Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

Sam Russell

I tried again today before I commit to aerial and hardware.

BP - nothing with the same gear I used last time. Clearly there was a lift on that day.

LLanddona - received great signal from Llanddona on 57, 60, etc.

Signal stregth 39% on 57, with Quality 98%. C/N 24dB.

These figures from the Sagem Picnic box. Aerial was a grid from TVtrade.ie.

Got all channels that could be expected, no HD but I cannot get that anyway. RTE came in on the back of the aerial. I forgot to try the EPG to see how well it integrates, but I will do that when everything is nailed in place.

Good result.:)

I did not try Arfon because I got such a good result from Llanddona. A lot of aerials around Monkstown, Blackrock point out to sea at Arfon. They may be better to try Llanddona as there are 6 muxes instead of 3.

sesswhat

Sam Russell wrote: »

I forgot to try the EPG to see how well it integrates, but I will do that when everything is nailed in place.

Good result.:)

Congratulations

Just a note on the EPG on the Picnic box. For me, the Irish DTT TV channels go from 800 to 804 in 'reverse' order, with RTE1 at 804 and RTE News Now at 800.

The Freeview channels start at 1 with BBC1. Some people cite this as a potential drawback but I find it to be very convenient as RTE1 and BBC1 are right next to each other. It's just a matter of scrolling up for the freeview channels and down for the Irish channels.

gtg60

sesswhat wrote: »

Just a note on the EPG on the Picnic box. For me, the Irish DTT TV channels go from 800 to 804 in 'reverse' order, with RTE1 at 804 and RTE News Now at 800.

The Freeview channels start at 1 with BBC1. Some people cite this as a potential drawback but I find it to be very convenient as RTE1 and BBC1 are right next to each other. It's just a matter of scrolling up for the freeview channels and down for the Irish channels.

You can totally sort that out by arranging the channels in the 'Favourites' menu, it's 100 times better that way.

gtg60

Sam Russell wrote: »

LLanddona - received great signal from Llanddona on 57, 60, etc.

Signal stregth 39% on 57, with Quality 98%. C/N 24dB.

These figures from the Sagem Picnic box. Aerial was a grid from TVtrade.ie.

This is very interesting, Llandona always seemed the best bet for full Freeview for me but has looked unlikely.

Your setup is a Grid (~10dBi gain) and a masthead amp and you're located near the main street in Bray, is that right? If you're getting that reception all the time (i.e. no Llandona lift at the moment) then there might be hope for more of us!

Did you receive any of the weaker commercial muxes?

Sam Russell

gtg60 wrote: »

This is very interesting, Llandona always seemed the best bet for full Freeview for me but has looked unlikely.

Your setup is a Grid (~10dBi gain) and a masthead amp and you're located near the main street in Bray, is that right? If you're getting that reception all the time (i.e. no Llandona lift at the moment) then there might be hope for more of us!

Did you receive any of the weaker commercial muxes?

I was on a roof, high over the road with a grid bolted to a hand held pole. The grid was at chimney height, and roughly pointed in the right direction. I got all channels that are on freeview. I only checked the signal stregth on 57, which is one of the stronger ones. Since it was hand held, I did not get to do extensive mesurements. I will order the bits to fix the pole and then do more extensive test.

The difficulty is that BP is group A, LLanddona is group E, and Arfon is group b but vertical. (The others are all horizontal). Widebands are not great for the low end.

Very pleased with the result, and reckon I could try in Dublin.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I tried again today before I commit to aerial and hardware.

BP - nothing with the same gear I used last time. Clearly there was a lift on that day.

LLanddona - received great signal from Llanddona on 57, 60, etc.

Signal stregth 39% on 57, with Quality 98%. C/N 24dB.

These figures from the Sagem Picnic box. Aerial was a grid from TVtrade.ie.

Got all channels that could be expected, no HD but I cannot get that anyway. RTE came in on the back of the aerial. I forgot to try the EPG to see how well it integrates, but I will do that when everything is nailed in place.

