Part of Dublin to Belfast rail line collapses

Hungerford

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dose anyone have any idea where loco 186 is?

It's in Inchicore at the moment.

Bluetonic

sdonn wrote: »

Well it can stay on the main road. If it all cuts through my estate people will be hurling eggs (no joke) , it's bad enough as it is - you cant move during term time on Yellow Walls Road, a lot of Estuary Road or Swords-Malahide Road.

Not only we will all be cutting through your estate but we will be stopping off at Angelos for chips too.

sdonn wrote: »

Driving to Malahide station from Donabate, Balbriggan etc is not the answer nor will it turn out to be what the majority will do. Most will just drive - something the M1 can just about take if they get those roadworks finished before school starts. The N1 down through Drumcondra will be an absolute and utter nightmare for the forseeable future though.

I doubt many people will continue to drive on as where are they going to park? City center parking for 3 months would dent the pocket, thats without considering petrol. There is only so much free parking in the city centre and it's already always full.

Whitehall Church and Omni are going to become giant park and ride facilities, not that they aren't used for this purpose already.

I suppose the M1 lane widening at the M50 will be fast tracked now to get it up and running in the next couple of week. Will it what!

Run_to_da_hills

Hungerford wrote: »

It's in Inchicore at the moment.

donvito99

Well, I wont be using a train in this country ever again until IE can provide me with some evidence that the whole network is safe.

Torpedo

Some more pictures from Coast Guard

http://www.facebook.com/howthcoastguard

Bluetonic

I wonder would it be more efficient to built a brand new viaduct on the Donabate side of the estuary where the rail line currently sits on the man made causeway. With this method they would work within the confines of the existing causeway in a dry environment. When complete they would remove the remainder of the causeway to allow water to flow from the tide to the estuary and visa versa. They could then create a causeway under the old viaduct which looks like it's all going to have to be replaced anyway.

chughes

There is a Dublin Bus service from Balbriggan which takes in Skerries, Rush and Lusk before heading into Dublin city. If you live in Donabate, however, the Dublin Bus service only brings you into Swords. It will be interesting to see what type of service is put in place to cater for Donabate commuters.

Bluetonic

Donabate users will get the DART from Malahide. Irish Rail today unveiled their transport system to get across the estuary, I believe weekly tickets are available.

Early indications are that it will be a big success.

chughes

Bluetonic wrote: »

Donabate users will get the DART from Malahide. Irish Rail today unveiled their transport system to get across the estuary, I believe weekly tickets are available.

Early indications are that it will be a big success.

I can see it taking off all right. Passenger numbers should soar..;)

opensourceguy

I happened to be down with my kids watching a crab fisherman when the fisherman pointed to what had happened only moments before. I took some photos and then found some photos I'd taken in October 2008 which shows how it appeared before. I've published these on my blog:

http://www.opensourcemechanic.com/blog/?p=25

Brian Capture

so what would have happened if this hadn't been spotted by the driver?

assume the next Enterprise went over it at 70 or 80 kms per hour.

Would the train have jack-knifed into the estuary? Would people trapped in carriages in the water be able to get out?

How many fatalities - 50 or 60 I'd say.

brownacid

Iarnród Éireann are working with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to provide enhanced services on existing routes serving the communities affected. Dublin Bus will enhance the No 33 routes serving the Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk and Donabate areas, including use of the Dublin Port Tunnel. Details of these services, and service arrangements for customers between Dundalk and Gormanstown, will be confirmed as soon as possible.

In addition, a rail service will operate between Dundalk/Drogheda and Skerries.



For the duration of the disruption, Belfast Enterprise services will operate with train services between Belfast and Drogheda, and with bus transfers between Drogheda and Connolly, with resulting delays.

DART services between Malahide and Howth Junction are operating normally.

Due to the severe damage to the viaduct, we regret to inform customers that the line across the estuary will not reopen for at least three months, with resulting disruption continuing.

