Should I waste my time ?

Liam Byrne

Got an enquiry today from someone who wants a website, including a CMS.

During the discussion, she mentioned that someone had told her it could be done for €300 :eek:

Now, even if you assume that you will have 100% work every single day and drop your prices to €200 per day, there is absolutely NO chance of putting together a decent site within a day and a half!

Maybe if there was a VERY specific and decent head-start for the look of the site, and there were no interesting/professional design features, and all the content and images were supplied in an organised manner, and the spec meant that it was bog-standard and had nothing that really needed testing cross-browser, then MAYBE you could put something together in that timeframe, but meeting a client, offering suggestions, writing a spec, building a decent template, adding the content, giving it a decent chance at SEO, installing and configuring a CMS, etc ?

Surely a basic-but-decent site takes a MINIMUM of 4 - 5 days, start to finish ?

Should I even bother to put together a quote, or is this someone who will never see the value in having a proper website ?

Pixelcraft

It depends, you'll usually get a feel off them from their correspondence. I often get people coming back saying X will do it for X euro, I explain why I can't, and what they will most likely be getting by going for the cheaper option, and often they'll go with me, even though they have a cheaper quote.

It's all about explaining what they're going to get. If the client simply sees a website as an off the shelf product, with no difference between them then they're always going to go for the cheapest option.

AudreyLOL

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Got an enquiry today from someone who wants a website, including a CMS.

During the discussion, she mentioned that someone had told her it could be done for €300 :eek:

Should I even bother to put together a quote, or is this someone who will never see the value in having a proper website ?

I think she was probably just chancing it, to get a discount or something like that.

Give her a quote, your not losing anything appart from a bit of time.

Eoin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Should I even bother to put together a quote, or is this someone who will never see the value in having a proper website ?

How long will it take you to do up a quote? Did she specifically ask for one, and you're thinking of not responding at all?

p

Did you tell her that she could probably get someone to build something for 300, just like you could always pay some cowboy to rennovate your shop for you too.

I wouldn't waste my time putting together a quote until she knows the ballpark range you'd be talking about. If you tell her that and she's still interested, then give her an estimate.

ScumLord

Let me introduce you to this ancient concept that will become ever more popular in these recessionary times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3LL338aGA

Liam Byrne

Haggling is well and good as long as someone respects your livelihood and WANTS to hire an expert, Scumlord.....

€200 a day is far from expensive, and it'd take AT LEAST 5 days (and that's a conservative estimate) to do a proper site......where do people get the idea that web designers and coders are people whose profession should be treated with disrespect ?

jmcc

Liam Byrne wrote: »

During the discussion, she mentioned that someone had told her it could be done for €300 :eek:

Tell her that having a website developed by some student on their holidays is great and cheap - right up until things start to go wrong and the student is back in school or off traveling around. And then when the client loses their domain because the student registered it on their one of their parent's creditcards and it lapses, how much will it cost to recover the site and the domain? Or to reframe the question: does she really think that her business is only worth 300 Euro?

Regards...jmcc

TaxiManMartin

There are a couple of Indian guys who work with me and they do excellent websites.
Charge a flat fee of €100 to your basic 5 page website.

When they have too much work on they get just get friends in India to do them.

I wouldnt do any for that price, unless i was unemployed (then id probably take any money i got offered, even if it took a few days to do them), but they are happy with what they get for them.

Competition is a killer.

Liam Byrne

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

There are a couple of Indian guys who work with me and they do excellent websites.
Charge a flat fee of €100 to your basic 5 page website.

"your basic 5 page website", which is comprised of what ? How can you design "a basic website" for a company without even knowing what that company does ?

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

....they are happy with what they get for them.

Competition is a killer.

GENUINE competition is a killer; mickey-mouse / hobby / student operators that make everyone devalue the professionalism required to do a proper website is a joke!

ocallagh

I think you now the answer to this question Liam, no do not waste your time, you'll end up spending 5 days on this and for 300 it is not worth it. As P said, quote them what you think is fair and explain why and let them make the decision.

