Lockerbie bomber released!...Dead 3 years later.

wes

ejmaztec wrote: »

But the western allies preferred working with the Nazis after WW2, because the Soviets became Public Enemy No1. They should have released Hess, given that worse Nazis than he were in cahoots with the West, and free.

Well, my point is that is the former allies wanted to release someone like Hess, who was involved in some of the worlds worst atrocities, then there is a precedent for this type of thing.

schumacher

King of Kings wrote: »

what are you like?

he was defo ordered to do this - imagine the consequences if he said "eh no..." Libya was at war with the UK and Britian at the time.
He should have been freed years ago as a POW.

Also is It ok for Uk and Britian to slaughter arab/muslim civilans but it's not ok when an arab does it in reverse. We don't see many (the odd token jesture when a story gets out) US soliders in jail for crimes against civilians.
What about those airmen in Afghanistan who bombed the wedding and killed many civilans last year?

Surely you are old enough to remember Regan and Thacher bombing Tripoli and killing many innocents. He struck back from his nation and if they treat him as a hero - that's fine with me.

+1. It seems that some countries think that they can bomb innocent civilians and call it war and get away with it. But when other countries do it it suddenly becomes a terroist attack. wtf?
According to msn the man has arrived back in Libya to a heros welcome. Its no surprise really.

nacho libre

hmm what expediencies would be worth incurring the wrath of the Americans

arybvtcw0eolkf

omega42 wrote: »

I think everybody here would say that what he was involved in was atrocious and he deserved to pay for it. but shurly the measure of a society is thet compassion they can show to those that least deserve it.

How is depriving any human access to loved ones at the last moment of their lives a help to anybody

Just my 2 cents please dont flame me for my opinion

Good post, and hard to argue with those words.

Unlike most here, I don't dig in my heels on my side of a debate and refuse to listen to all others.

Probably the best retort in the thread.

.

kumate_champ07

geuro wrote: »

I normally feel that the west needs to show more understanding and compromise when dealing with countries like Libya where there are significant terrorist threats. But really, I can't believe this. To those who say he is not guilty, let there be another appeal. But the man is convicted of 270 murders, and is being let off the hook after only 8 because he has cancer! It's ridiculous.

he will be dead before the end of the appeal.

kumate_champ07

perhaps it was also so his family could spend time with him before he died? he would have been free in another 20+ years

Hes got a death sentence now, he wont be cured. that punishment enough? and what if he is innocent, what a great way to spend your last years of life

donkey balls

Dr Jim swire who lost his daughter in the terrible crime and other victims of Lockabie dont think that al megrahi commited the offence and was scape goated.

the un observer walked out during the trial has anyone bothered to read post 51 there is a lot more to it than just one person planing all of this.

it,s not long ago when people in the uk were convicted for crimes they did not commit as for the appeal that wont be going ahead as he signed away the rights to appeal once being granted early release.

Kalashnikov_Kid

donkey balls wrote: »

Dr Jim swire who lost his daughter in the terrible crime and other victims of Lockabie dont think that al megrahi commited the offence and was scape goated.

the un observer walked out during the trial has anyone bothered to read post 51 there is a lot more to it than just one person planing all of this.

it,s not long ago when people in the uk were convicted for crimes they did not commit as for the appeal that wont be going ahead as he signed away the rights to appeal once being granted early release.

Was just about to post the same myself. Sure the Guildfors Four pleaded guilty and there was plenty of evidence to prove they were behind the bombings :rolleyes:

Which would make me very sceptical of anything that comes out of the Brititish judiciery system

kumate_champ07

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Was just about to post the same myself. Sure the Guildfors Four pleaded guilty and there was plenty of evidence to prove they were behind the bombings :rolleyes:

Which would make me very sceptical of anything that comes out of the Brititish judiciery system

perhaps a possible oscar for daniel day lewis in the future?

Kalashnikov_Kid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

perhaps a possible oscar for daniel day lewis in the future?

