Part of Dublin to Belfast rail line collapses

musicfan

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

People will just have to get used to getting up earlier, and getting home later.

Already getting up at 5am/5.30am and getting home in and around 6.45pm/7pm .............

kingshankly

Drogheda commuter are probably best getting the train to skerries then a bus in to town . I think most services will still run as planed but to skerries

waraf

Bond-007 wrote: »

Realistically I think it will not be open within a year.
I think a temporary bridge would be the only workable solution in the short to medium term.

The problem with a temporary bridge in my mind is that in order for it to work you must be 100% confident that the supports it is placed on are sound. I don't think anyone has any confidence in any of the existing supports in the estuary at the moment

TaxiManMartin

musicfan wrote: »

Already getting up at 5am/5.30am and getting home in and around 6.45pm/7pm .............

The bus will probably be as fast as the train at that hour

The roads will be empty.

TaxiManMartin

waraf wrote: »

The problem with a temporary bridge in my mind is that in order for it to work you must be 100% confident that the supports it is placed on are sound. I don't think anyone has any confidence in any of the existing supports in the estuary at the moment

You are right. There will be no temporary bridge. The entire structure is going to be reinforced.

Time for bed. Very busy night last night.

Judgement Day

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just to speculate.

The timescale for reopening has jumped from several weeks to 3 months in the space of 24 hours. The site has yet to be cleared and close examination of the area of failure made.

A pier collapsed. We appear to know that much. What are the chances that other piers are ready to fail?

Im sorry about this, but I just dont trust IE. Accountability is not their thing. Personally I won't be surprised if the timescale and works needed change in the very near future.

As for a plan to accomodate passengers...I await convincing. What an awful mess for a company that was "rebuilding the railway".

Yes, I have to agree with you DW - it started with two weeks from the shell shocked, and tie-less, Barry Kenny, to three months yesterday evening and to 'at least' three months on the 9am news this morning. For 'at least' three months read mid-summer 2010?

Bluetonic

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, I have to agree with you DW - it started with two weeks from the shell shocked, and tie-less, Barry Kenny, to three months yesterday evening and to 'at least' three months on the 9am news this morning. For 'at least' three months read mid-summer 2010?

When did BK say two weeks?

Judgement Day

Sorry - just watched the clip again here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0821/9news.html

and it was not two weeks and it was not the 'shell shocked' Barry that said it. It was several weeks and attributed to an IE spokesman at the end of the piece. The point remains the same - several weeks....three months....mid 2010? A bit like the opening of the WRC in 'Summer' 2009.
I wonder if the viaduct collapse is going to put back the projected start of the new timetable on Sept.27th?

Bluetonic

The point remains the same alright, don't let the truth get in the way of an Irish Rail bashing.

Not too sure why you would need to make up time scales.

Judgement Day

Hello! - Unlike many here I am happy to admit a mistake which is why I replied to your question. There has been a lot of comment on this matter and I had misattributed/forgotten the exact quote - big deal. Irish Rail/CIE need bashing -out of existence if possible - and I certainly don't need to exaggerate things for ammunition to beat them with. :P

positron

musicfan wrote: »

I am also curious to see what options will be available to Drogheda commuters. Bus Eireann say they are putting on extra services but the express service comes from Dundalk, so that will probably be full by the time it gets to Drogheda and the bus station in Drogheda could not cope with the crowds from the train station - car park in the bus station is smaller.

They need to either have a supply of buses at teh train station that will except monthly/annual commuter tickets that will bring us to Malahide Dart Station or into the City Centre or else run the train to Skerries and have buses to bring us to malahide to continue our journey. Same on the way back.....

Either way its going to make our journeys much longer each day and I am not looking forward to the next 3 months at least . I wonder what time today IR will have their plan in place?

I don't want a refund on my annual ticket - I'd just rater use it on the alternative transport I have to use. Otherwise, I'm going to be paying at least double my transport costs for the next few months.

I agree. I think they should start services from Drogheda station car park. Actually they said Enterprise service will drop people off at Drogheda and coach transfer from there. I would like to know how they can limit that just to the Enterprise passengers..!

Not sure if taking passengers to Skerries is a good idea. Connecting to the dart line is probably more useful, imho.

I can't start to think of the horrors of coming back in Bus - around this time last year I was stuck in a bus for nearly 3 hours due to an accident in N1 somewhere..! Nightmare..!

Also, didn't hear anyone mentioning this - Would Bus Eireann and/or Mathews Coaches honor Irish Rail monthly/annual tickets for the duration of the disruption?

JDxtra

Aerial photo after the collapse here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8023558@N06/3846394062/

...and view before, from Bing.com/maps:
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=sx8rm9ggmc41&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=29499651&encType=1

Victor

JDxtra wrote: »

Aerial photo after the collapse here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8023558@N06/3846394062/

That design is rather disturbing - lose one element of the bridge and everything is ready to fall - disproportionate collapse.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=sx8ng2ggmgwc&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=29498491&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

Note the amount of material that has been scoured at the bridge and built up into a semi-submerged bank 150-300m east.

kingshankly

Judgement Day wrote: »

Sorry - just watched the clip again here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0821/9news.html

and it was not two weeks and it was not the 'shell shocked' Barry that said it. It was several weeks and attributed to an IE spokesman at the end of the piece. The point remains the same - several weeks....three months....mid 2010? A bit like the opening of the WRC in 'Summer' 2009.
I wonder if the viaduct collapse is going to put back the projected start of the new timetable on Sept.27th?