Just like other trades, there should be some sort of accreditation system to protect professional web developers (and clients).

TaxiManMartin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"your basic 5 page website", which is comprised of what ? How can you design "a basic website" for a company without even knowing what that company does ?



GENUINE competition is a killer; mickey-mouse / hobby / student operators that make everyone devalue the professionalism required to do a proper website is a joke!

I think you over estimate what people are actually looking for when the want a website. If you can talk them into spending money on stuff they dont need then more power to you.

But most people are happy to pick from a bunch of templates, customized via stylesheets to their own liking and with their own text, images etc.

That kind of job is not hard at all. Its so easy. i wouldnt think it worth my while, but others will consider it worth doing for €100. They have no problem adding in functionality that they have written before and can just plug in in a short time, like all of us i guess.

Thats competition. Dont compete if you dont want to. I dont bother trying to compete with that. I still, like a lot of people try and tell a customer they need a hell of a lot more than they actually do, and so squeeze cash out of them that way. But im starting to feel guilty these days. Theres actually more money in driving the taxi in the evening than web sites now.

Stick to doing more complex sites, but watch the work dwindle.

Web design isnt as lucrative as it used to be. Get used to it.
We all think we are worth more than we really are. But really we are only worth what the customer will put up with. We can charge €300 a day, but if we get no work its not much good is it.

I can tell you too that if any of us were unemployed for long, we'd be glad of 5 days work for €300. Thats what it may come to.

AARRRGH

Liam Byrne wrote: »

GENUINE competition is a killer; mickey-mouse / hobby / student operators that make everyone devalue the professionalism required to do a proper website is a joke!

Just because your prices are "cheap" doesn't mean you're a mickey mouse outfit.

Surely you can install a CMS and a nice template in a few minutes for €300?

As TaxiManMartin said, surely you already have a CMS you use which you can plug in modules you use, and surely this CMS works with templates and is already SEO ready?

This is all most customers want. You don't need to try to change the world every time you make a website.

I'd at least send the customer details of what I'm willing to do for €300. You'll do that in the time it takes to make a couple of posts on boards.ie. And it's €300... you might think that's nothing but €300 will buy you your food for a month!

At the end of the day, only you choose how you spend your time, so if you don't want to "waste your time" dealing with this customer, then don't.

But I have to say, turning your nose up at €300 stinks of the because I'm worth it pre-recession days.

Eoin

I've done my fair share of small websites, and it's never just a few minutes work. You can be certain there is going to be a lot of back and forth between you and the customer, and before you know it, you're at least 2-3 full days down. That's not worth €300 if this is your full time job.

Edit - that said, that's now really what the thread is about - personally, I'd just stop moaning and just send a damn quote. If they don't get back, then no big deal.

AARRRGH wrote:

But I have to say, turning your nose up at €300 stinks of the because I'm worth it pre-recession days.

I disagree, but turning up your nose at even giving a quote does.

Liam Byrne

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

I think you over estimate what people are actually looking for when the want a website. If you can talk them into spending money on stuff they dont need then more power to you.

Excuse me ? I never talk anyone into "stuff they don't need"; I do, however, try to give them what they DO need, rather than throwing together a crap site.

I simply don't do templated stuff, and I have never seen a templated site that does the job properly.

There's also the inevitable "why doesn't it show up in Google" if you don't put in the effort to get the site done right.

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

But most people are happy to pick from a bunch of templates, customized via stylesheets to their own liking and with their own text, images etc.

Even getting suitable text and images, and ensuring they have copyright to use them, etc, resizing them, etc, takes more than 2 days.

As for the comments about "not actually bothering to quote"; that's over-simplifying it; yes, it's easy to throw together a generic quote listing off a few bits, but a proper quote for a comprehensive site would talk at least a few hours (possibly even sitting down with the client for a few hours too, to determine requirements) and that's what I'm talking about.