Good result.:)

Be aware that I got llandonna down here aswell today.
I am not sure what to make of it,it's there strong for a while most days and then it goes.
It appears to behave exactly like presely has always done ie be there but with huge regular changes in signal strength.
It didn't used to do that in analogue or at least if it did it never really reached viewable thresholds but then maybe it did but no one ever had a cd aerial pointed at it so we would never have known or bothered trying.

I reckon it wasn't viable in analogue on the East coast but is behaving better as cofdm.

I did not try Arfon because I got such a good result from Llanddona. A lot of aerials around Monkstown, Blackrock point out to sea at Arfon. They may be better to try Llanddona as there are 6 muxes instead of 3.

They aren't pointing at arfon.
They are pointing at kilkeel actually

sesswhat

gtg60 wrote: »

You can totally sort that out by arranging the channels in the 'Favourites' menu, it's 100 times better that way.

True! You can cut out the crap with the Favourites but I don't find the default channel order to be a problem. Then again, I nearly always watch the UK channels through the TV's own tuner for a better picture.

More importantly though, for me anyhow, using anything other than the default list seems to always freeze the box.

gtg60

Sam Russell wrote: »

Very pleased with the result

Yeah, me too!

I don't know if you saw my other thread but I have some bits and bobs that may help you in your tests (in Bray at least as I'm up there frequently).

I have a professional meter and a pair of 15dBi Yagi aerial's/ amp set-ups for Group A and B, that would cover everything except channels 57 and 60 on Llandona but they're the strongest anyway so not really interesting for experimental purposes.

gtg60

Deleted User wrote: »

Be aware that I got llandonna down here aswell today.
I am not sure what to make of it,it's there strong for a while most days and then it goes.
It appears to behave exactly like presely has always done ie be there but with huge regular changes in signal strength.
It didn't used to do that in analogue or at least if it did it never really reached viewable thresholds but then maybe it did but no one ever had a cd aerial pointed at it so we would never have known or bothered trying.

I reckon it wasn't viable in analogue on the East coast but is behaving better as cofdm.

But you're 90 degrees off, right?

You NEED an aerial rotator

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Be aware that I got llandonna down here aswell today.
I am not sure what to make of it,it's there strong for a while most days and then it goes.
It appears to behave exactly like presely has always done ie be there but with huge regular changes in signal strength.
It didn't used to do that in analogue or at least if it did it never really reached viewable thresholds but then maybe it did but no one ever had a cd aerial pointed at it so we would never have known or bothered trying.

I reckon it wasn't viable in analogue on the East coast but is behaving better as cofdm.


They aren't pointing at arfon.
They are pointing at kilkeel actually

Oh dear, have I got another lift condition. I was getting a very good signal. I will put a pole in anyway, ond may have to move it if it turns out to be unreliable. There is always Arfon.

There was one aerial in Bray nearby that was pointing at Arfon, as it was pointing East. The ones in Blackrock appeared to be pointing East as well, but there is a curve on the bay, so maybe more North than I thought, but were all vertical.

yup and group B
Something is definitely happening with llandonna in digital alright.
I'd say it will be a regular bloody nuisance here in the summer!

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Oh dear, have I got another lift condition. I was getting a very good signal. I will put a pole in anyway, ond may have to move it if it turns out to be unreliable. There is always Arfon.

There was one aerial in Bray nearby that was pointing at Arfon, as it was pointing East. The ones in Blackrock appeared to be pointing East as well, but there is a curve on the bay, so maybe more North than I thought, but were all vertical.

I was in Dublin yesterday and saw a newish aerial config at kilpedder that was arfon/greystones.
Further up about a mile south of the bray south exit and there on a height beside the n11 lo and behold a kilkeel group B.
Thats the furthest south into co wicklow that I've seen Norn iron TV being received.

