College fees

Orla K

I know how students and incoming students feel about fees but, I'm just wondering about everybody else, are you in favour of the fees?

It's just been in the news today, this is from the Irish times

THE DEPARTMENT of Education has instructed third-level colleges to put new students on notice they may be liable for new fees from next year.
Students will be told of their potential liability for fees when they register for the first time next month.
Most third-level students already pay a registration charge of about €1,500.
In a letter circulated by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) on behalf of the department, college presidents have been asked to inform all new students, as part of their induction, that third-level fees may be reintroduced in the 2010 academic year.
The department hopes this move will help to avert any legal challenge by students to a new fees regime.
Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe has said current third-level students would not be liable for any new loans or fees regime.
However, he insists the new fees or loan regime will apply to those beginning college next month.
The department has been advised that any legal challenge to the new fees regime is less likely to succeed if students are alerted to the possibility of increased charges at registration.
The legal view is that it is not possible to impose a new regime on existing students who had a reasonable expectation of proceeding through college without the burden of new charges.
Next month the Cabinet is expected to consider a 100-page option paper circulated to Ministers by Mr O’Keeffe.
While the Minister supports a new student-loan scheme, no option – including a return to “upfront” fees – has been ruled out until the Cabinet signs off on the issue.
Last night USI president Peter Mannion said it was “appalling that this Minister has pre-empted his colleagues’ feedback just weeks before they are due to submit their views on the reintroduction of third-level fees”.
In his letter, HEA chief executive Tom Boland tells college presidents how the Minister has circulated a review of available options to members of Cabinet in advance of possible future Government consideration of policy decisions on the issue.
“Incoming students in the 2009/2010 academic year should now be on notice that in the event of a Government decision to introduce a new form of student contribution from a future point in time, any such arrangements are liable to apply, from that time, to students who enter higher education this year.”
Mr Mannion said the letter suggests that the Minister has already made up his mind to reintroduce fees without hearing the views of Cabinet.
He said it was grotesque that thousands of students, as part of their induction to college, would be burdened with the anxiety that they could be facing crippling debt in the near future.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0820/1224252952086.html

MrStuffins

This is ridiculous. I'm (hopefully) going into my 4th year this year and there was no way i could raise the €1500 needed for my fees because of how the labour market is. I couldnt get a summer job this year and my last hope is the grant, which they've turned me down for before!

Luckily it wont be me next year but my brother will be in college and there's no way he will be able to afford to go to college. And if he doesnt get a qualification he can't get a job.... :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

KINGVictor

Quite unfortunate really,one would have expected the incoming students in september to be exempt from the fees next year,but the truth is that the Government has very little choice but to introduce fees.I just pray that the mess it all up like they have done with the HSE.

Hagar

Wrong forum, moved from AH to... College

Orla K

Hagar wrote: »

Wrong forum, moved to...

I put it in this forum to get peoples opinions who are not students so I would like it to stay in After hours.

ChocolateSauce

As a forth year student, I think fees should be introduced. Not upfront of course; they should be paid after you graduate and only when you have a job.

Even the most liberal estimates claim that fees will amount to no more than 40,000 euros. People with degrees usually earn at least 10,000 a year more than those who don't have them, so after four years you're making a profit. College isn't free, and we'll be paying for it sooner or later, either ourselves or for others through our taxes when we're older, and the current system is extremely wasteful. I'd say fewer than 40% of my original 1st year class is still here. Making people pay themselves will reduce waste, encourage better performance and will enable to colleges to provide a better education.

Hagar

Maybe a kindly EDU mod will bounce it back. I'll see if I can contact one.

/sees batsignal.

Moved back to AH.

spoofilyj

I'm finished college two years now and did'nt have to pay fees. I could not have gone had there been fees but now have a job paying hugh tax back so in a way I'm helping the economy with my tax. If I had not gone I would no doubt be in a crap minimum wage job and not really contributing to the good of the country. So the government are once more proving to be the idiots we now know they are...:mad::mad:

brummytom

We have them here (despite Labour promising they wouldn't introduce them :rolleyes: )

Think they're a stupid idea, what a way to start your career.. with a heap of debt

Mossy Monk

Let them pay.

ceannair06

Bring them in - why should you get a free ride to do bloody Media Studies etc ?