Yes, if someone's under the illusion that they can get a decent site for €300, then it'd be a one-page "here's a bog-standard, 5-page site for you, and I haven't even bothered do a mockup or a "look" either" proposal,, because you'll take what you get at that price; that's not proper business, and it's not a road I really want to go down.

That said, I'll type up a proper proposal for what SHOULD be in the site, based on her phone call, and price accordingly, and if she's serious about her business then she can decide herself......the other worry that I had is that she'll take the ideas and give them to the mickey-mouse operation that was throwing together a template, but I guess that can't be helped.

di2772

TaxiManMartin and AARRRGH are correct.

I'll just tell you my experience in getting a website done for someone.


A client company needed a website there a few months ago. He got some mad quotes off people who told him he needed this and that.

So he asked me to look into it for him.

Eventually i got an excellent one done for him for €200 with everything he wanted in it, after asking other people where they got theirs and how much they cost them.

The guy showed us several mock ups, which he was able to show us over the phone and the web in about an hour. We picked one. Sent the photos and the content. And his website was ready next day.

Several other acquaintances and clients have got websites from the same guy after being pointed there by my client or myself. And i know of none who are unhappy with their websites.

You cant keep living in the past.
Websites are not expensive anymore. There are so many companies doing them.
Its compete or die.

Eoin

I wouldn't mind seeing some examples of his work. Can you post the address please?

Webmonkey

eoin wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing some examples of his work. Can you post the address please?

+1, I wouldn't mind either.

Liam Byrne

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

Web design isnt as lucrative as it used to be. Get used to it.

Since when is €200 per day "lucrative" ?

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

We all think we are worth more than we really are. But really we are only worth what the customer will put up with. We can charge €300 a day, but if we get no work its not much good is it.

True, but the question is WHY the customer doesn't believe we are worth that; because people without the necessary skills are selling pigs in pokes.

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

I can tell you too that if any of us were unemployed for long, we'd be glad of 5 days work for €300. Thats what it may come to.

AARRRGH wrote: »

And it's €300... you might think that's nothing but €300 will buy you your food for a month!

On what planet ?

5 days work x 4 weeks = €1,200 per month, assuming that level, I don't think you'd need to pay tax, because it's only €15,000 per year....but the 1% levy MIGHT apply.

House loan / mortgage = €750 - €900 per month
Telephone & Broadband = €80 per month
Electricity, heating = €60 per month
Petrol = €40 per month

Conservative total before even contemplating eating or living = approx €1,200 per month

So this isn't a "L'oreal" issue; do the maths yourself and let me know if doing websites for the bare minimum wage (1 week for €300 = €8 per hour) is even REMOTELY worth it.

Not to mention the fact that typing up proper proposals that you may or may not be undercut for also takes time, so you could lose a day or two per month.

AARRRGH

Liam Byrne wrote: »

5 days work x 4 weeks = €1,200 per month

Are you really trying to convince me it will take you one full week to create a basic website (i.e. CMS & template) for €300?

If you're being serious, I think you should examine the process you follow when making websites to see why it is taking you so long.

Are you new to programming or photoshop...?

Don't get me wrong, I know making a website you are truely happy with takes time, but a customer offering €300 is not looking for something Da Vinci would be proud of; they're looking for a CMS & template, or dare I say it, just a template.

AARRRGH wrote:

And it's €300... you might think that's nothing but €300 will buy you your food for a month!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

On what planet ?

Planet Dublin. If you don't spend a lot of money on junk food, it is easy to buy your months groceries for €300.

Liam Byrne

AARRRGH wrote: »

Are you really trying to convince me it will take you one full week to create a basic website (i.e. CMS & template) for €300?

No. I've already said that I don't do templates.