You're making reference to In the Name of the Father (a film I havent seen)

What's your point exactly?

kumate_champ07

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

You're making reference to In the Name of the Father (a film I havent seen)

What's your point exactly?

"Im an innocent man!"

kumate_champ07

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

You're making reference to In the Name of the Father (a film I havent seen)

What's your point exactly?

oh and it's a great movie, you should see it

Kalashnikov_Kid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

"Im an innocent man!"

Looks like he was telling the truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilford_Four

Kalashnikov_Kid

Oh and you should read more its real good

Pride Fighter

My name is URL wrote: »

He's widely regarded as innocent, even by the families people who were killed

bit of a scape goat

This.

Lockerbie was a response by Iran (Iranian terrorists, maybe government) for the Americans shooting down an Iranian civilian airliner 6 months previously.

Red Sleeping Beauty

ejmaztec wrote: »

Exports of Scotch Whisky to the US are going to be screwed. They'll be looking to BP for compensation.

How did you come to that conclusion ?

My name is URL wrote: »

He's widely regarded as innocent, even by the families people who were killed

bit of a scape goat

Are you taking the mickey or is this a serious post ?

Jacoby Abundant Magician wrote: »

Good post, and hard to argue with those words.

Unlike most here, I don't dig in my heels on my side of a debate and refuse to listen to all others.

Probably the best retort in the thread.

.

A very fair response

Red Sleeping Beauty

Sky News seemed to neglect to mention on their "LIVE" broadcast of him boarding the plane, that he shook the hands of the people around him.

King of Kings

Jacoby Abundant Magician wrote: »

I know they were, they (the Libyians) were supplying the I.R.A. with arm's shipments - prolonging the misery for the people of Northern Ireland.

perhaps but I'd counter that argument that without the armed struggle the nationalist/catholic side of North Ireland would not have the equality in society they have today.

Jacoby Abundant Magician wrote: »

To believe what you just said, then you must also believe that the I.R.A. should also have been treated as POW's and not the terrorists they were?.

.

I thought they were to some degree - own clothes, their own prison wing. They themselves refer to their prisoners as POWS.

The difference here is this Libyian was acting on state orders not on the orders of a terroriest group.

Imagine some army sniper being ordered into Afghanistan to assassinate a local leader.
How is this killing different from that of Lockbie (with the exception of the scale of it)?

Fratton Fred

donkey balls wrote: »

it,s not long ago when people in the uk were convicted for crimes they did not commit as for the appeal that wont be going ahead as he signed away the rights to appeal once being granted early release.

The big difference being that the Guildford four etc and the Lockerbie bomber were tried under different legal systems. The English legal system and the Scottish one are very different.

Lirange

donkey balls wrote: »

It is entirely possible that he is innocent or perhaps was only a very lowly operative in the whole affair. There are some very plausible accounts from a retired CIA agent, Robert Baer, (see Bruce Wayne above), that show there is reasonable doubt over his conviction........

Smaller text wouldn't go amiss.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The big difference being that the Guildford four etc and the Lockerbie bomber were tried under different legal systems. The English legal system and the Scottish one are very different.

Quite, the Scottish legal system has the ability to do a 'not proven' verdict and they should have done this at least.

This whole episode calls inot question the Scottish legal system

Latchy

I was on a ryanair flight over the irish sea at the same time the plane was blown out of the sky over Lockerbie and remember the day well .
He should not have being released imo but we live in strange times as far as the law and International law is concerned .

irish_bob

Jacoby Abundant Magician wrote: »

Just seen it on SkyNews now..

Now let me get this straight, someone murders over 250 men, women and children.

Then because the murderer is dying of cancer (and fvck 'em tbh), a government feels it must take pity on him and send him home to die in comfort, and probably to a hero's welcome too!.

Fvck that sh*t.

