Should I waste my time ?

di2772

eoin wrote: »

Fair enough - how about the designer's website?

I'll shoot them a mail when im back at work and ask them.

But as i said. Dont wait on me. Google is your friend and all that.

Eoin

I was just curious about this particular designer, not how to Google. 200 seems to be very much at the bottom of the price scale I've seen, so I was interested to see what you get for that.

AARRRGH

Pixelcraft wrote: »

Sure there may be a price difference between countries but not that much. People will say you can get a guy in India to do a site for $150 but you can get that here to, and they'll both be rubbish - quality costs a fair price no matter what country

Will you stop with that rubbish.

The reason outsoucing in India is so cheap is because wages are much lower over there.

For example, a doctor over here might get 150k per year, but in India might only get 40k per year. Does that mean the doctor in India is bad? No, it means wages in India are lower.

The exact same thing applies to IT professionals.

It's a simple concept. Stop being dishonest.

Pixelcraft

I'm not being dishonest. In every thread you jump into you have yet to post an example of a site that was built for a couple of hundred that is of a professional standard. There are great designers in most countries, but they charge professional fees.

Some Indian developers/designers charge low rates, so do some Irish, and some UK, and some Americans. All of them in my experience will be of similar quality - poor for that price.

You disagree, I get that, but I wish you would back it up, otherwise it's just a thinly veiled attack on the web industry here, and it's getting a bit old AARRRGH.

AARRRGH

Pixelcraft wrote: »

I'm not being dishonest. In every thread you jump into you have yet to post an example of a site that was built for a couple of hundred that is of a professional standard. There are great designers in most countries, but they charge professional fees.

I gave examples in a previous thread.

It is plainly ridiculous to suggest low wages means low skill.

If that's the case, Londoners must be better skilled than us, and we must be better skilled than the Germans.

Your argument makes no sense.

Pixelcraft wrote: »

You disagree, I get that, but I wish you would back it up, otherwise it's just a thinly veiled attack on the web industry here, and it's getting a bit old AARRRGH.

I'm not attacking the Irish web industry, I simply have little patience for bull****.

Pixelcraft

AARRRGH wrote: »

It is plainly ridiculous to suggest low wages means low skill.
.

I said nothing of the sort & you've got it all backwards. The price doesn't make the job. The skill commands the price. And if you actually read my post, you'll see I'm saying that the skilled people even in lower wage economies charge nowhere near as little as you're suggesting, and are more comparable with 'western' rates than you'd like to believe.

I've worked with developers some by choice and some not from a lower wage economy, some were cheap, and bad. Some were excellent, but they cost almost as much as an Irish developer would.

edit: and you never gave any examples.

AARRRGH

Pixelcraft wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort & you've got it all backwards. The price doesn't make the job. The skill commands the price. And if you actually read my post, you'll see I'm saying that the skilled people even in lower wage economies charge nowhere near as little as you're suggesting, and are more comparable with 'western' rates than you'd like to believe.

I've worked with developers some by choice and some not from a lower wage economy, some were cheap, and bad. Some were excellent, but they cost almost as much as an Irish developer would.

edit: and you never gave any examples.

I'll try once more.

Wages are not the same in every country. Some countries have higher wages than Ireland, some countries have lower wages.

This means a person with X level of skill in London will be on higher wages than a person with X level of skill in Ireland. And a person with X level of skill in Ireland will be on higher wages than a person with X level of skill in Poland.

Based on the above paragraph you can see three people have the same X level of skill, but because they live in different countries they earn a different wage.

Outsourcing takes advantage of this.

...

Irish people are not magically more skilled because we live in an expensive country. I really hope you are prepared because wages are reducing in Ireland which using your logic will mean our skills must also be reducing.

You're making no sense.

Anyway, I'm talking to a brick wall here, but sooner or later you're going to have to accept reality.

Pixelcraft

Well done for not reading a thing I've said.