Yes, the most basic of basic sites, with no CMS, no distinct look, and populated with everything (photos and text content) could be done in a day - assuming the client provided everything, which is unlikely if they can't see the difference between a proper site and a budget one, which would add at least a day of explaining and getting them to provide everything - including spec - in a meaningful and straightforward format, and if they also didn't expect much say in how it looked (unless they gave you a workable guideline).

So that's two days for €300 - tight, but fair enough.

Even if you used a template, who spends the time locating the one that they want ?

AARRRGH wrote: »

Are you new to programming or photoshop...?

LOL - Far from it, mate! But like I said, I don't use templates.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I know making a website you are truely happy with takes time, but a customer offering €300 is not looking for something Da Vinci would be proud of; they're looking for a CMS & template, or dare I say it, just a template.

Probably, and hence my question.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Planet Dublin. If you don't spend a lot of money on junk food, it is easy to buy your months groceries for €300.

Now you're having a laugh, right ? Read the full post, and you'll see that my point was that there's NOTHING left over from the €300 to even contemplate buying food!

AARRRGH

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No. I've already said that I don't do templates.

Ah that's grand so, why didn't you just say no to the customer?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Now you're having a laugh, right ? Read the full post, and you'll see that my point was that there's NOTHING left over from the €300 to even contemplate buying food!

But that's only if you spend ages on a template site...

Listen, it's obvious you're only interested in developing high-end websites, or at least, espensive websites, so you should just tell template wanting customers that you don't want their business. Feel free to send them to me!

Liam Byrne

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you're being serious, I think you should examine the process you follow when making websites to see why it is taking you so long.

For the record:

Day 1 : Discuss with client, create outline spec & create 3 proposed "looks" based on required navigation options
Day 2 : Integration of suggested changes, creation of site "look" base graphics and combining with the codebase / libraries to get client sign-off on a working "prototype"
Day 3 (non-concurrent, obviously): Assemble content and populate the initial site (all going smoothly, with content provided in a fairly suitable, clear and understandable format)
Day 4 : Full cross-browser testing via test site; tweaks (usually CSS); upload to hosting and sanity check
Day 5 : Installation of backend, CMS, permissions testing, speed testing, etc

Day 6 : Client orientation on the CMS and preparing images for the web (usually 2 hours to a half-day, depending on their experience)

Day 15 (approx) : Benchmarking, stats, Google ranking etc + tweaks

Well, that's my usual timeline for a "basic" site. But like I said, we're not comparing like with like; and hence my question - if someone wants a Lada, and they've been convinced by the local backyard salesman that that's all they need, is there any point in spending time creating a proper outline proposal/quote for them for a BMW, or even a Avensis or a Passat ?

Will they even comprehend the difference, or will it be a complete waste of BOTH people's time (but mainly mine, since I'd be the one not getting paid for it) ?

Liam Byrne

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ah that's grand so, why didn't you just say no to the customer?

That's my point, AARRRGH....all she mentioned was that someone had offered to do her a site for €300.......she doesn't know what "templates" are!

And the only way of emphasising the difference to someone who's in that mindset is to do up a full proposal that would highlight the differences.

Hence the post; is it worth even trying ?

I wasn't having a go or being stroppy; it's just frustrating when someone reckons that they'd get the same for a ridiculous price, and the only way to spell out the difference is to spend time on the quote/proposal.

So again - and sorry if the frustration showed in my phrasing - my question is whether it's worth spelling it out for them ?

AARRRGH wrote: »

Listen, it's obvious you're only interested in developing high-end websites, or at least, espensive websites, so you should just tell template wanting customers that you don't want their business. Feel free to send them to me!

I'll let that go - my prices match what someone gets (and are even low for that, in most cases). I'll stand over all sites that I've done 100% - you get what you pay for - and then some.

AARRRGH

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hence the post; is it worth even trying ?

From a sales perspective, I think you should, as they are a potential customer and they might be willing to raise their budget.