Do Law, Med etc - then we'll box you off for free. You'll be helping the country.

Indulge your Tarantino fantasy and it should cost you.

Cookie_Monster

Since I'm out of college and supporting you free loaders with my taxes I voted to bring them back, I'm just that selfish!

TheBandit

I think you should only have to pay fees is you drop out or fail exams. If you drop out half way through a year(not applicable for extreme circumstances, death in the family etc) you should pay fees for that year. If you fail and exam and repeat you should have to pay x amount per exam to repeat(say 200-300e). This would get rid of the waster attitude but make college available to everyone. It would reward you for being a good student

dlofnep

Nope, introduction of fees creates a barrier and only allows those who can afford education to go. This creates inequality in society, which will see families who barely make the grade miss out on education opportunities because they can't afford to send their kids to college.

I think college should be available for everyone, to give everyone a shot at education. The said educated workforce will be contributing to the economy once they are out in the work-place, on high-earning jobs - which creates real wealth in the economy. To say that education is a complete drain on the economy is a fallacy.

Every family should be able to give their children a shot at third level education.

Edgedinblue

i think this whole fees thing is a load of poop tbh. i read awhile back in some newspaper (or maybe it was on here?) that the government are complaining that they want more people to go to college to study, science subjects to be specific so they can have top science graduates coming from this country to work for major companies or to bring more money in. yet if the fees come in noone will be in college bar the rich folk :rolleyes:

Saying that my fees have jumped up to 1600euros this year, from 1000euros last year. Honestly a thousand was alot to begin with for me! And this summer i couldnt get a job either in galway or in meath! I'm not suitable for a grant or any of that money lark and have been turned down quite a bit on that front. So in my opinion i think this whole fees idea should be thrown out. either that or quit college and hello dole queue!

Sulmac

I support the system where you pay the cost (or part of it) back through the PRSI system, rather than becoming loaded in debt directly.

I'm going into college soon and I'm wise enough to realise there's no such thing as "free" college, and if we want well funded colleges without loading students with debt the best way to do it is through a (small) tax increase at the start of their working life.

Plus, Batt O'Keeffe is a bollix anyway. :pac:

dlofnep

TheBandit wrote: »

I think you should only have to pay fees is you drop out or fail exams. If you drop out half way through a year(not applicable for extreme circumstances, death in the family etc) you should pay fees for that year. If you fail and exam and repeat you should have to pay x amount per exam to repeat(say 200-300e). This would get rid of the waster attitude but make college available to everyone. It would reward you for being a good student

Nonsense, not everyone is a waster because they fail exams. They just might find one subject in particular difficult. I've never failed an exam in college, but I did come close to failing maths one semester and got 40 on the button. Maths was just my weak point - I'd hate to think that if I failed it, I would be penalised. I studied as hard as I could, and I think that's what got me the pass just about. Maths is especially difficult for mature students like myself who have been out of school for a few years and have lost alot of the maths we learned.

dlofnep

Sulmac wrote: »

I support the system where you pay the cost (or part of it) back through the PRSI system, rather than becoming loaded in debt directly.

That won't work. It will encourage mass emigration, and has been well documented in Australia where a similar system is in place. The educated workforce are already contributing back to the economy by earning more, and contributing more tax.

Orla K

I could be corrected on this as I'm not too sure. If you fail an exam and have to repeat you do have to pay to resit it.


Don't forget for those people who don't get grants they already have to pay a fee at the start of the college term. I'm not sure how much it is, it might vary from college to college.

Also, the money from the fees (just mispelt it frees:D) they plan in introducing will probably not be going back into the education system.

Rujib1

What about this mature student lark :rolleyes: Get yourself on the dole for a year. Sign up for college next year. Get the whole shootin match for free

At leat that is what the guy down the road told me who never worked in his life, and lives like a lord :cool:

R1

tolosenc

I'm going in to 3rd year and believe that they should be reintroduced.

