim Morrison. God also has the potential to change peoples lives forever.

Mental illness and/or hallucinations are not determined to be such based on if other people have had them too. Delusion is not a popularity contest

philologos

Am I mentally ill for feeling spiritual feelings? Interesting. I would have thought you'd have agreed that I am mentally sound enough? :pac:

genericguy

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, but other people have met God through their relationship with Him. That's why God is a different topic from pretending to have met Jim Morrison. God also has the potential to change peoples lives forever.

give me one example of this, which is backed up by concrete, recorded evidence which has been scientifically examined and verified.

please.

philologos

genericguy wrote: »

give me one example of this, which is backed up by concrete, recorded evidence which has been scientifically examined and verified.

please.

Can you scientifically verify life experience?

You compared God to discussing meeting Jim Morrison and telling everyone about it while having no photos. The difference is, that people can relate to being in prayer with God in some way, they cannot relate to someone seeing Jim Morrison a physical being without bringing any pictures of it.

For the Christian, if one claims to be in a relationship with God, verifying it doesn't come as a means of pictures obviously, but through a change of action and a change of behaviour. That's how I can tell if someone has accepted the Gospel.

DrumSteve

Is the christian God as real as Allah or Buddah?

RandomName2

The sinfullness of humanity is one of my pet hates about Christianity. It is a trope designed to aggrandise the hierarchical power of the Church.

Indeed, traditional Catholicism ascribes sinfullness to all mortal actions, and even actions predating mortal humans' existence.

The fallacy in the Chruch's argument is relatively straight-forward. God gives humanity enough rope to hang itself, allows the existence of evil and temptation, actually creates humanity to be inherently sinful, and then gets on his high horse when 'free-will' allows humanity to be naughty. In fact, the message in Genesis is particularly unpleasant: it is knowledge which God forbids, and it is the display of knowledge which induces his wrath.

Of course you can ascribe as much of the Bible to allegory as you like (you would be well advised to ascribe pretty much everything in the Old Testament to allegory). But from a purely factual point of view, in terms of Christianity, there was a man who was named Jesus who was executed by the Romans due to the danger he posed as a religious prophet. Christians claim him as a messiah, the Jews claim that he wasn't the real deal (and they are still waiting).

But, of course, the Roman Chruch had to put the spin of virtue and sin onto the martyrdom of Jesus, whereby mortals are immoral and God is inherently noble. Jesus was born through immaculate conception (whist humans are born though sinful sexual intercourse), lived a blameless life, was abandoned and betrayed by his weak mortal followers, and executed by man. If you believe that Jesus is God it is not all that much of an ordeal - hundreds of thousands of people were crucified by the Romans, and being omnipotent (and ultimately immortal) vastly outweighs any pain and suffering that might be suffered. Personally I think being hung drawn and quartered is quite a deal more unpleasant than crucifiction....

So God chooses to project himself in the form of a mortal avatar, and then equally decides that the death of this avatar should occur at around the average life-span of men of that period. And for that we, at present, are supposed to not only feel guilty, but direct our lives around this assumed guilt?

Perhaps it might be better for people to live life as if this is all there is - and live to create a better world on earth; instead of putting it off for the hope of a better one after death. If you live a good life, the best that you know how, and there happens to be a God - well then you morally deserve a good after-life. If this hypothetical God throws you down to hell because you eat meat on a friday, because you haven't had water splashed on your head in the presence of some guy in a frock, not gone on pilrimage to Mecca or Jeruslalem, die without having gone to confession, or having drank alcohol, then he is a bit of a jack-ass, to be honest.

ei.sdraob

Rape In The Bible

Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.

So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don't want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to "taking a wife". Don't be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to "take" these wives.

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Greentopia

Haven't gone through all the posts-too teal deer-but in answer to the poll question, no I do not believe in any god or gods. I would define myself as being a soft atheist.

DamoDLK

Mmm interesting takes and opinions here. But irrespective of what almost EVERYONE here is saying, when they are on their death bed, by jaysus they will pray.

let me in

How many religions and gods are there?
Is one religion true and the others false or are they all false?
The vast majority of people have the faith they were born into - true or false?