Iarnród Éireann apologises for the inconvenience caused.


so you fingallians have some kinda plan, unless they come up with a bus eirean service from bettystown that doesnt take the old road in and is the same price as the train im stuck paying 250 quid a month on the matthews bus. Either that or matthews should introduce student fares, they are gonna clean up around this area, Id say about 500 people get the train in in the mornings and thats very conservative guess. The rush hour buses are already nearly at capacity and the run every half hour. So yeah matthews are gonna be very happy with the booming business.

Bluetonic

Brian Capture wrote: »

so what would have happened if this hadn't been spotted by the driver?

assume the next Enterprise went over it at 70 or 80 kms per hour.

Would the train have jack-knifed into the estuary? Would people trapped in carriages in the water be able to get out?

How many fatalities - 50 or 60 I'd say.

Anyone who tells you what would have happened is guessing.

There would have been a accident of some extent. Best not to dramatise things by speculating.

dubscottie

The maintenance of the trains south of the collapse should not be a major problem. IE will prob do what British Rail did when the Ness bridge collapsed in 1988, cutting of the lines North of Inverness.
For example a 201 loco North of the collapse would undergo fueling/basic servicing in Belfast and then be swapped with a fresh loco from Dublin by low-loader when more major maintenance is due.
BR had 4 or 5 low-loaders transfering locos, coaches and units by road on a regular basis for the 9 or so months it took to rebuild the bridge.

I doubt that lack of inspection is to blame as the foundations being washed away could only really be spotted by a diver.

Also the driver was right to carry on to Malahide as what if the whole embankment was washed away with the train still on it?

sdanseo

Few pics, thmubnails below so you can zoom right in at your leisure. I will get in much closer this evening, lots of IÉ staff on the embankment so I didn't want to risk climbing on top of it as some of the eiretrains folk have done in the past.

leeroybrown

dubscottie wrote: »

I doubt that lack of inspection is to blame as the foundations being washed away could only really be spotted by a diver.

It's an estuary. The bridge is completely dry at certain times dependent on the tides. Take a look at this pic posted earlier in the thread.

IIMII

SeanW wrote: »

I was just thinking, would the Tara Mines and Irish Cement works be able to send their stuff by rail from Drogheda to a port in Northern Ireland?

No, I wouldn't say so. They even had to tow the Maedbh to Belfast with enough empty wagons between her and the powered loco so as the two would not be on the Drogheda viaduct at the same time - no way the bridge would take a Tara Mines train, savage heavy

dazberry

Brian Capture wrote: »

How many fatalities - 50 or 60 I'd say.

Yes its frightening, although if Richard Harris happened to be on the train - he would have saved the last few carriages...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHLpBNQ9a3g

D.

hoser expat

brownacid wrote: »

Iarnród Éireann are working with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to provide enhanced services on existing routes serving the communities affected. Dublin Bus will enhance the No 33 routes serving the Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk and Donabate areas, including use of the Dublin Port Tunnel. Details of these services, and service arrangements for customers between Dundalk and Gormanstown, will be confirmed as soon as possible.

.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a plan. Every bus will be filled to capacity shortly after it starts its route, leaving people in Rush/Lusk etc. free to view lots of full buses passing by.

Why not send 10 buses per hour to each of the affected stations, and then have them go directly to Connolly or Tara Street? No point whatsoever in continuing to follow the 33 route.


PS - Anyone want to car share from Skerries? I'm looking for a ride and will pay my portion of all costs. City drop off point flexible (Pearse?). PM if you can help me out. Thanks.

Absurdum

Rather than "enhancing" the 33 service, surely it would make more sense to provide buses directly from affected stations direct to the city centre; eg from Drogheda/Balbriggan/Skerries etc. from the towns via the M1 and port tunnel to the IFSC and back again, since the vast majority of commuters are going to Connolly/Tara/Pearse Stations.

SMK

I haven't heard any mention of Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann honouring train tickets, especially the annual rail tickets. Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks

sk8board

Absurdum wrote: »

Rather than "enhancing" the 33 service, surely it would make more sense to provide buses directly from affected stations direct to the city centre; eg from Drogheda/Balbriggan/Skerries etc. from the towns via the M1 and port tunnel to the IFSC and back again, since the vast majority of commuters are going to Connolly/Tara/Pearse Stations.

I agree.