.

if he is indeed guilty , i fully agree that he should rot in jail whether he has cancer or a flesh eating virus

if he is innocent , he should be released , the problem is , he hasnt been cleared so he is being released because hes terminally ill , many people are terminally ill yet were not convicted of mass murder

disgusting

ejmaztec

Alan Rouge wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion ?

The Americans are so pissed off with this "Scottish" decision, there's bound to be some backlash against anything Scottish, whisky being the most well-known.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Americans are so pissed off with this "Scottish" decision, there's bound to be some backlash against anything Scottish, whisky being the most well-known.

I wonder if they will change the name from Scotch to "Liberty Whisky"

Biggins

As expected, he returned home to a hero's welcome. Disgusting to see.
I suspect Scotland will get some sort of backlash by Americans some way or other for his release. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but they won't forget.
It wasn't the Scottish people's fault though. Their government just had a price and it was paid via oil contract deals sealed with news of his eventual release.

My name is URL

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Are you taking the mickey or is this a serious post ?

No, look into the trial and its fallout. Many believe that there were huge miscarriages of justice. Evidence was tampered with, political deals were made behind closed doors prior to the trial, and definitely influenced its outcome.

I'm not saying he had nothing to do with it, I'm sure he did. But he was a cog in the wheel of war at the time.

When the Americans shot down Iran Air Flight 655 they decorated the General that gave the order and the soldiers that carried it out with medals!

But hey, they were in uniform when they killed those innocent civilians, so it's not really murder is it?

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wonder if they will change the name from Scotch to "Liberty Whisky"

No, Liberty's reserved for "Scottish deep-fried, battered, gut-expanding, cholesterol bomb Mars Bars".

And then there's Scotch Freedom Pies.:D

joseph brand

I would feel very angry if it was a straight forward, one man, one bomb story. But I don't believe so. Where are his comrades? He wasn't working alone.

Plus, the CIA have been linked to the Lockerbie bomb. I was told that there were witnesses on board who could have put George W Bush (lovely guy) away for the rest of his life. All of a sudden a plane explodes and he's off the hook????

Anyone know anything about this?

Things aren't always black and white. Only if you just read the papers.

joseph brand

My name is URL wrote: »

No, look into the trial and its fallout. Many believe that there were huge miscarriages of justice. Evidence was tampered with, political deals were made behind closed doors prior to the trial, and definitely influenced its outcome.

I'm not saying he had nothing to do with it, I'm sure he did. But he was a cog in the wheel of war at the time.

When the Americans shot down Iran Air Flight 655 they decorated the General that gave the order and the pilots that carried it out with medals!

But hey, they were in uniform when they killed those innocent civilians, so it's not really murder is it?

Thanks for the link.

Very easy to side with the Americans. They just don't seem dangerous, to us at least. But if you're an Iraqi, these gun-toting Yankie jocks armed to the teeth aren't as peace loving as they seem.

buckieburd

Biggins wrote: »

As expected, he returned home to a hero's welcome. Disgusting to see.
I suspect Scotland will get some sort of backlash by Americans some way or other for his release. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but they won't forget.
It wasn't the Scottish people's fault though. Their government just had a price and it was paid via oil contract deals sealed with news of his eventual release.

I very much doubt there will be any kind of 'backlash' don't you think this is to the benefits of the yanks as well? They are just playing the outrage card to keep the public happy....

There is grave doubts about his conviction, the evidence was very circumstantial, and he was denied a second appeal, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. The English and Yanks are more than happy to let the Scottish take the fall for this.

joseph brand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8211596.stm

There were question marks too over Tony Gauci, a Maltese shopkeeper who was the only man to identify Megrahi.

His evidence was that the Libyan, who he picked out at an identity parade, had bought the clothes at his shop.

But his police statements are inconsistent, and prosecutors failed to tell the defence that shortly before he attended an identity parade, Mr Gauci had seen a magazine article showing a picture of Megrahi, and speculating he might have been involved.