Axwell

It would also be fair to say what when outsourcing not everyone on those sites or from those countries is of the skill level X and could be of a skill level Y. What pixelcraft is saying to you is that the people in countries you outsource to charging the kind of money you are talking about simply arent of the Skill level X, while some are the majority arent. You might be lucky to have someone you yourself use who is good but the majority of times you look to outsource its risky and you have to explain everything in detail and still dont get exactly what you want. They are trying to turn around projects quickly to make money and will cut corners if the spec allows for it.

Webmonkey

Companies and individuals in India also have less money to spend on sites.

An Irish person paying a proper priced web development company would be equivalent to an indian paying a proper indian company. So we are not ripping people off. We are simply charging based on the cost of wages/living.

Outsourcing is damaging to Irish web developers. We cannot compete against the Indians. Just look at the freelance web sites, like RentACoder.com. It's hardly worth your while doing a job on it.

I would say, outsourcing has a major disadvantage. That is, lack of understanding between developer and client. Developer may decide not to respond to you afterwards if things go wrong. Nothing much you can do. You've some hope if it's an Irish business.

If everyone was like you AARRRGH, then I don't think small web development or programming companies would exist in Ireland. Luckly some people know to support Irish companies and in return get hopefully good support and a good quality site.

AARRRGH

Webmonkey wrote: »

If everyone was like you AARRRGH, then I don't think small web development or programming companies would exist in Ireland. Luckly some people know to support Irish companies and in return get hopefully good support and a good quality site.

I don't care if people outsource their work or not, I simply am pointing out that (as usual) people who have a vested interest in something will say anything to protect that interest.

I agree with you that outsourcing isn't perfect, with the example you gave (Irish law not applying overseas) being a biggie, however, with proper planning and project management you can remove or at least minimise that risk.

I don't know what the future holds for the Irish web development industry, but I don't see any point in trying to trick people into believing people in Asia/Eastern Europe have poor skills. That silly tactic won't work forever.

Axwell

AARRRGH wrote: »

but I don't see any point in trying to trick people into believing people in Asia/Eastern Europe have poor skills. That silly tactic won't work forever.

No one is tricking anyone into believing anything but you personally see outsourcing as the way to go for you. What people have to be aware of is there are way more risks going with outsourcing a project and in most cases the person wanting the site doesnt know enough about web design to avoid these. You might have been lucky but had your fingers been burned you wouldnt be so approving of it. You have a language barrier, you have to give every detail from day one, if you fail to mention something you can sure it wont be included and you will be told you didnt say it at the start, you have a time difference which means getting support within a reasonable time frame is near impossible, you cant have face to face meetings, if the company wants once they get their money they can just stop answering your emails, good luck with flying over there to find them.

At the end of the day outsourcing in any business is going to be an option but it comes with plenty of risks, but sometimes in business its not worth taking the risks. If you outsource enough projects to enough different businesses you wont be long about finding a few that will burn you, just because you have had a good experience with it doesnt mean its a gaurentee.

Mr Web

Axwell wrote: »

If you outsource enough projects to enough different businesses you wont be long about finding a few that will burn you, just because you have had a good experience with it doesnt mean its a gaurentee.

Indeed, not to mention burning local industry... If you're not putting it in his (her) pocket, they don't have it to put in the next pocket... and soon you will notice your own pockets a little less full.

Eoin

Taking away the argument about supporting Irish business (I have absolutely no qualms ordering goods online), my experience of outsourcing to India, has not been great at all - and I'd like to think I have a good idea of how to manage this type of project.

I don't believe that you can divide the cost of living / average wage over here and in India, and use that to come to what you should expect to pay. I made the mistake of thinking my money would go much further with an Indian company, and it didn't end well.

From what I've seen, good Indian design companies are charging much closer to American / European prices than people think.

AARRRGH

For the record, I wouldn't use India myself for outsourcing (too many cowboys), but my experience with Eastern Europe/Russian programmers has been excellent (very cheap and very smart), and I can't fault Spanish designers (who are about half the price of Irish designers.)

People shouldn't shop local just because you're Irish - you have to compete on price too.

But anyway, I don't really care. It'll all work itself out in the end.