IFA

westwicklow

Sikamick wrote: »

When are people in our sport going to come together, when are we going to stop the finger pointing and backstabbing.


Sikamick

It seems to me that if the whole population of the country fell into a barrel of tar, we still wouldn't stick together Sikamick!

kakashka

[quote=Grizzly 45;61782922quote=kakashka;61781606

In plain English????:) Nyet Russki ]


Net Russkij.....
Sorry thought you had sussed the name for a minute

Sikamick

Quote [Sikamick] So now you are the new adviser to the FPU do you have a Flag

Quote [rrpc] No Mick, they asked me. So now there is no need for FCP, SSAI or the IFA, you are going to sort it all out, I hope you get it right or you will have to suffer the consequences.

Quote [rrpc] I’ve written a couple of guides to it and also advised the Garda FPU on its shortcomings. As above.

Quote [rrpc] Still banging that same old drum of everyone all getting together under one banner (yours presumably) I see. Not really, I’m too old.

Quote [rrpc] The most profound effect on the firearms legislation was and always will be from people with big mouths and nothing between their ears. So if someone like me opens his mouth were at fault and if someone from the IFA doesn’t open their mouth their at fault, interesting.

Are you annoyed at the IFA in case the steal your glory?

Good night for now.
Sikamick

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[quote=kakashka;61781606

In plain English????:) Nyet Russki




I see,,so because a totally different industry gets done.That entitles another to demand money off the EU??? Great ,if the Aran jumper makers of Ireland get cut to bits by cheap imported products,Will the IFA demand money off Brussles for them???



But has the worst PR,and the worst image.Never seen this kind of begrudgery to farmers anywhere else in the World bar here in Ireland.
So there must be somthing more than the std Irish begrudgery too in it.
Also,it is the most heavily subsidised,[or was,thats going East now].So it is now time to stand on the two feet and be able to produce as good as the rest of the EU at EU prices.


As is every other industry in the EU from Security to Farming to making knitting needles...
Every industry is heavily regulated in the EU.What makes the Irish farming industry the exception to the rule,or more sympathy????


Righttttt....No more silage runoffs or slurry run offs into local drinking water then??Over use of nitrates doing in the ground water?


No,more common sense to see that there is more to life than dedicating it to the demands of a 150 herd of dairy cattle,the whims of markets and weather,not to mind banks,beuracrats and general misery.Ag college is a great eye opener into the industry,[was at the time another grant spinner,]not to mind living it,having the running of a farm dumped on you when you are 18while you are trying to do the leaving as well.
The school of life and very hard knocks a much better education.So please dont try this old chestnut of lack of intrest,laziness ,etc etc,heard it all before. Yes it is a christless ,thankless occupation,if you are below a certain land and income threshold.But that is no excuse to spend your entire life in misery either,bewailing the fact to all and sundry and expecting sympathy..

Of course there is that,been there done it,and why I quit it.

Anyway,this is more OT.We are moaning about the IFA not paying attention on the FCP,[proably because as I said,there was no way of making money or getting grants out of it:rolleyes:] not the Irish farmer.

Yes OT and i cant multi quote or type quickly so we'll be sticking to our own opinions on above matters
As i said before i think the IFA could have had enough influenced to change things,for better or worse i do not know but they didnt bother
only shouting now for show,were members consulted or informed at ANY stage???i doubt it

Sikamick

Birr (County Offaly)Ireland
Farmers Complain of Red Tape in Ireland's Newly Tightened Gun Law 2,000 signed a petition circulated at the Irish Game and Country Fair in Birr.


http://www.independent.ie/farming/news- ... 68323.html

FARMERS have called on Justice Minister Dermot Ahern to rethink gun laws that have just been introduced.
No new handgun licences will be issued under the legislation, with limited exceptions for Olympic shooting sports.
A Garda superintendent can now inquire into the medical, including mental, health of an applicant.

Those seeking licences will need to have character references and proof of having installed secure storage for their guns.

IFA countryside chairman David Wilkinson said all gun owners are required to invest a huge amount of time satisfying complex and confusing red tape requirements.

"This new system is a logistical nightmare which does not recognise the outstanding record of those who have legally held firearms in this country in the past.

"IFA Countryside has been inundated with complaints from worried members who are seriously considering abandoning the sport altogether," he said.

Mr Wilkinson said the licensing system should aim to keep firearms out of the hands of undesirables while making it user friendly for legal users.

