Irish Open 2010 - Structure

doke · 25-08-2009 4:11pm

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Interesting question. Some rebuys work like that - you can rebuy straight away and I always do so I'd pay the €3000.

Even better are tournaments where you can rebuy or add on at a lower cost per chip than the initial buyin. That gives the better players not only more chips to play with, but also means increased equity due to some players not taking the additional chips.

LuckyLloyd · 25-08-2009 4:14pm

Paul Spillane wrote: »

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

You shouldn't buy in if you don't consider yourself to have an edge over the field. If you do assume an edge, then you should pick option A every time.

DAMO72 · 25-08-2009 4:42pm

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Can i take option C please , 20,000 chips €1500:D:D:D

Paul Spillane · 25-08-2009 6:04pm

doke wrote: »

Interesting question. Some rebuys work like that - you can rebuy straight away and I always do so I'd pay the €3000.

Even better are tournaments where you can rebuy or add on at a lower cost per chip than the initial buyin. That gives the better players not only more chips to play with, but also means increased equity due to some players not taking the additional chips.

Should have said, i based the question on a freezeout.

corkie123 · 25-08-2009 10:37pm

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

more chips = more edge for the better players

:D good response

a lot of the good players cant see that lol

as for me i want 20k at least for my 3.5k to play tourie like this

smoothcall · 26-08-2009 2:52am

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

Paul Spillane · 26-08-2009 2:45pm

smoothcall wrote: »

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

I would wait and see what the majority did and then do the opposite. If i was unable to find out i defo pay 1,500 for 10k chips; perversly i'm sure i could argue either way as to what's the mathmatically optimum stratedgy.

Ollieboy · 26-08-2009 3:26pm

smoothcall wrote: »

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

You always should rebuy even if nobody else does for the following reasons that I can think of straight away:

1. you can put pressure on smaller stacks you might not be willing to rebuy or overvalue there chips.
2. you can afford to see more flops.
3. if you get a monster hand and run it into another person who as also top up, than you can have a monster stack when the blinds are low.
4. People don't like to play against a bigger stack and you can afford to defend bb more easily.

Playing any rebuy event and not taking the rebuy option and top up is madness and makes no sense. The more chips you have the more easier it should be too force your edge.

5Aces · 23-09-2009 9:51pm

what is the way to assess the value of a tournament strucure when some have antes, progressive levels, ect.

Grafter · 24-09-2009 12:29am

The last 2 pages confirm that both players and rival tourney organisers understand why the final table and more importantly the top three of the last few years of the Irish Open has turned out as it has. The best structure doesn't always produce the ideal commercial result. (No offence to Marty, but his after a deal win skews the results towards the commercial and away from the reality)

Paddy Power surely want as many as possible of their regular players/qualifiers to make the cash as possible and in an ideal world, beat a pro or better still another next door type to the title.

A turbo structure or indeed a deepstack structure from the start is no good as pros know how to play both better, so the advantage for the organiser is with a smallish starting stack that keeps the scaredy nitty qualifier out of pots and so lasting longer.

By introducing the extra levels scaredy nitty qualifier player can wait longer to ship with a good hand and will be allin less often but with better odds so the sponsors have better odds of a nice punter story.

5Aces · 24-09-2009 2:18am

lol Devious!

OasisKid · 25-09-2009 4:01pm

Just wondering but could boylepoker not put on an event similiar to the irish open?

5Aces · 25-09-2009 6:22pm

id say the vast majority of money made on poker sites come from nl25, nl50 and $5 and $10 tournaments... boyles have it right with the IPO

fab-frankie · 04-01-2010 2:16am

Simple fact is for a €3,500 buyin into a prestigious tourney such as the IO people expect a similar if not better structure than what they are accustomed to.
It would be great to see the starting stack increased!![/QUOTE]

agree totally with this, i'm planning on playing this event (first time):rolleyes:. but would be more comfortable with a 15k/20k$ starting stack.:(

spm1982 · 05-01-2010 5:20am

DAMO72 wrote: »

Hi Noel , Im probably not the right person to comment on this as i haven't played an open yet. While Its great to see the blinds increase and the extra levels added , i think it would be a lot more appealing to punters to get the starting stack increased also. Just my opinion and i do hope to play in 2010

im a massive fan of your game damo and if u ever need staking just get back to me think this can be your breakout year

Norwich Fan Rob · 05-01-2010 5:41am

i too will be playing this years IO, again, great to see the structure changes, will make it a much better game in the latter half, when it really matters.
I also agree with the majority that a bigger stack to start would help, it makes a big diff if u have 10 or 15k if u lose a 4-5k pot early on, which can easily happen. Personally, my record is vastly superior in 15k starting stack events than 10k, but hopefully i can put this right this time.
Im sure Noel and pp have done all they can to retify this starting stack situation, but i believe there are other people involved, who, lets just say, may be more old school and are reluctant to move away from the 10k starting stack.
Either way, im sure it will be a great event.