Eoin

I can sort of see both points of view here, but I would still like to see these €300 sites that can be knocked out in a day. But let's not pretend that they will be tailored properly to a company's identity. If they are templates, then they will most likely have very poor mark-up. I know there are nice CSS templates out there, but I would say the majority of them have more tables than a furniture store.

Edit - I have also never, ever, ever experienced the site content being ready to go in a day, and certainly not first time. So that involves either lots of revisions or adding a CMS. I integrate with CushyCMS for free (branded version though) as it's such a pain in the hole getting content finalised. So that's really at least 1/2 a day implementation and testing on its own. So, I can't see how a site that's even approaching professional could be done so quickly.

I do this as a part time gig as well, and I would still be very hesitant taking on the people who want a site for €300.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hence the post; is it worth even trying?

Not even quoting seems like poor form to me. Probably time as well spent as venting here!

di2772 wrote:

TaxiManMartin and AARRRGH are correct.

There's no right or wrong here, this is all subjective stuff.

di2772 wrote:

I'll just tell you my experience in getting a website done for someone.

A client company needed a website there a few months ago. He got some mad quotes off people who told him he needed this and that.

So he asked me to look into it for him.

Eventually i got an excellent one done for him for €200 with everything he wanted in it, after asking other people where they got theirs and how much they cost them.

.....

You cant keep living in the past.
Websites are not expensive anymore. There are so many companies doing them.
Its compete or die.

Well, hopefully we can see the link then. It's not fair to make any comments about the service that was provided until we can see the mark-up, accessibility, overall design and so on.

Someone might be happy with their website, but they might not know if their site is SEO optimised / can be viewed by people with disabilities / looks shìte to most people.

Liam Byrne

eoin wrote: »

Not even quoting seems like poor form to me. Probably time as well spent as venting here!

Again, maybe frustration / disbelief got the better of me in the phrasing.

What I meant was whether it should be a proper quotation (i.e. normally taking an hour or two,detailing how it should be done right) or a thrown-together quotation as in a five-minute "I'll do this half-decently for you for about €600 - €1,000, depending" email, on the basis that she's already made her mind up that she's on for buying the carbon-copy Lada with her company name stuck to the side of it.

As I said, detailing the differences in a proposal/quote and saying "this is better for your business; here's what we can do for you" is one thing, but it takes time.

And also, I don't want to put my name or reputation on a site that's a half-assed, ill-thought-out effort.

Dades

I don't see the harm in giving the client a ball-park figure - without spending hours on coming up with it. If you've been in business that long you're going to know what you would charge to make a site you are willing to put your name to.

The client is clearly not tech-savvy so they are only going want the reader's digest version of why they should pay 5-10 times what they were hoping to.

I also believe that web developers have to live with the fact that people will make sites for €300 - and that there are clients who are perfectly happy with this service. It's doesn't make either party wrong - it just shakes up the market. Sure, some people pay €300 and get a crap site. But people have paid bigger money and got crap sites too, over the years. If someone has a decent portfolio of template based sites, I can totally see why small companies who are only looking for a 5-pagers would run with them.

I see parallel discussions on the photography forum, where prices are being undercut but newbies armed with the latest cameras. Again - if you have a decent portfolio (i.e. one that appeals to the buyer - not the purist) you gain a place at the table and can charge whatever you wish. Caveat emptor.

Eoin

This isn't really anything new anyway. The only difference I can see is that a CMS used to be an expensive add-on, but now with all the free packages that no longer require that much programming knowledge, it's an expected part of the deal. Not a bad thing, as content seems to the one of the biggest delays anyway.

Pixelcraft

Why templates are even being introduced to this discussion is beyond me, the OP - a developer/designer is asking if he should quote on a web design. Templates don't compete with a bespoke design, so it's really a different industry.

Liam Byrne

True enough, pixelcraft, but to the average punter who's looking for a quote, whether or not someone uses templates or outsources won't even enter their head because they won't know to ask.