I'm actually thinking that Llandonna might be the surprise of the DSO to be honest.
These digital signals from main tx's seem to be able to wind their way round hills as long as you are far enough away from the hills that are obstructing it.
That would be true of the only hills in the way of llandonna I s'pose as they'd be in wales

Yes all those aerials in blackrock down to kiliney are kilkeel which is possible in kiliney and dalkey with a grid believe it or not

mrdtv2010

Very interesting results yesterday. They show the HAAT game is still important (you can get terrain calculation programmes which give your signal strength.) Arfon & Preseli are easy because of their HAAT, ditto Kilkeel and its seapath. ( Its also high above Kilkeel in the Mournes, see the mb21 web site.) B-P is being received on high ground eg Kilpedder. The results for LLanddona are striking: the failure point is around 18dB +/- 1dB for DVB-T1 so 24 dB is an excellent result and 100% quality = perfect pictures. If this is steady then Llanddona is really interesting: Bray is slightly NW of Llanddona and Anglesey is covered as is the IOM. The Llanddona null is probably in a WSW direction (recall the problems Arqiva had in getting the link to the relay on the Lleyn peninsula). Those to the NW of LLanddona seem better placed.
Black Briar is also on the money: Llanddona is going to be a nuisance to Preseli in SE Ireland in the summer months, but then you just switch to LLanddona!!!

FREETV

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Yes. But 20 crystal clear SD channels and later 4-5 HD channels is a big step up on ropey reception via analogue AND Irish DTT.

True, but what do you think my chances are of receiving Llanddonna?

mrdtv2010

FREETV wrote: »

True, but what do you think my chances are of receiving Llanddonna?

Get a wideband on a sale or return basis and have a try!.

FREETV

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Get a wideband on a sale or return basis and have a try!.

I have two already, a large one and a medium sized one but I am surounded by houses and I have to wait for a local man to build me a larger mast before I can even try to get a signal. I have also ordered grouped Triax Unix 100's and two suitable 34dB MASTHEAD AMPS, PSUS.

gtg60

FREETV wrote: »

I have also ordered grouped Triax Unix 100's

Did you manage to find a Group B one somewhere, I've been looking for one.

FREETV

gtg60 wrote: »

Did you manage to find a Group B one somewhere, I've been looking for one.

Yes, Vanjak.com have the large grouped Triax Unix 100's on special offer. They are based in Magherafelt. Let me know how you get on, mine are on the way!

gtg60

FREETV wrote: »

Yes, Vanjak.com have the large grouped Triax Unix 100's on special offer. They are based in Magherafelt. Let me know how you get on, mine are on the way!

Nice one, thanks! Won't be ordering for a bit though as I've a good bit of testing to do first.

FREETV

gtg60 wrote: »

Nice one, thanks! Won't be ordering for a bit though as I've a good bit of testing to do first.

They might be gone within a week, as they are a clearance item so I would grab one before they are gone, Triax Unix 52 wouldn't be as good gain wise although much easier to find. The higher your mast is at your location the further your aerials can receive distant transmitters also. A man I know used to have a one hundred feet high mast in a bad reception area in Wicklow in a dip and his reception was much better as a result of his huge mast. I see that nobody has any Welsh reception reports yet for Swords or Donabate.

Verso

Have just replaced my wideband aerial with a new Unix 52 Group B for Preseli. I am in Cahore with a view of the sea. It is an improvement on the wideband but over the last couple of days whilst Channel 43 come in with a quality of 90%/93% depending on conditions I cannot get much more than an average of 33%/39% for Channel 46. Channel 46 did come in at 72% for a while but dropped back again at the first appearance of rain. Channel 43 stayed at 90%. Meanwhile Channel 39 comes in at 93% quality even though the aerial is pointed away.

Comments anyone?

mrdtv2010

Verso wrote: »

Have just replaced my wideband aerial with a new Unix 52 Group B for Preseli. I am in Cahore with a view of the sea. It is an improvement on the wideband but over the last couple of days whilst Channel 43 come in with a quality of 90%/93% depending on conditions I cannot get much more than an average of 33%/39% for Channel 46. Channel 46 did come in at 72% for a while but dropped back again at the first appearance of rain. Channel 43 stayed at 90%. Meanwhile Channel 39 comes in at 93% quality even though the aerial is pointed away.

Comments anyone?

Have you tried tilting the antenna slightly upwards: the difference in RF performance only 24 Mhz apart is quite surprising given this is a grouped antenna. Ch 39 is a local station and as people are now finding out with COFDM with sufficient signal strength it does not matter if your antenna is pointed away. You may need to do a bit of experimenting with antenna positioning for Preseli. The mismatch between 43 and 46 is striking given they have the same ERP and omnidirectional HRP pattern.