DAMO72 · 05-01-2010 11:46am

spm1982 wrote: »

im a massive fan of your game damo and if u ever need staking just get back to me think this can be your breakout year

You know i think your right...:D. I will see if i can go it alone for a while 1st.
Thanks for the kind offer anyway and if you think you might need coaching to bring your own game up to scratch then get back to me

philcassidy · 05-01-2010 1:52pm

DAMO72 wrote: »

You know i think your right...:D. I will see if i can go it alone for a while 1st.
Thanks for the kind offer anyway and if you think you might need coaching to bring your own game up to scratch then get back to me

are you multi accounting again damo:D:D:D

gorrrr72 · 05-01-2010 2:02pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote: »

i too will be playing this years IO, again, great to see the structure changes, will make it a much better game in the latter half, when it really matters.
I also agree with the majority that a bigger stack to start would help, it makes a big diff if u have 10 or 15k if u lose a 4-5k pot early on, which can easily happen. Personally, my record is vastly superior in 15k starting stack events than 10k, but hopefully i can put this right this time.
Im sure Noel and pp have done all they can to retify this starting stack situation, but i believe there are other people involved, who, lets just say, may be more old school and are reluctant to move away from the 10k starting stack.
Either way, im sure it will be a great event.

Yeah, I was sitting at the same table as you and Mr old school when this was being discussed in Citywest at the TEAMCOP and he didn't come up with one single justification for not increasing the starting stack. And everyone at the table agreed it is the way to go. But I guess we all just don't understand tournament poker structures the way he does:rolleyes:. I mean he has been around forever so it must mean he knows what's best.

DAMO72 · 05-01-2010 5:21pm

philcassidy wrote: »

are you multi accounting again damo:D:D:D

No , your just jealous cos i have a secret admirerer and all you have is bad beat stories ,:p Pllllllphhhhhh!:p:eek:

fab-frankie · 05-01-2010 10:27pm

DAMO72 wrote: »

No , your just jealous cos i have a secret admirerer and all you have is bad beat stories ,:p Pllllllphhhhhh!:p:eek:

i'll stake the 2 of u in the super sat, (1 rebuy only) at a 65% return on any winnings. :P:P:P:P:P:P
if i go and play this event and there is 10k on the table in fount of me, i'll fire 7k all around the room, and push my 3k stack all in every hand as a protest!!!:p:p:p:p:p

DAMO72 · 05-01-2010 10:30pm

fab-frankie wrote: »

i'll stake the 2 of u in the super sat, (1 rebuy only) at a 65% return on any winnings. :P:P:P:P:P:P
if i go and play this event and there is 10k on the table in fount of me, i'll fire 7k all around the room, and push my 3k stack all in every hand as a protest!!!:p:p:p:p:p

LOL , you must protest at a lot of tournaments:D:p:p:p

Recon20k · 06-01-2010 6:27pm

double the starting stack please

The Clamper · 07-01-2010 12:04am

Hi Noel

great to see this being posted as a super suggested structure, always nice to see organisors not just paying liupservice to what players are saying and actually doing something about it

just as an aside really, have you got the date of the event tied down yet ?

also my tuppence worth, the starting stack can be whatever you like, there was a time when a starting stack of 10k was reserved for the main wsop event
the size of the stack will determine how one decides to play the event, however i do subscribe to the idea that 10k gives you more room for scope on one's strategy

having said all that, i will probably just either donk them off or play so loose that i donk them off, basicly donking whatever amount you give us, large or small, the only difference is with a larger stack, that could take longer

good luck with the event

Derek
incidentally
what odds would i get on making it thru the 1st level
or
the 1st break
i need to know the size of the starting stack before placing a bet

BigCityBanker · 07-01-2010 12:08am

April 2nd - 5th

www.irishpokeropen.com

fab-frankie · 07-01-2010 4:40am

DAMO72 wrote: »

LOL , you must protest at a lot of tournaments:D:p:p:p

tats phil u eejet, i'd say u could sell a % of urself to that douglas lad and u do the same for him in the wsop

:eek::rolleyes:;):D:D:D

philcassidy · 07-01-2010 6:39pm

fab-frankie wrote: »

tats phil u eejet, i'd say u could sell a % of urself to that douglas lad and u do the same for him in the wsop:eek::rolleyes:;):D:D:D

listen that was a one off me tossing the table:D
although it has crossed my mind a few times recently

"i knew he had nothing, but what was i beating franky??"

:D:D:D

The Clamper · 07-01-2010 11:55pm

THANKS
DEREK

gorrrr72 · 08-01-2010 2:24am

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Less chips longer clock means more play when it matters. It's that simple.

Who cares about the numptys who want 20k so they can sit for ten hours and say they went deep in the Irish open. The best tournaments I've played have been in Vegas where almost all are small stack long clock.

Drop the starting stack to 8k and remove the 25-50 and 75-150 level and the players who get deep will see the benefits

So start on 50/100 and go to 100/200.
This is just dumb.
We are talking about a game of poker here not bingo. Your talking about a totaly different game.
If you truly understood deepstack poker where you thought about what decisions you had to make on every street you wouldn't have came up with that statement.
You are talking about a game with no play after level 1 with a buy in of €3500. If you want to kill a tournament that's the way to go.