CuLT

Different markets as far as I'm concerned.

You're discussing the difference between buying designer clothes and buying Dunnes clothes as if they're attempting to draw the same consumer. As with DVD and BluRay, the difference in quality just isn't enough to justify the cost for most people.

Now, of course, the low end of the market has things like Squarespace to compete with. The lower end of the industry is literally being commoditized, and there is simply no way to stop that. A lot of people are going to be out of jobs because they're just not good enough to compete with what Out Of The Box is starting to mean.

When most of what you do can be automated or put in the hands of a non tech-savy customer, you're dangerously close to becoming irrelevant.

Liam Byrne

Decent enough attempt at an analogy, CuLT, although personally "designer clothes" are seriously overpriced; it's probably more accurate if we compare relatively standard stuff like Levis or Wrangler than the "designer" stuff.

And again, given that the customer isn't savvy enough to even KNOW that there's a difference, what can be done about this, without spending time explaining it based on the fact that it's a contract that you probably won't get anyway based on unrealistic budget constraints ?

e.g. Most people would know that a €3 t-shirt will need to be binned after 2 or 3 washes, versus something that costs €15 or €20; likewise, Ikea or Argos might be fine for an occasionally-used desk in a corner of a bedroom, but I don't know anyone who'd buy one for a working office.

gaz wac

FYP

Liam Byrne wrote: »

For the record:

Day 1 - 4: Discuss with client, Go onto Boards and talk about it for the next 4 days !

Day 5 : Installation of backend, CMS, permissions testing, speed testing, etc

Day 6 : Client orientation on the CMS and preparing images for the web (usually 2 hours to a half-day, depending on their experience)

Day 15 (approx) : Benchmarking, stats, Google ranking etc + tweaks


Will they even comprehend the difference, or will it be a complete waste of BOTH people's time (but mainly mine, since I'd be the one not getting paid for it) ?

Liam Byrne

gaz wac wrote: »

FYP

Here all week, eh ? Hilarious! :rolleyes:

Don't worry, for €300 almost none of that would apply, so if you wanted to "Fix" :rolleyes: the post, you should have just quoted the first line and removed any reference to planning and implementing a decent site.

gaz wac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here all week, eh ? Hilarious! :rolleyes:

Don't worry, for €300 almost none of that would apply, so if you wanted to "Fix" :rolleyes: the post, you should have just quoted the first line and removed any reference to planning and implementing a decent site.

How much do I owe you for that advice? :eek:

Webmonkey

This thread is depressing me - Makes my creative / development skills sound like they are redundant. What a waste of all those years! :pac:

Mr Web

Hey, yeah I need like a full site, its gonna backup my lucrative something business. I was scaling the web today (first time ever man) - and I reckon I will need maybe 15-20 pages. Want it to be hooked up to a dinglebase and yeah! I want that CMS thing too - so you wont ever be needed again once you produce the goods. Helps me get you out of the loop.

You're going to have to drag ALL the content for it out of me... might take you a little while as im not very good with that, plus - IM a Business-man (woman) god-dang-it - I havent got time for that - your the webguy.

You're going to have to produce all the design and graphics out by yourself too. Develop the lot, get me decent hosting, oh and setup my domain and my emails too.

With my one-time-web-searching experience - I am convinced this would only take a few hours, maybe 4 or 5 (if you plan on taking a break that is - scoff! scoff!), so I guess a couple of yoyo's would cover it.

Want it up by tomorrow too....

- - - - - - - -
If you're still struggling - THIS IS NOT A JOB AD - it's a RANT

Liam Byrne

Classic! But unfortunately true....

Mr Web wrote: »

You're going to have to produce all the design and graphics out by yourself too.