The quality of the Universities in Ireland has been greatly diminished by the fees remission scheme. The entire system would be far better off with fees.

People who wish to go to college should pay for it themselves and not expect other people to pay for them. 3rd level education is a privelage, not a right. Nothing in life is free.

Edgedinblue

Orla K wrote: »

Don't forget for those people who don't get grants they already have to pay a fee at the start of the college term. I'm not sure how much it is, it might vary from college to college.

thats very true, I myself dont get any grants or any of that and my fees are 1600euros this year. Also a friend of mine in the same course as myself is a mature student. all she pays all year is 100euros and all her trips are paid for her along with the load of money she gets! Even then she complains she has no money :rolleyes: yeah right try living off my budget for couple of months!

KerranJast

dlofnep wrote: »

Nope, introduction of fees creates a barrier and only allows those who can afford education to go. This creates inequality in society, which will see families who barely make the grade miss out on education opportunities because they can't afford to send their kids to college.

I think college should be available for everyone, to give everyone a shot at education. The said educated workforce will be contributing to the economy once they are out in the work-place, on high-earning jobs - which creates real wealth in the economy. To say that education is a complete drain on the economy is a fallacy.

Every family should be able to give their children a shot at third level education.

The vast majority of the middle class in Ireland can afford to fund their kids through college. What we should be doing is reintroducing fees on a means tested basis and then enlarging the base of the grants scheme and the amount of the grants given to facilitate more kids from poorer backgrounds to go to College.

All the studies show that free 3rd level education just allowed middle class parents to spend the money they would have spent on college fees on better secondary education (usually private/grind school) for their kids thereby perpetuating the advantage they have over children from less well off backgrounds. There was no huge upsurge in students from disadvantaged areas going to College.

pikachucheeks

I think the fees are ridiculous.

The "free fees" scheme enabled everyone to go to college, regardless of their financial situation. Everyone was given equal opportunities and the chance to avail of further education, if they wanted it - this can only be seen as a positive thing. It made it fair for everyone.

I think it's a great shame that fees are being brought back in. Not only because it's an indication of the government's failure to comply with their own policies, but it will rule out many peoples chances of ever getting a degree, while putting huge financial strain on those who do chose to enter third level education.

bleg

Primary and secondary education are a right. Tertiary education is a privilege. Fees are a fact of life in most countries. They're coming back here in Ireland. Get used to it.

bleg

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I think it's a great shame that fees are being brought back in. Not only because it's an indication of the government's failure to comply with their own policies, but it will rule out many peoples chances of ever getting a degree,

So what, nobody is entitled to a third level qualification whether it be a diploma, cert or degree!

pikachucheeks wrote: »

while putting huge financial strain on those who do chose to enter third level education.

Making sure they work hard at their degree and don't take it for granted. I definitely took my under grad course for granted and missed lectures left right and centre. The mature students in my course were excellent for attending lectures, the undergrads not so much, the difference: the mature students were paying, the undergrads weren't.

Secoundrow

No Fees Mr. Minister

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: < Im This many angry faces mad

dlofnep

bleg wrote: »

So what, nobody is entitled to a third level qualification whether it be a diploma, cert or degree!

Yes, yes they are. When you dictate who can get a third level education and who can't, you create a divide in society - which keeps the upper classes education, and the less-off families undereducated.

dearg lady

KerranJast wrote: »

There was no huge upsurge in students from disadvantaged areas going to College.

Why is this I wonder? The option was there, if people from these areas choose not to go, all the free fees in the world won't make any difference no?

Personally I'm torn on the idea of fees, I think it's a good idea to have some charge(though not full fees) so people value their education instead of just expecting it, however in most cases the parents would pay and the kids still wouldn't have an appreciation for it!

Cookie_Monster

Fees are effectivly back anyway. €1,500 to register, wtf? My course only cost €1,750 for the year I had to pay anyway...

bleg

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, yes they are. When you dictate who can get a third level education and who can't, you create a divide in society - which keeps the upper classes education, and the less-off families undereducated.

They're really not. Our universities are under funded and the state cannot support free tertiary education anymore. It's a completely untenable situation!