"IFA Countryside were at no point, during the firearms’ consultative panels meetings, informed that red tape of this degree was going to be introduced," he said.

Ireland East MEP Nessa Childers claimed the issue affected more than 236,000 lawful individuals during the recent elections.

She said there was an urgent need for a single, comprehensive, updated code on firearms to fight gun crime but the bill was too reactionary and showed a lack of foresight.

"There is no evidence to show that legally held guns have been used in the commission of any crime. I am, of course, in favour of bringing the law up to date in the matter of licensing of firearms, their security and their use.

"I am not in favour, however, of measures purportedly introduced to tackle crime being used instead to put legitimate sports clubs out of business."

Mr Ahern repeatedly stated, however, that the legislation was designed to halt the emergence of a gun culture in Ireland.

He disclosed that there are 1,800 legal handguns that could exceed 4,000 in three years time and this was unacceptable. "While I know the vast majority of licensed gun owners behave responsibly, my paramount concern must be the protection of the public, particularly against the background of the level of gun crime which is taking place."



This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Saturday, August 22, 2009


Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

So now there is no need for FCP, SSAI or the IFA, you are going to sort it all out, I hope you get it right or you will have to suffer the consequences.

If you say so Mick, you're the expert on who should be running things

sikamick wrote:

So if someone like me opens his mouth were at fault and if someone from the IFA doesn’t open their mouth their at fault, interesting.

That comment wasn't directed at you.

Are you annoyed at the IFA in case the steal your glory?

You're the one who seems to dislike anyone else getting involved. It would also be much more instructive and constructive if you didn't spend your time on here having a go at me at every opportunity. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy, but when you start dredging around the kindergarten floor looking for insults the kids left behind, it isn't very enlightening.

Oh, and thanks for making an attempt at using the quote system :rolleyes:

rrpc

By the way, it's actually worth looking at the original brief from the FCP shooting sports members in March 2008 here.

Although it's almost 18 months ago, there's quite a lot of stuff covered in that briefing that has come to pass and although some of the finer details have changed, the main thrust hasn't.

It's also worth having a look at who issued it Mick

Especially when you read the press release that you kindly posted above.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

By the way, it's actually worth looking at the original brief from the FCP shooting sports members in March 2008 here.

Although it's almost 18 months ago, there's quite a lot of stuff covered in that briefing that has come to pass and although some of the finer details have changed, the main thrust hasn't.

It's also worth having a look at who issued it Mick

Especially when you read the press release that you kindly posted above.

_________________________________________________________________

ISSUED JOINTLY BY THE ASSOCIATIONS LISTED IN THE APPENDIX TO THIS BRIEF. Meaning all in the appendix, correct me if I’m wrong.

The work of the Firearms Consultative Panel has been making substantial progress. All shooting associations have been taking a very active part and there can be no argument but that every shooting representative has argued passionately for the cause of shooters and they continue to do so as there is still much to be achieved. If there was one of the group having a snooze at the wheel I think that was the time to wake them up, but it does say all shooting Associations have been taking an active part.:rolleyes:

1.GUIDELINES:

Guidelines for the administration of the firearms licensing code will shortly be agreed with significant input and change from the shooting associations. It is envisaged that the completed document will be widely available on websites and in other public areas. The Garda response to the input of the shooting associations is now back with the shooting associations for consideration. (Guidelines) No disrespect rrpc but we are still waiting.

And now the FPU is contacting you and others individually to get guidance, why haven’t they called an FCP meeting and try and sort it out there

Re your comment that you are entitled to your opinion, you are quite right and I and others that use this forum are entitled to our opinions, people referring to any comments that I put up as sh*it sti**ing is a bit childish because we are of differing opinions.


Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

ISSUED JOINTLY BY THE ASSOCIATIONS LISTED IN THE APPENDIX TO THIS BRIEF. Meaning all in the appendix, correct me if I’m wrong.

My point precisely. People complaining that 'they didn't know' about this stuff must have been asleep.

If there was one of the group having a snooze at the wheel I think that was the time to wake them up, but it does say all shooting Associations have been taking an active part.:rolleyes:

You can agree a statement, you can't make people publish it. It appears you can't even get them to read it

Guidelines for the administration of the firearms licensing code will shortly be agreed with significant input and change from the shooting associations. It is envisaged that the completed document will be widely available on websites and in other public areas. The Garda response to the input of the shooting associations is now back with the shooting associations for consideration. (Guidelines) No disrespect rrpc but we are still waiting.