Verso

mrdtv2010 wrote:

Have you tried tilting the antenna slightly upwards: the difference in RF performance only 24 Mhz apart is quite surprising given this is a grouped antenna. Ch 39 is a local station and as people are now finding out with COFDM with sufficient signal strength it does not matter if your antenna is pointed away. You may need to do a bit of experimenting with antenna positioning for Preseli. The mismatch between 43 and 46 is striking given they have the same ERP and omnidirectional HRP pattern.

Thanks mrtv2010 for your comments. My aerial is very slightly pointed upwards. Whilst it is fairly easy for me to twist the aerial around it is more difficult to adjust the tilt angle. In order to do this I have to take down the mast and set it up again. However since I am getting such good signals from Channel 43 and poor signals from 46 which originate from the same transmitter at the same power viz. 20KW I am still puzzled as to the size of the discrepancy.

whizbang

Nothing at all from Arfon on 41 or 44
but 42, 49, 50 are over 80% ss this evening, 50-60% quality
All from a rusty old fireguard, leaning towards Arfon.
i cant find any transmitter that matches these channels on the web, or are the listings out of date?

whizbang

whizbang wrote: »

Nothing at all from Arfon on 41 or 44
but 42, 49, 50 are over 80% ss this evening, 50-60% quality
All from a rusty old fireguard, leaning towards Arfon.
i cant find any transmitter that matches these channels on the web, or are the listings out of date?

Thats presely.
It's nuclear tonight.
Most main welsh tx's travel very well ahead of advancing weather fronts.

50 is llandonna.

Try ch 57 and 60 and you may get the psb llandonna's.
If you do,it would be handy to keep them tuned as spares for conditions like tonight.

Advancing weather fronts from the south east can play havoc with signals from wales usually super strengthening the main transmitters.

whizbang

Arfon came back shortly, then i was getting virtually everything from 24 up to 57, the outer ranges seem to be beyond it.
I am rethinking aerials now, maybe get a good group A for Blaen, then if it isnt doing it i could fall back to Arfon. A & B =F? aerials are rare, probably for good reason, but has anybody had any recommendations? Freq plots shown for aerials fall off very sharply at the upper end but is this the same at the lower end?? i dont mind getting up on the roof but its the financial controller i have to get past before the ladder goes up...

gtg60

Group A and B together are called Group K, although I have also seen them called BK(?).

But you'll need them pointed separately so why not buy a Group A and B? I recently bought a pair of 15dBi Yagi's for €52 delivered, add a Group A to E combiner, point each at their respective transmitters and away you go!

FREETV

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Have you tried tilting the antenna slightly upwards: the difference in RF performance only 24 Mhz apart is quite surprising given this is a grouped antenna. Ch 39 is a local station and as people are now finding out with COFDM with sufficient signal strength it does not matter if your antenna is pointed away. You may need to do a bit of experimenting with antenna positioning for Preseli. The mismatch between 43 and 46 is striking given they have the same ERP and omnidirectional HRP pattern.

How much of a tilt would the aerial need in your experience? Three inches? More, maybe four? I got my new equipment delivered today, Group A and Group B Triax Unix 100s. The Group A must be over nine feet in length but unfortunately the PCB balun is a saddle and clamp connection even though the aerial was manufactured in late 2008 so I shall look for a PCB balun with an f connector and replace it myself. The masthead amps are the same connection type. I will still use those but change to Vision power supplies with f connectors instead of the old fashioned TA34 group amps that I bought very cheaply. I can do no testing until the pleb who agreed to build me a mast actually shows up and gets down to actually doing it. I hate the waiting game, almost as bad as waiting for the launch of Irish DTT! It isn't good weather for testing at the moment. As soon as I have the tall mast in place then I will be able to test the signals here in Swords and report back here with my findings. I may not get any Welsh Freeview reception whatsoever. Only time will tell. Roll on Divis DSO. It looks like 2013 but that UK FREE TV site may not be accurate. I hope it will be 2012 instead.