DoireNod

ceannair06 wrote: »

Bring them in - why should you get a free ride to do bloody Media Studies etc ?

Why not?

Do Law, Med etc - then we'll box you off for free. You'll be helping the country.

Helping the country? Will they be helping the country when they can't get a job here and have to move abroad? Also, does studying Law and Medicine make you a better person or more deserving of an education? No.

Indulge your Tarantino fantasy and it should cost you.

Tarantino fantasy is a bit much. Some people are interested in a career in Media, just as some people are interested in a career in Medicine or Law. What's wrong with that? Penalising people that don't want to do so-called 'real' subjects is a ridiculous suggestion.

bleg

dearg lady wrote: »

however in most cases the parents would pay and the kids still wouldn't have an appreciation for it!

The top idea being thrashed out at the moment is the loan scheme whereby after graduation, when a graduate reaches a certain level of income they pay a levy to pay for their third level education. Stops the parents from paying. Nothing has been ruled out though.

Secoundrow

Toulousain wrote: »

People who wish to go to college should pay for it themselves and not expect other people to pay for them. 3rd level education is a privelage, not a right. Nothing in life is free.

:rolleyes: Says the person who just did two years in college paid for courtasy of the irish goverment

and also a person who will remain entirly uneffected by the goverments dicision...


Just saying, dont get all high and mighty saying we should be paying fees when your going to continue getting your tuition fees payed by the irish tax payer

Long Onion

I think that the fact that our government won't commit proper funding to the third level instutions, allied with the fact that there are no fees is having a detrimental effect on the quality of out Uni's.

The research grants are going to the Uni's with the best facilities (usually abroad) the post grad's are following them. We need to get some more money in there somehow. Obviously it would be great to have free education but not at any cost.

Introduce a randome tax - pick a random letter of the alphabet each year and any student who has that letter in their name has to pay fees for that year, the rest escape. This would in a way target the wealthier classes who tend to have double-barrelled surnames and those eliteist oirishy types.

Batt* O'Keeffe could do the draw live on T.V. every year.

*What the FCUK type of a name is Batt anyway ?

dearg lady

bleg wrote: »

The top idea being thrashed out at the moment is the loan scheme whereby after graduation, when a graduate reaches a certain level of income they pay a levy to pay for their third level education. Stops the parents from paying. Nothing has been ruled out though.

yeah, that's true, I think if it was straight forward fees though, parents would foot a lot of the bill, where possible.
As regards the loan scheme, I'd be concerned about emigration. Especially if other countries begin to recover from the recession before Ireland. It's a tough one to get right

peepeep

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is ridiculous. I'm (hopefully) going into my 4th year this year and there was no way i could raise the €1500 needed for my fees because of how the labour market is. I couldnt get a summer job this year and my last hope is the grant, which they've turned me down for before!

Luckily it wont be me next year but my brother will be in college and there's no way he will be able to afford to go to college. And if he doesnt get a qualification he can't get a job.... :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Well if you don't qualify for the grant, that means you have enough money not to need it - which would also suggest you could afford to pay fees.

Cookie_Monster

Long Onion wrote: »

*What the FCUK type of a name is Batt anyway ?

Short for Batrick

bleg

DoireNod wrote: »

Helping the country? Will they be helping the country when they can't get a job here and have to move abroad?

Nope. However under the current system students are getting free education (burden on the State) and then because there are fewer jobs in Ireland some are moving abroad. This means the State is getting hit twice. Firstly when the State pays for the fees and secondly when the State misses out on taxes the graduate would pay if working in Ireland.

If the loan system were brought in the State would only receive a loss in revenue due to missed taxes.

DigiGal

I got a 35 grand scholarship...lucky me
*gets on high horse, clippity clops off*

andrew

To the people who don't want to pay fees - you do realise that the more the government pays to universities, the less it pays to primary and secondary schools. So before you say No to fees, be sure you're ok with underfunded primary and secondary schools. Y'know, the schools which provide the bulk of a person's education and which contribute most to their earning potential.