Mr Gauci now lives in Australia, and according to defence claims is believed to have been paid several million dollars by the Americans for his evidence.

ejmaztec

buckieburd wrote: »

I very much doubt there will be any kind of 'backlash' don't you think this is to the benefits of the yanks as well? They are just playing the outrage card to keep the public happy.....

There's bound to be a backlash when Joe Public gets wound up.

buckieburd wrote: »

There is grave doubts about his conviction, the evidence was very circumstantial, and he was denied a second appeal, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. The English and Yanks are more than happy to let the Scottish take the fall for this.

It seems that a lot of Americans commenting on the UK Times website are of the opinion that the British Government is the guilty party, and don't actually consider or realise that Scotland has its own Government and legal system.

buckieburd

ejmaztec wrote: »

There's bound to be a backlash when Joe Public gets wound up.



It seems that a lot of Americans commenting on the UK Times website are of the opinion that the British Government is the guilty party, and don't actually consider or realise that Scotland has its own Government and legal system.

When I said the Yanks and English I meant their governments..

And the American people would want to look in before looking out when judging others!!!

kumate_champ07

the trial was held in holland, did they do it completely by scottish rules?

Red Sleeping Beauty

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Americans are so pissed off with this "Scottish" decision, there's bound to be some backlash against anything Scottish, whisky being the most well-known.

To be honest I wouldn't make fleeting statements like that. The US media sets the agenda and specifically the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/world/europe/22lockerbie.html?_r=1&hp

Scrambled egg

It would have been brilliant if they had of freed him and left a bomb on his plane.

ejmaztec

Alan Rouge wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't make fleeting statements like that. The US media sets the agenda and specifically the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/world/europe/22lockerbie.html?_r=1&hp

I would, and I did, although I wouldn't refer to it as fleeting. We'll see what develops.

dfx-

What was he found guilty of? Was it that they found a part of the radio used to disguise the bomb, traced it to a shop and the owner identified Megrahi as the purchaser? Is that all? :eek:

That's as unsafe a conviction as you can get..particularly to be deemed "The Lockerbie Bomber"..

A Dub in Glasgo

dfx- wrote: »

What was he found guilty of? Was it that they found a part of the radio used to disguise the bomb, traced it to a shop and the owner identified Megrahi as the purchaser? Is that all? :eek:

That's as unsafe a conviction as you can get..particularly to be deemed "The Lockerbie Bomber"..

Yep, have a read at this (from todays Glasgow Herald)

http://img44.imageshack.us/i/p1010024y.jpg/

http://img297.imageshack.us/i/p1010026y.jpg/

Red Sleeping Beauty

Glasgow Herald's usually a bit of a rag imo but good article.

"I am absolutely convinced that if the evidence had come out in front of a Scottish jury of 15 there is abolustely no way he would have been convicted."

A Dub in Glasgo

Why do you say it is usually a bit of a rag?

Red Sleeping Beauty

I take that back. Got it mixed up with a different wan - Evening Times is the tabloid one I was thinking of.

A Dub in Glasgo

They come from the same stable but the Herald is one of the premier newspapers in Scotland.

wildsaffy

Am watching the news and am amazed at the hero's welcome your man received.

What is the real story?

delos

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

the trial was held in holland, did they do it completely by scottish rules?

Yes, the airbase was formally ceded and legally became part of Scotland for the duration of the trial.

I can't remeber 100% but I'm pretty sure that the case was heard by a panel of judges and not a jury which is not the norm in Scotland either

A Dub in Glasgo

delos wrote: »

I can't remeber 100% but I'm pretty sure that the case was heard by a panel of judges and not a jury which is not the norm in Scotland either

Correct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_bombing_trial#Judges

dfx-

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yep, have a read at this (from todays Glasgow Herald)

http://img44.imageshack.us/i/p1010024y.jpg/

http://img297.imageshack.us/i/p1010026y.jpg/

Cheers. A sham conviction..