d8player

I live in south west Dublin in Lucan. Has anyone in this general area been able to pick up any of the freeview signals from the UK?

mrdtv2010

FREETV wrote: »

How much of a tilt would the aerial need in your experience? Three inches? More, maybe four? I got my new equipment delivered today, Group A and Group B Triax Unix 100s. The Group A must be over nine feet in length but unfortunately the PCB balun is a saddle and clamp connection even though the aerial was manufactured in late 2008 so I shall look for a PCB balun with an f connector and replace it myself. The masthead amps are the same connection type. I will still use those but change to Vision power supplies with f connectors instead of the old fashioned TA34 group amps that I bought very cheaply. I can do no testing until the pleb who agreed to build me a mast actually shows up and gets down to actually doing it. I hate the waiting game, almost as bad as waiting for the launch of Irish DTT! It isn't good weather for testing at the moment. As soon as I have the tall mast in place then I will be able to test the signals here in Swords and report back here with my findings. I may not get any Welsh Freeview reception whatsoever. Only time will tell. Roll on Divis DSO. It looks like 2013 but that UK FREE TV site may not be accurate. I hope it will be 2012 instead.

Its unfortunately a trial and error game: you often find that spacings a few meters apart can make a huge difference. The NI switchover is in 2012: just post in UTV's postcode on DUK's reception predictor tradeview. This was confirmed in a UK government report yesterday and Divis DSO construction is well underway. ukfreetv has *NO* official status and is run by a not so gifted amateur ( he is not held in high esteem in the UK): the official DUK/Ofcom sites are much more accurate. Of course waiting for Irish DTT is like waiting for Godot and those with a disposition to attend the theatre will know exactly what I am alluding to. The better weather will let your mast be erected and lead to better Dx. Swords with a rotator and wideband should rope in the NI stations, IOM, North Wales and possibly Winter Hill.

Finally for the benefit of all those in Ireland, 4HD is now live with programmes via Freeview HD. I don't see it being on Freesat anytime soon, but it will be a big boost for NI viewers in 2012. Those in the SE will have to put up with S4CHD until it a) either goes bust or b) the UK conservatives win the UK election and pull the public spending plug. We'll see soon enough. S4CHD won't launch until 30 April whereas 4HD is on-air via FTA Freeview HD as of 0001 this morning.

Verso

Just an update on my previous posting. I get signals from Preseli and when I replaced my wideband aerial with a Unix 52 Group B I received Channel 43 at 90% Quality but could not get anything better than 32% Quality for Channel 46.

I tried again to-day and the position remained the same no matter how I tweaked and turned the Group B.

However as I have a variable masthead amp I reduced the gain and to my surprise the Quality for 46 jumped up to 66% straight away. With some more adjustment the Quality now varies between 65% and 75%. Possibly with some more careful adjustments I might improve on this. Meanwhile Channel 43 maintains it's 90%.

What still puzzles me is that with fringe reception I always thought the higher the gain with the masthead amplifier the better. I can understand with a strong reception area the gain could be reduced.

mrdtv2010

Verso: Aha! you are saturating the AGC on the receiver. Turn down the gain. Its best to have variable gain amps. This is a common problem with high power DTT which is why you need variable gain amps. Look at aerialsandtv.co.uk for an explanation. You have a high spec system with masthead which is overloading the tuner: often you need to know the dynamic range which the tuner can handle. In the UK a lot of amps have had to be removed after DSO. A variable gain amp allows you to adjust for conditions. I presume PQ is now very good after this find? I think a new sticky will be needed soon, but I am off for a week or two and look forward to reading the reports after Easter. Good result!

petronius

any chance ye could post reception reports from uk freeview tv http://ukfreeview.mpeg4ireland.com/map would be good to know what transmitter you are pointing at if your using masthead amps and what type/ height of aerial you have

I put them in there,2 of them.
But you'd be better off mining the reports from here and adding them yourself.
You're not going to get many people bothering to sign up with reports for you tbh.

DigiDec

BP very strong in Dublin all last night and this morning, all muxes, weakened a bit now.

That would be the high pressure lift.
Lifts usually are better from late afternoon onwards and weakest in the mornings.

gkp1

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be the high pressure lift.
Lifts usually are better from late afternoon onwards and weakest in the mornings.