If you believe in heaven why have u not dedicated your life to ensuring that you get in?

genericguy

DamoDLK wrote: »

Mmm interesting takes and opinions here. But irrespective of what almost EVERYONE here is saying, when they are on their death bed, by jaysus they will pray.

i won't. thanks for playing though.

DamoDLK

genericguy wrote: »

i won't. thanks for playing though.

meh, bet ya you will.

genericguy

Jakkass wrote: »

Can you scientifically verify life experience?

You compared God to discussing meeting Jim Morrison and telling everyone about it while having no photos. The difference is, that people can relate to being in prayer with God in some way, they cannot relate to someone seeing Jim Morrison a physical being without bringing any pictures of it.

For the Christian, if one claims to be in a relationship with God, verifying it doesn't come as a means of pictures obviously, but through a change of action and a change of behaviour. That's how I can tell if someone has accepted the Gospel.

life experience? come on, i once ate food and i needed to take a shit later. same thing happens to everyone, there's an experience for you. a handful of christians claim to have had conferences with god, without anything to substantiate the claim. even the most devout fail to receive personal communication from this guy. just because there are more people deluded about god than about anybody else, doesn't make it any more true.

i'm perfectly capable of refraining from murdering those around me or raping women wothout god. i'm also perfectly capable of taking stock of things i do in my life in order to improve myself as a person without god.

i actually feel sorry for you, and others of your ilk, because while you sit down praying, it is myself and those like me who truly get to enjoy the world.

genericguy

DamoDLK wrote: »

meh, bet ya you will.

wonderful, wonderful arguments. i bet allah would be proud.

philologos

ei.sdraob - None of those passages refer to rape explicitly. Infact your passages in Deuteronomy chapter 22 even go on to prohibit rape. Interesting that people are so selective in what they are reading.

The Jewish law distinguishes between cases in urban and rural settings.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 wrote:

If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall bring both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbour’s wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst

In an urban area, if there is no evidence that the woman attempted to scream for help, or to restrain the rapist there is no evidence to suggest that it was not consensual.

Deuteronomy 22:25 wrote:

But if the man meets the engaged woman in the open country, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.

If if occurs with no people surrounding, then there was no avaliable means of redress. If this was a case of rape the man will be put to death under the Jewish law.

Now the bit you are referring to concerning the 50 shekels, is dealt with separate to rape, it deals with premarital consenual sex.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 wrote:

If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

You quote Judges, 2 times, in the book of Judges chapters 19 - 20, it refers to the punishment of the tribe of Benjamin for the rape of Gibeah. The Israelites frowned upon rape.

As for Zechariah, yes that refers to what armies would do when they conquered Israel, as a means of punishment for their sinfulness after centuries of warning, and calling people to repent.

Can I ask you what website did you copy and paste that from? I ask, because it is the epitome of ignorance concerning the text. Mere junk.

Reading in context, and reading it for yourself is also important. What people ignore is often more telling about the intention of the writer than what is included.

DamoDLK

genericguy wrote: »

wonderful, wonderful arguments. i bet allah would be proud.

I don't see the point tbh.. i've read with some interest your previous posts, its clear that your opposed to the 'whole thing', thus, my point is simple at the end of the day when you (you being anybody) are on your deathbed you'll pray. I'd guarantee it because theres always always going to be that 'what if' doubt. The what if i was wrong..

I'm not the best Catholic on the face of the earth by any stretch of the imagination, but i already know that when my time comes i'll pray.

BTW Allah?? whats your point there?

philologos

let me in wrote: »

How many religions and gods are there?

As for how many religions there is, there is no doubt thousands.

As for how many gods. I believe there is only one. The LORD who created the heavens and the earth.

let me in wrote: »

Is one religion true and the others false or are they all false?
The vast majority of people have the faith they were born into - true or false?

1. Let me ask you a question. If many religions contradict eachother in comparison, how could one assert that they are all true.

2. Born into? What do you mean by that though? You mean they have the religion of their parents. Probably. Isn't it also true that there are millions of converts to Christianity each year from other religions? It would be a bit disingenuous to say that all Christians have Christian parents.

let me in wrote: »

If you believe in heaven why have u not dedicated your life to ensuring that you get in?