You forgot 2 things :
1) I don't have a logo or a pre-existing colour scheme, and no, I've no suggestions (but if you do a logo that I like I'll probably want it without paying any extra)

2) I can't specify what I'd like, but surely 2 or 3 completely different looks don't take long to "mock up"; don't have it too, rough a "mock-up", though; it needs to be pixel perfect, really, because otherwise I'll think it's meant to look that ****e.

oeb

This is why I stopped doing brochure type websites (As in the kind of site that your average small or medium business will look for). I am not willing to compete in this bottom of the barrell, instant gratification market.

Duckjob

Why not just explain to then potential customer the distinction, and hence the price difference between a custom designed site and a template?

Then explain that using templates aren't part of your business, so that they know not to expect a €300 quote from you.

Sounds like you just pass on this one IMO.

The Guvnor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

e.g. Most people would know that a €3 t-shirt will need to be binned after 2 or 3 washes, versus something that costs €15 or €20; likewise, Ikea or Argos might be fine for an occasionally-used desk in a corner of a bedroom, but I don't know anyone who'd buy one for a working office.

I am not a web designer but I can appreciate the sentiment expressed in this thread by web designers.

As a customer and one working on a website atm - I am reading up, trying to understand the very basics. This way I feel I will be able to express what I want in a relatively clear manner.

I will say that getting a website built is probably similar to building a house - a fluid process and things can and will change.

However when I see sites such as GoodBarry (especially this one), Magento, Concrete5 etcetera, it colours my view on the costings of having a website professionally designed. How could it not?

On the t-shirt front - I have bought many €3.00 diadora t-shirts for wearing in the gym and they are what 3 years old now and still dark black and have not shrunk or got damaged in any way. €15 would probably still be considered not that pricey for a t-shirt when there are plenty that cost upwards of €50! Also the desk I use in my office is from IKEA and is at least 8 years old and has been moved three times and is still rock solid. At 19st I lean on it everyday for a few hours! I think you may need a new analogy Liam!:)

If we are being honest here (don't expect people to admit it) how is a job priced - is it a transparent process? Or does one try a price and see what the reaction is? As an individual I am very wary of discussing budgets. What I can afford or what I am willing to pay should not be relevant to what it will cost to get the job done.

I know many tradesmen who are now pricing jobs at 50% of what they priced them at during the good times. The reason given was some in their industry were quoting less and they had to adjust their prices to get work.

Hope one can see my point of view and that I am not slating the industry or profession as I may require help in the not too distant future!:)

Pixelcraft

It's understandable you don't want to disclose a budget to some extent, and most people don't. On the other hand, websites are constructed for specific budgets. If you've found a designer you like, and you have a set budget tell them, because a custom website is not a tangible good/product it can be tailored to fit your budget.

Unless you run into cowboys on both price scales, there will be a difference in the amount of work offered with different estimates.

I would disagree with Liam's t-shirt analogy, a more suitable one I think is comparing a store bought suit, and a tailored suit. They're going to cost different prices, but one's always going to look better (providing you have a good tailor, expense doesn't = good either).

Pricing should be transparent, and you should be told exactly what you're getting - concept sketches, wireframes, design, coding, usability testing etc.

The Guvnor

Hi Pixelcraft,

I cut out the tailored suit analogy from my reply (genuine)!:) Basically saying a €1500 Armani will not necessarily look or function better than a €300 M&S.

Is it acceptable to say that in Ireland the standard of living and associated cost affects the price and therefore a similarly competent designer in a different country may provide a similar level of service for less?

Business is business and I for one cannot blame anyone from trying to make as much money as they can for what they do, that is afterall human nature. It is however also human nature to try and get the best value/deal available. Therein lies the issue imo at least.

Eoin

The Guvnor wrote: »

Is it acceptable to say that in Ireland the standard of living and associated cost affects the price and therefore a similarly competent designer in a different country may provide a similar level of service for less?

Yes, that's definitely a factor. However, that can be fraught with its own problems.