I always laugh when people say 'no offence' or 'no disrespect' because it always means the exact opposite. :rolleyes:. As usual though Mick, this stuff has to be spelled out for you: If the FCP were finished with the guidelines back in March 2008, the hold up isn't their fault is it? And besides, they're the Commissioner's guidelines, not the shooting bodies guidelines.

And now the FPU is contacting you and others individually to get guidance, why haven’t they called an FCP meeting and try and sort it out there

That's not a question I can answer. Perhaps they needed a quick response and calling a meeting and collating the data would have taken too long. They've updated their FAQ as a result, so it's obviously been of some use.

Re your comment that you are entitled to your opinion, you are quite right and I and others that use this forum are entitled to our opinions, people referring to any comments that I put up as sh*it sti**ing is a bit childish because we are of differing opinions.

Stop attributing other people's posts to me please.

And yes of course Mick, you're also entitled to your opinion. But if your opinion is derived from misapprehension, chinese whispers, inability to understand the issues, scuttlebutt or gossip, I'm also entitled to attempt to put you right.

And no offence OK?

TMC121

This is really beggers belief.
The FPU are looking to individuals / groups for guidelines now nearly 5 weeks into the extensions with the first round of dates up on the 31st Oct.
The interest of all shooting sports are on the table and have been since the first mutated comments on this forum re firearms licensing.

The shooting sports are there to be enjoyed, not made into a complicated web of who did what, how, where or when! The IFA have made a statement re the complicated nature of the new licensing form. If they knew or didn't know about the FAC1's complicated nature is not relevant now as they are the representativeness for the farming community and believe it should be changed.

If you agree or disagree with that, your choice, however from reading the postings on this form and talking to persons dealing with licensing applications its obvious something will have to be done. I can only hope that this something will take all the shooting sports into account and not just one facet.

rrpc

TMC121 wrote: »

This is really beggers belief.
The FPU are looking to individuals / groups for guidelines now nearly 5 weeks into the extensions with the first round of dates up on the 31st Oct.
The interest of all shooting sports are on the table and have been since the first mutated comments on this forum re firearms licensing.

You may be confusing the Commissioner's guidelines with guidance on the new form. There are well documented issues with the form that some have been asked to help with and did so. It appears that the form won't change in the short term due to the confusion that would arise, but that the Gardai will attempt to deal with any of the issues arising through their FAQ.

The shooting sports are there to be enjoyed, not made into a complicated web of who did what, how, where or when! The IFA have made a statement re the complicated nature of the new licensing form. If they knew or didn't know about the FAC1's complicated nature is not relevant now as they are the representativeness for the farming community and believe it should be changed.

The IFA's problems are more fundamental than with just the form, and unfortunately they are five years too late with their input. Even had they made some comment as late as May of this year there was a possibility that their weight may have mitigated some of the more egregious issues with the firearms act amendments. That they are doing so now, is as much use as a chocolate fireguard because the legislation is passed, commenced and being imnplemented.

What people don't seem to realise is that the form is merely a reflection of the underlying legislation.

If you agree or disagree with that, your choice, however from reading the postings on this form and talking to persons dealing with licensing applications its obvious something will have to be done. I can only hope that this something will take all the shooting sports into account and not just one facet.

Too late

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

You may be confusing the Commissioner's guidelines with guidance on the new form. There are well documented issues with the form that some have been asked to help with and did so. It appears that the form won't change in the short term due to the confusion that would arise, but that the Gardai will attempt to deal with any of the issues arising through their FAQ.

The IFA's problems are more fundamental than with just the form, and unfortunately they are five years too late with their input. Even had they made some comment as late as May of this year there was a possibility that their weight may have mitigated some of the more egregious issues with the firearms act amendments. That they are doing so now, is as much use as a chocolate fireguard because the legislation is passed, commenced and being imnplemented.

What people don't seem to realise is that the form is merely a reflection of the underlying legislation.


Too late

Question for the Rep: If so why are they the FPU now asking yours and other individuals advice

Sikamick

TMC121

FO are stacking completed application forms up on the desks with no guidelines from the Commissioner re how to process them and Individuals / group have been contacted / submitted guides to the FPU re the new form and it's short comings, not how to deal with the licensing. Interesting!

The IFA's problems are more fundamental than with just the forms

More fundamental? Please enlighten us.

To late, maybe for this process but any legislation can be amended or removed. It's not set in stone.