It won't be as possible to do this suggestion in the mornings from the towns, but in the evening they need to do it like it was a nite link; just line them up around the corner and bring round another one soon as the previous one is full (i.e.e about every 2 minutes)

looking forward to the M1 tomorrow

Absurdum

sk8board wrote: »

I agree.

It won't be as possible to do this suggestion in the mornings from the towns, but in the evening they need to do it like it was a nite link; just line them up around the corner and bring round another one soon as the previous one is full (i.e.e about every 2 minutes)

looking forward to the M1 tomorrow

true, they better be working flat out to arrange it; there's absolutely no point in packed 33's trundling through Skerries, Rush and Lusk full of people who just want to get into town

The Port Tunnel better be utilised

dcr22B

SMK wrote: »

I haven't heard any mention of Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann honouring train tickets, especially the annual rail tickets. Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks

I'm sure all will be revealed when they make a full statement on the travel arrangements for the next 3 months! I live in Lusk and I fear that there'll be a lot of full buses going past me if it's not structured properly.

Auvers

update on Irish rail website and than fcuk it looks like they are going to use the port tunnel

quote from http://irishrail.ie/news_centre/travel_alerts.asp?action=view&news_id=500

"Iarnród Éireann are working with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to provide enhanced services on existing routes serving the communities affected. Dublin Bus will enhance the No 33 routes serving the Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk and Donabate areas, including use of the Dublin Port Tunnel. Details of these services, and service arrangements for customers between Dundalk and Gormanstown, will be confirmed as soon as possible.

In addition, a rail service will operate between Dundalk/Drogheda and Skerries.

For the duration of the disruption, Belfast Enterprise services will operate with train services between Belfast and Drogheda, and with bus transfers between Drogheda and Connolly, with resulting delays.

DART services between Malahide and Howth Junction are operating normally.

Due to the severe damage to the viaduct, we regret to inform customers that the line across the estuary will not reopen for at least three months, with resulting disruption continuing.

Iarnród Éireann apologises for the inconvenience caused."

fh041205

Just want to add that I crossed the estuary around 17.15 and all seemed normal. Its a miracle it was spotted with the amount of traffic on the line at that time of day. Thank God there wasn't an accident.

This is going to be a nightmare for commuters in particular those going to Lansdowne Rd/Grand Canal. City Centre passengers won't be AS badly affected but there will be trouble.

Judgement Day

Brian Capture wrote: »

so what would have happened if this hadn't been spotted by the driver?

assume the next Enterprise went over it at 70 or 80 kms per hour.

Would the train have jack-knifed into the estuary? Would people trapped in carriages in the water be able to get out?

How many fatalities - 50 or 60 I'd say.

Let's not lose the run of ourselves here. A close shave but once the collapse happened the track circuits would have been broken - I think - and that would have brought all trains to a standstill. Why not wait for the official inquiry before anymore speculation?

A Dub in Glasgo

The rails looked intact therefore I don't think the Track Circuits would have been broken.

L1011

All the photos I've seen have shown an intact but bending track panel over the gap.

sdanseo

That doesn't mean some of the circuits didn't go although looking at the pics it seems unlikely.

As for speculation, no harm I say, what else is a forum for? The pure concrete fact is that this could have been carnage. What really makes me laugh is that there were 6 or 7 IÉ lads in orange jackets on the bridge earlier - looking at the damage. What's to say the rest of the bridge was safe if that bit can collapse?

Hungerford

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The rails looked intact therefore I don't think the Track Circuits would have been broken.

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

fh041205

So if the system here was axle counters the entire bridge could collapse into the estuary and NOBODY would know until a train plunged in?

Also, is it posssible that the bridge was structurally sound 4 days ago? (Sounds wrong but meh...) People seem to be assuming that the engineer hasn't done his job properly, no one has any proof of this.

Hungerford

Hungerford wrote: »

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

Are you sure of this? CAWS (the in-cab signalling) needs track circuits to function. The only lines I know which use axle counters are mini-CTC areas such as Mallow to Tralee, there is no CAWS on these lines.

Our man in Havana

You are 100% correct. Only mini CTC uses axle counters.