Pixelcraft

Sure there may be a price difference between countries but not that much. People will say you can get a guy in India to do a site for $150 but you can get that here to, and they'll both be rubbish - quality costs a fair price no matter what country

smemon

If you're in a full time job, doing it as a nixer, your time is probably not worth it... (unless you want to do it for the craic / experience)

*if* however, you're a student / unemployed and have nothing to do anyway, building a site on the cheap doesn't just get you some cash.... it gets you experience and something on a CV...

The problem here is that we have pro's who will charge you to talk to them, charge you on a per second basis and probably slap a minimum charge on there too...

Then we have the students / semi-pro's who can whip up and hack together sites without doing much custom programming / design. Plus they've no mortgage, car loans etc... so it's pocket money to them.

These 'customers are idiots' threads always turn in to mickey waving amongst pro's / students / general public / some guy who built a site using frontpage 10 years ago....

Bottom line - offer what you think is a reasonable quote. Work out roughly how long it ill take, tell customer what he'll get and make it clear any additional features will cost extra. Don't listen to what others charge - you are not 'others'.

If the customer is an idiot, it's your job to educate him / put him right if you think he's chancing his arm....

If you can't do it for 'x' price and he's not listening to you, walk away.... simple.

di2772

The Guvnor wrote: »

I am not a web designer but I can appreciate the sentiment expressed in this thread by web designers.

As a customer and one working on a website atm - I am reading up, trying to understand the very basics. This way I feel I will be able to express what I want in a relatively clear manner.

I will say that getting a website built is probably similar to building a house - a fluid process and things can and will change.

However when I see sites such as GoodBarry (especially this one), Magento, Concrete5 etcetera, it colours my view on the costings of having a website professionally designed. How could it not?

On the t-shirt front - I have bought many €3.00 diadora t-shirts for wearing in the gym and they are what 3 years old now and still dark black and have not shrunk or got damaged in any way. €15 would probably still be considered not that pricey for a t-shirt when there are plenty that cost upwards of €50! Also the desk I use in my office is from IKEA and is at least 8 years old and has been moved three times and is still rock solid. At 19st I lean on it everyday for a few hours! I think you may need a new analogy Liam!:)

If we are being honest here (don't expect people to admit it) how is a job priced - is it a transparent process? Or does one try a price and see what the reaction is? As an individual I am very wary of discussing budgets. What I can afford or what I am willing to pay should not be relevant to what it will cost to get the job done.

I know many tradesmen who are now pricing jobs at 50% of what they priced them at during the good times. The reason given was some in their industry were quoting less and they had to adjust their prices to get work.

Hope one can see my point of view and that I am not slating the industry or profession as I may require help in the not too distant future!:)

When you are ready to get your site done, let me know.
I'll put you in touch with a few designers/companies and you can take it from there if you like any of them.
Get a few quotes elsewhere too. Maybe from the guys here.

Eoin

di2772 wrote: »

Eventually i got an excellent one done for him for €200 with everything he wanted in it, after asking other people where they got theirs and how much they cost them.

The guy showed us several mock ups, which he was able to show us over the phone and the web in about an hour. We picked one. Sent the photos and the content. And his website was ready next day.

Several other acquaintances and clients have got websites from the same guy after being pointed there by my client or myself. And i know of none who are unhappy with their websites.

So can you post any of these links? I'm very curious to see what you can get for 200 in a day.

di2772

eoin wrote: »

So can you post any of these links? I'm very curious to see what you can get for 200 in a day.

In all seriousness. Would you think it would be acceptable to your clients if you identified hem and posted their websites on a public forum without their permission.

The websites belong to my own clients. I couldnt possibly post them up, even though id love to.

Just because i am involved in a debate doesnt make it acceptable for me to drag my clients into it.

30 minutes of research will bring you back a hell of a lot of companies doing nice inexpensive websites. You can see if these suit your needs and if they dont , then pursue the more expensive avenues.

Eoin

Fair enough - how about the designer's website?