PJ Hunter

form can't be changed.B*ox cause more confusion:eek: Bx8


2,000 signed the petition circulated at the Irish game and country fair. the great unwashed say no to the new application form. how many people shooting olympic target shooting, is it more than farmers and clay shotgunners? democracy rules.

2.000+ say scrap the form. do the lads keep fixing the application when the guidelines not issued still have to be studied for errors before been recommended. are they to keep everyone informed, keep us up to date unlike the fcp? they "really had no influence over the current state of things related to firearms licensing.

aran jumper makers bailing out the farmers, the "barr tribunal findings have driven the current form". medical records. what if i dont want the local gp telling the local station I've
got the p8x

.1 first question to the new team. renewing or applying in three years time?







The most profound effect on the firearms legislation was and always will be from people with big mouths and nothing between their ears. yup a di dee da.

Sikamick

PJ the only thing the Garda need to know is your mental state, not if your penis is falling off.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Question for the Rep: If so why are they the FPU now asking yours and other individuals advice
Sikamick

I'm not sure what your question is addressing Mick, but if it's about the form, the question was what are the issues and are there any that they've missed.

cavan shooter

So why are IFA up in arms about the form???

Why are people getting so upset about having to give the name of your Doctor to the gardai, it makes sense. (do you not do this on driving licences)

They are getting upset because they have to store their firearms securely:eek: Its a laugh what is being asked of a single shotgun owner

Why are people up in arms having to give reasons why they need the fire arm? Lads, That question makes sense, No one has the right to have a fire arm in ireland

Is it not a common sense question regarding a restricted firearm being asked to detail why you need this type and why a different type couldnt do the same thing??

The forms are there as is the secure storage comply, fill out the form and move on.

It was said already if IFA wanted to do something useful, they should have got more involved.

rrpc

TMC121 wrote: »

FO are stacking completed application forms up on the desks with no guidelines from the Commissioner re how to process them and Individuals / group have been contacted / submitted guides to the FPU re the new form and it's short comings, not how to deal with the licensing. Interesting!

What's your point?

The IFA's problems are more fundamental than with just the forms More fundamental? Please enlighten us.

Read the IFA statement, they have problems with the legislation itself. The form is just a manifestation of the problems:

"A Garda superintendent can now inquire into the medical, including mental, health of an applicant.

Those seeking licences will need to have character references and proof of having installed secure storage for their guns. "

This stuff was all in the 2006 CJA and as DMZ said, a fair amount was in the report of the Barr tribunal.

To late, maybe for this process but any legislation can be amended or removed. It's not set in stone.

It may as well be under the current Minister.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not sure what your question is addressing Mick, but if it's about the form, the question was what are the issues and are there any that they've missed.

Quote [rrpc] To Late.

Quote[Sikamick] Question for the Rep: If so why are they the FPU now asking yours and other individuals advice
Sikamick

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

form can't be changed.B*ox cause more confusion:eek: Bx8

2,000 signed the petition circulated at the Irish game and country fair. the great unwashed say no to the new application form. how many people shooting olympic target shooting, is it more than farmers and clay shotgunners? democracy rules.

PJ, this is absolutely nothing to do with what form of shooting you do. This is about the legislation itself. Have you all just woken up to the stuff we've been discussing ad nauseum on this forum for five frickin years?

2.000+ say scrap the form. do the lads keep fixing the application when the guidelines not issued still have to be studied for errors before been recommended. are they to keep everyone informed, keep us up to date unlike the fcp? they "really had no influence over the current state of things related to firearms licensing.

You were kept up to date and just didn't bother to read the stuff. It's as simple as that.

TMC121

Point, Individuals / groups are being drafted in to deal with the short comings of a form but are not being asked to look at the guidelines for licensing? Applications are sacking up and extensions are running out.

Ministers can change, policy can change and legislation can be changed.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote [rrpc] To Late.

Quote[Sikamick] Question for the Rep: If so why are they the FPU now asking yours and other individuals advice
Sikamick

Too late to change the legislation that the form is based on. Is that clear enough for you?

The form can be explained better, but as all the questions on the form relate to requirements under the firearms acts, the best that can be possibly added to the form is the word 'please' after every question. :rolleyes:

You read my post out of context with the quote from the previous poster. You needed to read the last two paragraphs. In fact Mick you just need to read before you type because I keep answering the same question over and over again.

rrpc

TMC121 wrote: »

Point, Individuals / groups are being drafted in to deal with the short comings of a form but are not being asked to look at the guidelines for licensing? Applications are sacking up and extensions are running out.