Yes, my Arfon was suffering some breakup last night so I decided to retune and picked up BP on ch 27 with signal strength in the 40s. Quality was variable, not surprising as aerial (Triax Unix 52 group is polarised for and pointed at Arfon. I wonder why Arfon reception got bad, it had been solid for the past week?

Lift sends signal all over the place so it sometimes means that your own tx dips.

Presely this lunchtime is on fire.
Signal 100% and blasting mt leinster on 42 and 49 to kingdom come.
We've also got sky news on 45 today.

DigiDec

Preseli comig in good in Dublin too at the moment.

prioryc

using powerlink powercinema yesterday i did a scan & it received 123 channels?
every thing is fine up to channel 14:film4 then it goes nuts...
14,15,16,17,18 = film4
19.= qvc
2021,22,23,24=4music
25=dave
26-30=viva
30-35=idealworld
36=bidtv
37-41=itv4
42-46=dave ja vu
47-e4
48-e4+1
49-fiver
50-fiveusa
51-itv2+1
52-56=virgin1
then the rest with multiple babstation on 65-69

all workin today well too

petronius

Deleted User wrote: »

I put them in there,2 of them.
But you'd be better off mining the reports from here and adding them yourself.
You're not going to get many people bothering to sign up with reports for you tbh.

Cheers BB, I dont have anything to do with the site, its just that I think it would be good to have a more graphical representation of the coverage of DTT from the UK and indeed DTT here in Ireland for punters.

Anyways, planning on moving my Aerial to try and get DTT from wales this weekend.

On the Northside of Dublin, what do you reckon my chances are?

pretty good at the moment given the high pressure lift.
After that,hard to say.

I'd imagine Howth would block a lot of stuff from wales on you normally up there at that angle.
You could try caldbeck or port st mary IOM?

ocj

Hi petronius,

Let us know how you get on?
I'm in Skerries and tried last year to receive dtt from wales but didn't have any luck.
What kind of set up are you using?

Sam Russell

Just a short update on the Bray site. The BBC channels from BP are OK, but C4 for example breaks up a bit. The signal is better in the day than at night.

No measurements yet, I will not be able to do that until the middle of next month. I will then check every mux for signal stength, and try to optimise the aerial direction and height, and also try and see what signals are arriving.

Keep you posted.

yoda81269

On Sunday I purchased an Aldi Medion 19" LCD TV with Freeview and when I turned it on he asked me if I wanted to select auto installation which auto tunes all the channels which I did.
On completion of the auto tuning it had picked up all the UK Freeview channels in the Digital TV mode but then it automatically turned off. I re-powered the TV but the Freeview channels have since disappeared and when I redo an installation and auto tune it does not find the channels again. I spoke to a Medion technical support person and he said that if the TV picked them up the first time then it should do it again, there is no technical reason as they why it powered off and lost the Freeview channels or at least that is what he is saying, I'm a conspiracy theorist !!!

I'm in County Louth, 10km north of Drogehda, has anybody else had a similar experience, any thoughts ?

Try to do a full factory reset.

Then auto tune and if you get them then be sure and SAVE them.

Verso

I am in North Wexford on the coast. Yesterday Preseli on channels 43 and 46 quality at 93% - this afternoon down to 23% and no reception (poor or no signal). Any one else experience this, hope it's not my system.

It's the one in one hundred times when presely goes low.
Sea fog causes it and there were banks and banks of it in the irish sea yesterday and today.

I've had intermittent break up since yesterday for a few seconds at a time.

bothyhead

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the one in one hundred times when presely goes low.
Sea fog causes it and there were banks and banks of it in the irish sea yesterday and today.

I've had intermittent break up since yesterday for a few seconds at a time.

The same here last night. It's only about the second time that It's totally gone since the analogue was switched off last year. In the good old days, my reception was mainly snow, and it was only on a fine summer's day that it was crystal clear; now the situation is reversed

Verso

Thanks for replies Black Briar and bothyhead. To date I have been delighted with reception from Presely and am pleased that it was not my system.

Will try again when I get back.