A dodgy identification at that..he should be free and the judges/lawyers involved should be jailed for 27 years in a Libyan prison.

drakshug

Under Scottish law, which is different from English Law, any prisoner is entitled to early release under compassionate grounds. I'd say being dead in 3 months is ground for compassion. The Scottish parliament had to go to the UK parliament to sanction this but they get the blame whilst Gordon Brown goes silent.
The head of the FBI seems to think that Scotland is under American Law by his comments. Hell, half the American's don't even know where Scotland is. Maybe the Scottish Government should have sanctioned waterboarding? Instead they chose compassion.
Everyone seems to forget that this landed on Lockerbie...............in Scotland.
Us Scots haven't but we know that compassion is a better weapon than aggression. What would have been gained by letting him die another three months from now in Jail? The criticism coming from the USA is a joke given their record of shady dealings. Reminds me of the pot turning to the kettle.............................
As for our Irish cousins posting here. Well let their consciences decide what stance to take.

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Americans are so pissed off with this "Scottish" decision, there's bound to be some backlash against anything Scottish, whisky being the most well-known.

buckieburd wrote: »

I very much doubt there will be any kind of 'backlash' don't you think this is to the benefits of the yanks as well? They are just playing the outrage card to keep the public happy....

Alan Rouge wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't make fleeting statements like that. The US media sets the agenda and specifically the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/world/europe/22lockerbie.html?_r=1&hp

Looks like a backlash:P:P:P

The upside is that Irish tourism might improve, not to mention Irish Whiskey exports.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/6077852/US-urged-to-boycott-Scottish-products-after-Lockerbie-bombers-release.html

US urged to boycott Scottish products after Lockerbie bomber's release

American efforts to mount a boycott of British goods and services are gathering pace over the controversial decision to repatriate Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Al Megrahi.



By Roland Gribben
Published: 9:42PM BST 23 Aug 2009

US citizens are being urged to stop buying items ranging from Scotch whisky to kilts and petrol sold at BP-owned outlets as well as to cancel planned holidays in Britain to register their protest.
Websites are being used by protest groups to whip up support for the boycott, and drinkers are being urged to switch to US, Canadian or Irish whiskeys and switch their holidays to Ireland.

British companies with considerable US business are taking a relaxed view about the likely effect on their business, while appreciating the strength of feeling behind the protests.

The Scotch Whisky Association (SWA) – with £370m worth of export business to the US annually – has been closely monitoring the developments, but feels any action or impact on sales is likely to be short-lived.
However, in some quarters it is felt that the boycott could have a longer life, particularly if British companies benefit from increased trade with Libya.
Campbell Evans, SWA director, said: "We have been faced with other boycotts in the past and found they haven't lasted. We appreciate what lies behind this action. In the heat of the moment it is understandable."
Scotch is the most visible and high-profile element in Scotland's near £3bn a year of exports to the US but tourism is an important contribution to the economy. US tourists are estimated to account for around 14pc of foreign visitors to Scotland and are regarded as the biggest contributors to a £1bn-a-year business.
Diageo, the world's biggest drinks company with 40pc of its operating profits generated in the US, is monitoring developments and so far has not seen any fall off in business. Johnnie Walker is its biggest whisky brand, but rum and tequila brands are more important to it in the market.
The websites make no distinction between the role of the Scottish or British governments in the repatriation decision. "Don't travel to Scotland or do business there (or in the UK in general) and don't buy any British or Scottish products," www.boycottscotland.com tells US citizens.
BP, with its extensive businesses in the US, is singled out by the site because of the highly favourable Libyan oil deal that resulted from an earlier initiative by Tony Blair with Colonel Gaddafi, the Libyan leader. A huge exploration and appraisal programme involving investment of more than £500m has given BP rights to drill for oil and gas in areas as big as Kuwait and Belgium.
The programme is still in its early stages but represents one of BP's most important strategic investments in a country with the most extensive oil reserves in Africa. BAE Systems, the defence giant, is heavily dependant on the US for a growing slice of its business but does not expect to be affected by the boycott.