A Dub in Glasgo

fh041205 wrote: »

So if the system here was axle counters the entire bridge could collapse into the estuary and NOBODY would know until a train plunged in?

Train detection systems are there to detect a train (or absence of). It just so happens that the track circuit is a good mechanism for putting a signal back to red if there was a break in the circuit ie a broken rail.

A Dub in Glasgo

Karsini wrote: »

Are you sure of this? CAWS (the in-cab signalling) needs track circuits to function. The only lines I know which use axle counters are mini-CTC areas such as Mallow to Tralee, there is no CAWS on these lines.

I think Hungerford was saying the train detection over the bridge was track circuit and the circuit had broken because of the collapse.

kingshankly

Hungerford wrote: »

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

train can still be stopped as the driver would have received an abnormal downgrade on his caws and according to the rule book he would have rang the signalman or proceed as far as he can see the line to be clear to the next signal
a lot of speculation on here,the driver of the down train felt his train Vere while crossing the viaduct and immediately contacted the signal man who contacted the up driver who was arriving a few minutes later.he then checked the line and confirmed to the signal man to what happened.
he did not cross it.
this was a very very lucky escape and thanks to the vigilance of ie drivers prevented a major catastrophe.
with railcars running at 70 mph this could have been terrible.
as was said the track circut was not broken as the cwr(continuous welded rail)remained intact.
i can honestly say i expect the next few weeks to be crazy as there are trains leaving drogheda every 15 minutes in the morning its a lot of people to accomodate.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I think Hungerford was saying the train detection over the bridge was track circuit and the circuit had broken because of the collapse.

Yes but he also said the section around Portarlington uses axle counters, which would break the CAWS system on the Cork line. There is a blind spot at Limerick Junction but also a reduced speed limit as a result.

P_1

The next 3 months are going to be absolute hell.

I wonder of the Army (or indeed the Army of one of our EU colleagues) can fashion a bailey bridge over the estuary. I recall seeing a documentary on the Bundswher a few years ago in which they mentioned how such a structure could bear trains carrying tanks and other heavy equipment over them.

Rail services could resume after 2 to 3 weeks if they were to do that.

brownacid

This is Ireland were talking about here, any tempory solutions like a bailey bridge would ultimately become a permanent fixture.

Carawaystick

dubscottie wrote: »

I doubt that lack of inspection is to blame as the foundations being washed away could only really be spotted by a diver.

Wouldn't the diver "Inspect" the foundations?

I wonder if the an taisce types who objected to the M1 bridges being built will be out now to delay the replacement of this one seeing as it's an "environmentally friendly" rail line....

opensourceguy

Carawaystick wrote: »

Wouldn't the diver "Inspect" the foundations?

I wonder if the an taisce types who objected to the M1 bridges being built will be out now to delay the replacement of this one seeing as it's an "environmentally friendly" rail line....

If it really was built upon a 19th century wood piered structure then it is very environmentally friendly to the marine worms who eat wood piered structures.

As for divers, as others have mentioned, much of the structure is out of the water at low tides. And divers can't safely squeeze into areas in high current and the areas of the piers which were under water and underground! I'm sure there are options for electronically monitoring erosion when it is rebuilt. Maybe underwater cameras, some kind of ultrasound or electrical conductance device or laser interferometry.

Here is the most recent photo I took. I tried to take it from near the same spot I took one in October 2008 with a similar long focal length lens. Click on the photo to see this and the before photo.

Always number 1

As it stands, the 33 takes about 2 hours from Rush in the morning rush hour.
If they add additional buses, these buses will still be sitting in traffic with everyone else and will quite possibly be full before they get to Skerries or Rush and will still have to go in to Swords etc;
I don't mean to be even more negative but there is no bus lane at all and with the road works at Turvey, it will be down to one lane from practically Blakes Cross to the roundabout at the Tesco distribution place. Then when this traffic merges onto the M1 at Donabate, it will be complete mayhem. Schools are back from next Monday week which will totally exacerbate the situation.

DWCommuter

Just to speculate.

The timescale for reopening has jumped from several weeks to 3 months in the space of 24 hours. The site has yet to be cleared and close examination of the area of failure made.