DigiGal

andrew wrote: »

To the people who don't want to pay fees - you do realise that the more the government pays to universities, the less it pays to primary and secondary schools. So before you say No to fees, be sure you're ok with underfunded primary and secondary schools. Y'know, the schools which provide the bulk of a person's education and which contribute most to their earning potential.

Ah as if the government are going to use the money for anyhting that benefits the public anyway....

mobius42

I love how some people think that at the moment we are getting a "free ride" through college and that we're a bunch of freeloaders. College, as it is, is not free. I have to pay a registration fee of €1500 this year and money for rent, ESB, heating & food on top of that. I know loads of people who can barely afford to attend college as it is; introducing fees would prevent many deserving people from attending.

I'm sure that there are many people who don't deserve to go to college, but I would rather see someone undeserving get through than see someone turned away because they can't afford it.

Jenroche

Kids shouldn't be deprived of the chance to go to college because they can't afford it. My son's going to go to college either this year or next year and if they bring the fees in it's going to mean his getting a student loan or not going. No thank you Mr Minister! :mad:

Jen ;->

Orla K

dearg lady wrote: »

KerranJast wrote: »

There was no huge upsurge in students from disadvantaged areas going to College.

Why is this I wonder? The option was there, if people from these areas choose not to go, all the free fees in the world won't make any difference no?

I can kind of answer that one but I'm sure someone here would have a better answer. I know some people that were teachers in very disadvantaged areas. Alot of the students were not being cared for by the parents, ie given money to let the child find it's own dinner chips and sweets, one 14/15 year old had ALL rotten teeth, another student killed his mother over the christmas holidays, college for these kids is near impossible since one class of 12/13 year olds were having trouble reading and writing basic things. If there is any students that are able to go to college the teachers encourage it but I'm sure seeing your friend leave school at 16 and get a crap job where all they have to spend the money on is drugs and alcohol is a huge temtation when you've just finished the leaving cert, in there eyes why spend more time being a broke student when you can just get money and have a laugh.

But that is another topic which I won't go into any further on this tread.

dearg lady

peepeep wrote: »

Well if you don't qualify for the grant, that means you have enough money not to need it - which would also suggest you could afford to pay fees.

The grants system may have changed since I was in college (a good while ago now!!!) so correct me if I'm wrong on this. When I applied for a grant it was based on my parents earnings for the previous year. It wasn't based on my OWN ability to pay. I was refused on this basis, and my parents paid half of the money, and I paid the rest. I know plenty of people who paid their own way through college and never got a grant due to their parents earnings

Cookie_Monster

mobius42 wrote: »

and money for rent, ESB, heating & food on top of that.

Thats because of your choice of college though and nothing to do with the "cost of college". You could live at home and not pay all of that if you went somewhere local. (obviously not always possible)

Cookie_Monster

dearg lady wrote: »

The grants system may have changed since I was in college (a good while ago now!!!) so correct me if I'm wrong on this. When I applied for a grant it was based on my parents earnings for the previous year. It wasn't based on my OWN ability to pay. I was refused on this basis, and my parents paid half of the money, and I paid the rest. I know plenty of people who paid their own way through college and never got a grant due to their parents earnings

I've always thought that was a bit crazy especially if you're not living at home. My earnings were no where near the upper limit and I would have qualified but my parent earning way over grant. They did not pay anything towrds college for my 5 years apart from the first years reg fee and I would in no way expect them to.

Orla K

I just realised that it probably won't be the student loan, pay when you get a job kind of thing. The government want money now, they're not going to wait 3,4,5 years to get it.

Long Onion

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Thats because of your choice of college though and nothing to do with the "cost of college". You could live at home and not pay all of that if you went somewhere local. (obviously not always possible)

I agree with this. I know many people attending college in other countries and a 3/4 hour commute to college is a norm in many instances. Here though, it seems if the Uni is on the other side of the road we need to move out and rent?

I would hope to but my son a cheap (1-2k) car and let him drive to and from Uni this way he can learn how to drive, be more employable in the summer and have a greater degree of freedom. If he wants to move out, let him get a job and pay the rent himself.