I don't need to "ensure" that I get in. We aren't saved by works. We are saved by faith. Jesus has forgiven us so that we may live for God, but when we accept faith in Jesus and His Resurrection, we are already saved, we have nothing to fear. That's grace. Christians live under grace, Jews lived under law. Christians are free from the slavery to sin, we have received grace. It is how we respond to grace that matters.

ei.sdraob

why dont you read this then...



The story of Lot and the Sodomites is eerily echoed in chapter
19 of the book of Judges, where an unnamed Levite (priest) was
travelling with his concubine in Gibeah. They spent the night in the
house of a hospitable old man. While they were eating their supper,
the men of the city came and beat on the door, demanding that the
old man should hand over his male guest 'so that we may know
him'. In almost exactly the same words as Lot, the old man said:
'Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that
this man is come into mine house do not this folly. Behold, here is
my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out
now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good
unto you; but unto this man do not so vile a thing' (Judges 19:
23-4). Again, the misogynistic ethos comes through, loud and
clear. I find the phrase 'humble ye them' particularly chilling. Enjoy
yourselves by humiliating and raping my daughter and this priest's
concubine, but show a proper respect for my guest who is, after all,
male. In spite of the similarity between the two stories, the denouement
was less happy for the Levite's concubine than for Lot's daughters.


The Levite handed her over to the mob, who gang-raped her all
night: 'They knew her and abused her all the night until the morn-
ing: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came
the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door
of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light' (Judges 19:
25-6). In the morning, the Levite found his concubine lying
prostrate on the doorstep and said - with what we today might see
as callous abruptness - 'Up, and let us be going.' But she didn't
move. She was dead. So he 'took a knife, and laid hold on his con-
cubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces,
and sent her into all the coasts of Israel'. Yes, you read correctly.
Look it up in Judges 19: 29. Let's charitably put it down again to
the ubiquitous weirdness of the Bible. This story is so similar to that
of Lot, one can't help wondering whether a fragment of manuscript
became accidentally misplaced in some long-forgotten scriptorium:
an illustration of the erratic provenance of sacred texts.



Lot's uncle Abraham was the founding father of all three 'great'
monotheistic religions. His patriarchal status renders him only
somewhat less likely than God to be taken as a role model. But
what modern moralist would wish to follow him? Relatively early
n his long life, Abraham went to Egypt to tough out a famine with
his wife Sarah. He realized that such a beautiful woman would be
desirable to the Egyptians and that therefore his own life, as her
husband, might be endangered. So he decided to pass her of as his sister. In this capacity she was taken into Pharaoh's harem, and
Abraham consequently became rich in Pharaoh's favour. God dis-
approved of this cosy arrangement, and sent plagues on Pharaoh
and his house (why not on Abraham?). An understandably
aggrieved Pharaoh demanded to know why Abraham had not told
him Sarah was his wife. He then handed her back to Abraham and
kicked them both out of Egypt (Genesis 12: 18-19). Weirdly, it
seems that the couple later tried to pull the same stunt again, this
time with Abimelech the King of Gerar. He too was induced by
Abraham to marry Sarah, again having been led to believe she
was Abraham's sister, not his wife (Genesis 20: 2-5). He too
expressed his indignation, in almost identical terms to Pharaoh's,
and one can't help sympathizing with both of them. Is the similarity
another indicator of textual unreliability?

krudler

To quote George Carlin:

When it comes to bull****, big-time, major league bull****, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is ****ed up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of **** you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever **** things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a ****. Doesn't give a ****, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

philologos

ei.sdraob: What happened in Judges 20?

Judges 20:8-11 wrote:

All the people got up as one, saying, ‘We will not any of us go to our tents, nor will any of us return to our houses. But now this is what we will do to Gibeah: we will go up against it by lot. We will take ten men of a hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred of a thousand, and a thousand of ten thousand, to bring provisions for the troops, who are going to repay Gibeah of Benjamin for all the disgrace that they have done in Israel.’ So all the men of Israel gathered against the city, united as one.

The very passage itself refers to it as a disgrace. Not something that is a virtue. As in Genesis 19, The Bible is showing us sin, so that we may learn from it and not repeat the disgrace that happened in Israel!

Skeptics websites are not interested in truth, they are interested in twisting. Read the Bible for yourself if you want to adequately discuss it.

Again, what people leave out, is more telling about their purpose than what they include.