RichieLawlor · 08-01-2010 7:39pm

gorrrr72 wrote: »

So start on 50/100 and go to 100/200.
This is just dumb.
We are talking about a game of poker here not bingo. Your talking about a totaly different game.
If you truly understood deepstack poker where you thought about what decisions you had to make on every street you wouldn't have came up with that statement.
You are talking about a game with no play after level 1 with a buy in of €3500. If you want to kill a tournament that's the way to go.

The above bolded statements show exactly how little you know tbh.

Oh i know all you 'goodplayers' want loads of chips and 4 hour levels ect, but you lot are the same guys who sit for 3 levels find Aces, double up, sit for another ten levels find Aces and double up and then proclaim how well you played. Also the same lads who whinge when there AA is cracked by small suited connectors. Its quite easy for the 'fish' to play against these types.

Secondly, The most important part of a tournament is the first few levels right, No ldo, the important part is to have play when deep into an event. Hence my idea, which is employed in a lot of vegas cardroons and beyond. Less chips and a faster clock in the early levels mean a faster rate of attrition, which in turn means a larger average stack at the business end of a tournament. Who wants to sit for 2 days and bust out on the money bubble flipping for your stack because there is no other option. This happens in most of these 'deepstack' events in ireland.

I know your probably comparing most events to that 2hr clock Poker Room game. Whilst a great tournament was nonsensical in that for a 200 buy there were 3 full days of play for a 3k 1st prize. Madness, i enjoyed it also but never again will i play an event like that with such a small buyin.

So in summary, your post is nonsense

gorrrr72 · 08-01-2010 10:15pm

RichieLawlor wrote: »

The above bolded statements show exactly how little you know tbh.

Oh i know all you 'goodplayers' want loads of chips and 4 hour levels ect, but you lot are the same guys who sit for 3 levels find Aces, double up, sit for another ten levels find Aces and double up and then proclaim how well you played. Also the same lads who whinge when there AA is cracked by small suited connectors. Its quite easy for the 'fish' to play against these types.

Secondly, The most important part of a tournament is the first few levels right, No ldo, the important part is to have play when deep into an event. Hence my idea, which is employed in a lot of vegas cardroons and beyond. Less chips and a faster clock in the early levels mean a faster rate of attrition, which in turn means a larger average stack at the business end of a tournament. Who wants to sit for 2 days and bust out on the money bubble flipping for your stack because there is no other option. This happens in most of these 'deepstack' events in ireland.

I know your probably comparing most events to that 2hr clock Poker Room game. Whilst a great tournament was nonsensical in that for a 200 buy there were 3 full days of play for a 3k 1st prize. Madness, i enjoyed it also but never again will i play an event like that with such a small buyin.

So in summary, your post is nonsense

Hi Richie,
I probably had too much g&t when I wrote that post. It was directed at the organizers of the IO because they are looking for opinions on their structural changes.
Although I do commend them on their changes I still maintain that a deeper stacked tournament makes the cream rise to the top.

Now I don't mind playing crapshooty early on in lower buy-ins tournaments, but to fork out €3500 I would hope to be able to withstand the odd bad beat/mistake and still be able to play poker.

To answer a couple of your comments above: Anyone who doubles up the tighty in a deepstack tournament when he obviously has aces is an idiot.

Faster rate of attrition is not to make more play later in Vegas casinos, It's to knock out as many players as possible so they can keep gambling. Do you really think they care about value/structure. This is Vegas, they thrive on offering the easiest way to separate a punter from his money, not to keep him occupied in a poker tournament for 3 days.

I know what you are saying about the Poker Room event and I agree with you on that. I wouldn't play it again unless it was €500 minimum buy-in.

For the record I never won any big pots with big pairs in that tournament. In fact I got aces twice and kings once in the whole tournament. In the KK hand I lost 10k late on day 1 where I had a decision for my tournament but got away from it. In the aces hands, 1)Raise and take it. 2) I had a decision on every street against Lorcan on the final table but won the hand.

When you have a small stack your decisions are a lot easier, you move all in with a wide range of hands. If I had a stack of 20 big blinds, and someone raised the pot, I would move all in with A-K, Q-Q, or J-J and take my chances. If I had 100 big blinds, I would be more likely to only call, especially if I had position on my opponent. If I was reraising here instead of just calling, for the most part it would be because I was on a semibluff.

It is easy to see that the deepstacked game has much more skill in it than simply deciding whether to go all in with a short stack

bigbadpat · 20-01-2010 1:09am

Paddy Power Poker is being a bit harsh on the ladies as they state on their website via the link

http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/index.php/tournaments/irishopen

Irish Open 2010: Full Schedule

Sunday 4th April 3 pm Ladies NLH Championship
Buy-In €300 + Reg €300 :eek: :eek:

Either that or someone has taken their eye off the ball

once again !!

bigbadpat · 20-01-2010 3:07pm

Thanks to ionapaul the errors on the web page

http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/index.php/tournaments/irishopen

in respect of the Irish Open 2010: Full Schedule have now been corrected,:D