A pier collapsed. We appear to know that much. What are the chances that other piers are ready to fail?

Im sorry about this, but I just dont trust IE. Accountability is not their thing. Personally I won't be surprised if the timescale and works needed change in the very near future.

As for a plan to accomodate passengers...I await convincing. What an awful mess for a company that was "rebuilding the railway".

Our man in Havana

Realistically I think it will not be open within a year.
I think a temporary bridge would be the only workable solution in the short to medium term.

Run_to_da_hills

Transport 21 on the Belfast route has now been renamed Tramsport 19

yachtsman

I think that this is really not a time for PR representatives to speak to rail users with a view to reassuring them.

Its time we heard from the Executive Chairman Dr. John Lynch, the companys top earner. The Chairman should engage in a public debate on the direction he has brought our railways during his term and what he is going to do in his remaining time to rebuild public confidence. Lets hear from the decision maker.

Glad to hear from Mr. Kenny in regard to alternative service arrangements and day to day operations but railway strategy and railway safety is led by the Board Chairman and now he must step up to the podium and not impose any more "representatives" between him and the public he serves.

positron

WEEKDAY COMMUTER SERVICES

Iarnród Éireann are working with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to provide enhanced services on existing routes serving the communities affected. Dublin Bus will enhance the No 33 routes serving the Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk and Donabate areas, including use of the Dublin Port Tunnel. Details of these services, and service arrangements for customers between Dundalk and Gormanstown, will be confirmed as soon as possible.

In addition, a rail service will operate between Dundalk/Drogheda and Skerries.

I am really keen to what the alternate arrangement is from Drogheda..! The existing Bus Éireann services are always more than half full and I am more than certain they just can not accommodate even a 10th of the rail commuters.

Those who are planning to drive - avoid Drogheda. There's road works going on Dublin road (in front of BlackBull Inn, till end of the month) is causing long tail backs on both sides even on Sundays..!

I think this is probably a good time to start a car pool point near Drogheda station..! May be those who are driving could come and pick a few from Drogheda station car park, with passengers contributing towards fuel/parking etc may be?

musicfan

I am also curious to see what options will be available to Drogheda commuters. Bus Eireann say they are putting on extra services but the express service comes from Dundalk, so that will probably be full by the time it gets to Drogheda and the bus station in Drogheda could not cope with the crowds from the train station - car park in the bus station is smaller.

They need to either have a supply of buses at teh train station that will except monthly/annual commuter tickets that will bring us to Malahide Dart Station or into the City Centre or else run the train to Skerries and have buses to bring us to malahide to continue our journey. Same on the way back.....

Either way its going to make our journeys much longer each day and I am not looking forward to the next 3 months at least . I wonder what time today IR will have their plan in place?

I don't want a refund on my annual ticket - I'd just rater use it on the alternative transport I have to use. Otherwise, I'm going to be paying at least double my transport costs for the next few months.

TaxiManMartin

Always number 1 wrote: »

As it stands, the 33 takes about 2 hours from Rush in the morning rush hour.
If they add additional buses, these buses will still be sitting in traffic with everyone else and will quite possibly be full before they get to Skerries or Rush and will still have to go in to Swords etc;
I don't mean to be even more negative but there is no bus lane at all and with the road works at Turvey, it will be down to one lane from practically Blakes Cross to the roundabout at the Tesco distribution place. Then when this traffic merges onto the M1 at Donabate, it will be complete mayhem. Schools are back from next Monday week which will totally exacerbate the situation.

A friend in IE told me that 3 months is just a guess.
Its a guess of the quickest possible time they can have the repairs done.

This does not include any contingency in case there are other problem, as the rest of the structure has not been inspected yet.

He thinks they'll make another announcement some time in the next couple of weeks stating that there is to be work carried out to stabilize other parts of the structure. And that the completion date may be pushed out about 6 months to a year more.

If you think going into the City from Drogheda etc is going to be slow, wait til you are on your way home. Its far, far slower heading North from Dublin. Dont even think about doing it in a car.

People will just have to get used to getting up earlier, and getting home later.