We can all copy and paste from websites. However, don't atheists encourage "rational thought", thinking for oneself? You're showing yourself to be a hypocrite here. Either you do want to think for yourself, or you want to sell yourself into someone else's distortion on the Bible?

let me in

As for how many gods. I believe there is only one. The LORD who created the heavens and the earth. - I wasn't asking you what you believed.



1. Let me ask you a question. If many religions contradict eachother in comparison, how could one assert that they are all true.- I never asserted that they were all true

It would be a bit disingenuous to say that all Christians have Christian parents.-Did I say that?I thought I said the vast majority



I don't need to "ensure" that I get in. We aren't saved by works. We are saved by faith.-so the serial killer that believes is going to heaven?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

ei.sdraob - None of those passages refer to rape explicitly. Infact your passages in Deuteronomy chapter 22 even go on to prohibit rape. Interesting that people are so selective in what they are reading.

These aren't the droids you're looking for

robby^5

DamoDLK wrote: »

I don't see the point tbh.. i've read with some interest your previous posts, its clear that your opposed to the 'whole thing', thus, my point is simple at the end of the day when you (you being anybody) are on your deathbed you'll pray. I'd guarantee it because theres always always going to be that 'what if' doubt. The what if i was wrong...

Depends on an individual persons convictions, you cant make sweeping generalisations like that. I for one wont be wasting my last moments praying to an imaginary god on my deathbed for forgiveness, I'll be spending that time around my loved ones thank you very much.

But that "what if" doubt goes two ways you know and personally I'd hate to be in your shoes...imagine being convinced that you'll always exist, that you'll live on in an afterlife forever...now imagine being that deluded your entire life to only end up questioning that belief on your death bed, after all there will always be that "what if" doubt right?

It would be pretty terrifying to have such a comforting idea (an afterlife) put in doubt with very little time to come to terms with the prospect.

philologos

let me in wrote: »

As for how many gods. I believe there is only one. The LORD who created the heavens and the earth. - I wasn't asking you what you believed.

There is one in my opinion as a monotheist.

let me in wrote: »

1. Let me ask you a question. If many religions contradict eachother in comparison, how could one assert that they are all true.- I never asserted that they were all true

Right, but it is quite reasonable to suggest that if things contradict they cannot all be true?

let me in wrote: »

It would be a bit disingenuous to say that all Christians have Christian parents.-Did I say that?I thought I said the vast majority

It isn't an adequate assessment of peoples faith though. Even in cases where people have Christian parents they still have to make their own decision.

let me in wrote: »

I don't need to "ensure" that I get in. We aren't saved by works. We are saved by faith.-so the serial killer that believes is going to heaven?

We need to repent, and accept that Jesus died for our sins, and aim to change our ways. If we have sincere faith in this forgiveness that Christ has offered us, then yes, there is salvation even for the serial killer if he is truly sorry for what he has done.

genericguy

DamoDLK wrote: »

I don't see the point tbh.. i've read with some interest your previous posts, its clear that your opposed to the 'whole thing', thus, my point is simple at the end of the day when you (you being anybody) are on your deathbed you'll pray. I'd guarantee it because theres always always going to be that 'what if' doubt. The what if i was wrong..

I'm not the best Catholic on the face of the earth by any stretch of the imagination, but i already know that when my time comes i'll pray.

BTW Allah?? whats your point there?

so do you not believe in allah?

i will not pray on my deathbed, i can assure you. if i was wrong, and evidence was presented, i'd be the first to admit my folly, but the religious will always say when presented with evidence "god put it there". at the end of the day it'd be someone like me getting the manager's job in heaven if it exists, because nobody puts a sheep in charge of anything.

the bottom line of my argument is:

I'm a good person because i choose to be, not because someone who i can't see tells me he'll send me to be set on fire forever if i don't.

Precious flower

I do believe in God. I know there are wars and famine happening here on earth and there are some really sick [people out there but we all have free will, God gave us free will to do as we pleased.
I'd like to think there is somewhere where we go after we die where we get to see everyon who know who has passed on. Some people blame God on the bad things that have happened to them in their life and then turn away from him, which I think is unreasonable.

But I don't think religion should be made an exam subject in third year, although as people have pointed out to me if it wasn't no one would study it.:p