They are the Commissioner's guidelines.

It's more helpful in any case to read the explanatory documents that have been posted here and on other websites. There are some issues that the Commissioners guidelines will help with but the vast majority of applicants will be able to fill their forms out with the assistance of those guides and the Garda FAQ.

Ministers can change, policy can change and legislation can be changed.

Indeed. Just not now.

rrpc

Just to forestall any further questions as to where the 'red tape' came from, here's exerpts from Section 4 of the firearms act as inserted by section 32 of the criminal justice act 2006, first published as a bill in late 2004, (five years ago).

4(2) The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—

...
(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,
(e) where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,
(f) has complied with subsection (3),
(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and

and

4(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—
(a) proof of identity,
(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,
(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and
(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.

So it all didn't just 'appear' on a form. :rolleyes:

TMC121

To the common man on the street not prvi to this board or not IT literate to use a web-site, it did all just appear on the form.
We know the CJB and Misc bill brought forward all this and all our submissions to various Government departments and letters to local TD's failed to stop this legislation from being enacted in it's current form.

Now the biggest group representing people who own firearms has been informed by its members of the impact that this new legislation will have on them.
Late or not, you have a lobby of that size coming in and recommending changes.
Is the Government willing to run the risk of not listening to them?

BornToKill

TMC121 wrote: »

Now the biggest group representing people who own firearms has been informed by its members of the impact that this new legislation will have on them. Late or not, you have a lobby of that size coming in and recommending changes.

That group were asked to nominate a representative to the FCP and they sat on it from the very beginning. It shouldn't need a couple of thousand signatures in Birr to bring to their attention things they were in on from the start. It is late, I'd say way too late.

Maybe if they had made a greater effort to inform their members of what was coming and why, there wouldn't be this situation now at all.

TMC121

The point is they are in and lobbying for change.
They may cause a rethink or not and the signatures they collected in Birr where after they made the statement.

I agree, they where on the FCP panel and had oppertuinities then. They may have failed to register the impact of the legislation on there members at that time but it clearly shows democracy in action when members of the association lobbied there repesentivates and set wheels in motion.

If you believe this legislation needs to be changed, stand behind them. If you believe the legislation to be expectable then fine.
From the posts on this thread people want this legislation revisited. The IFA lobbying the Government might just give us the chance to do so.

rrpc

TMC121 wrote: »

If you believe this legislation needs to be changed, stand behind them. If you believe the legislation to be expectable then fine.
From the posts on this thread people want this legislation revisited. The IFA lobbying the Government might just give us the chance to do so.

What exactly do you think the IFA want changed?

Sparks

TMC and the others, RRPC and BTK are correct here. The IFA knew this stuff was coming down the pipe for five years. They did nothing to inform their membership of this. Their actions now have sweet fanny adams to do with the best interests of their members. All that they are doing is looking for something, anything that their members don't like (and the newer that something is, the better) and protesting against it. And they're only doing that becuase they're afraid that their members won't follow the IFA pledge that all the farmers would vote for Lisbon in a month or so.

That's it, that's all. There's no sense of camaraderie or all-shooters-standing-together in this, it's pure and utter save-your-arse politics because the IFA promised the Government something and are afraid they can't deliver.

And while I'd say all that didn't matter much if we had something to gain from it, in this case we don't. The Minister isn't about to back down publicy with the entire electorate looking for FF blood on the walls; the legislation couldn't be changed in time to benefit any of the target shooting community who've been badly kicked in the head by this new legislation; and the IFA have about as much intent of lobbying for the good of all shooters as the fox has of looking out for the best interest of the chickens.

If the IFA got its ideal outcome here, anyone who owned a single shotgun wouldn't need to licence it, and could do whatever they wanted with it, while anyone who wanted to go target shooting could, for all they care, be required to undergo a six-month psychiatric evaluation and get 24hr security guards to look after their air pistol.

I mean, ask yourself this - if the IFA was so worked up over its members' firearms stuff, why the hell didn't they do a damn thing in the last five years to try to forestall the worst of the crud we're now hip-deep in?

TMC121

Ask the IFA what do they want changed.

What do you think it needs to changed?
Is the IFA agenda clashing with other interest groups?

I believe in common sense and a workable format.
Do you think this legislation is workable. Are we heading for a Canadian style disaster with thousands of unlicensed firearms?