I think the new timetable was knocked on the head two weeks ago

kingshankly

All services from Dundalk and Drogheda will run as normal, any passengers at Dundalk for Dublin will get off at Drogheda where busses will run direct to Connolly station via the port tunnel any passengers to skerries or any station prior to skerries will stay on the train

Lister1

I assume that there buses running from the train station are only tying in with the enterprise time table so first bus in the morning at 8:20. Any ideas what time this would reach bus arass? Im guessing around 10:00...

jayflame

Victor wrote: »

That design is rather disturbing - lose one element of the bridge and everything is ready to fall - disproportionate collapse.

Note the amount of material that has been scoured at the bridge and built up into a semi-submerged bank 150-300m east.

Daily passenger across this bridge.
I look out the window as often as I could to take in the views (when I could actually see a window on a packed morning train). I have noticed the water current flowing underneath (between the arches) low & high tides and became familiar with the fact that there always appeared to be a stronger current around the point that has now collapsed.
Could this be that over time, the flow of water weakened the underwater "dam", therefore, weakening the foundations to the bridge supports.
I suspect it was the high tides that contributed to this and the earlier North bound train narrowly missed this collapse as the driver of the South bound train the noticed it whilst passing over it.

There are claims that there was an inspection carried out on Tuesday 18th August 2009.
Did the inspection also take into account the foundations of these supports (the dam)?

I would hazzard a guess at saying "NO".
I suspect the inspection was only "structual" by way of what was visable.

Bottom line is, bridge is down.
Now, can someone fix or replace it please, and quickly..
Please don't let the investigation delay the repair or replacement.

There are other bridges spanning a greater distance that have stood longer and carried greater loads.

Nuff said.

Victor

Lister1 wrote: »

I assume that there buses running from the train station are only tying in with the enterprise time table so first bus in the morning at 8:20. Any ideas what time this would reach bus arass? Im guessing around 10:00...

Assuming it operates express via the Port Tunnel, I would hope for earlier, but who know what the chaos will be like tomorrow.

jayflame wrote: »

Bottom line is, bridge is down. Now, can someone fix or replace it please, and quickly.. Please don't let the investigation delay the repair or replacement.

And if the repair it and it falls again?

An investigation is important, so as to prevent history repeating itself.

Carawaystick

I'd imagine M1 traffic will be back to at least Courtlough if not the Naul road Balbriggan junction. It backs to Lissenhall normally from the M50.

My few suggestions to quickly improve the traffic.
Get the M1S to M50W part of the junction opened asap and finish up the works between the airport junction and J3 of the M50

Consider using some of the long term carpark in Dublin Airport as P&R to the city - get this running for Sept after summer holiday demand dies back. DAA are using Block C for medium term parking as it is and it's usually only half full.

Put a buslane in on the R132 all along the Dual Carriageway section towards Swords. Then busses can use this to get to the Airport and onto the M1 towards DPT quickly

Put a buslane on the M1 from south of the estuary viaduct.

Make the hard shoulder an aux lane from the junction to/from Holywell. this will reduce weaving and smooth traffic flow.

IE to put in a crossover/signalling near Donabate and start running services to there. There are 2 roads into/out of the main carpark in Donabate, busses may be able to use these to come in and out of the station to head citybound. some carparking spaces might be lost but I doubt there's much demand for them at the minute....

The govt to get their finger out and manage the situation quickly. Schools are back in a week or fortnight. decisions need to be made this coming week.

kingshankly

Lister1 wrote: »

I assume that there buses running from the train station are only tying in with the enterprise time table so first bus in the morning at 8:20. Any ideas what time this would reach bus arass? Im guessing around 10:00...

No for all trains

lostexpectation

Barry Kenny said the incident was very serious and could have resulted in widespread tragedy were it not for a quick-thinking train driver.

The driver noticed signs of subsidence on the track as he was crossing at around 6.25pm.

He immediately stopped the train in Malahide and alerted Irish Rail which suspended all services on the northern line.

"He was extremely observant and he immediately raised the alert," he said, noting that the railway control centre also received a red alert on its computer system as the bridge collapsed.

from what?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/packed-train-seconds-from-disaster-in-bridge-collapse-1866930.html

lostexpectation

second hand eye wtiness

Meanwhile, long-time Malahide resident Joan McAllister, whose kitchen on Upper Strand overlooks the estuary, said her husband glanced out the window and saw two of the viaducts arches give way and collapse into the sea.

"Both tracks are gone. There are cables sticking out of the bridge and two of the arches have fallen into the water," she said. Despite the mayhem, some people in the area didn't even notice what was going on, she added. "There were people sailing on sailboards who didn't even notice," she said.

Bluetonic

Sounds like something you'd read in the independent or Herald.

Sierra Oscar

lostexpectation wrote: »

from what?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/packed-train-seconds-from-disaster-in-bridge-collapse-1866930.html

Part of the automatic signals to detect trains I would think, if the rail-line is damaged the signal will be broken and they would be able to tell something is up from that.

Just taking a guess.

musicfan

I see from the IR website (can't get link to work) that they are running buses from Drogheda Train Station every half hour in the morning direct to Connolly station from 6am and then buses from Connolly direct back to Drogheda.

Are they only going to have one bus leaving at each half hour or will they have a supply of buses and leaving whenever they fill up?

These buses are for people from Dundalk, Gormanston and Laytown as well (they have to get teh train to Drogheda) and will accept train tickets.

murphaph

Is there any valid reason for not running all trains as far as Skerries and then shuttling people to the ohter side onto trans from Malahide? track layouts/signalling could be changed in a week or so to allow this I would imagine. It would require fewer buses.

ixoy

murphaph wrote: »

Is there any valid reason for not running all trains as far as Skerries and then shuttling people to the ohter side onto trans from Malahide? track layouts/signalling could be changed in a week or so to allow this I would imagine. It would require fewer buses.

There'd be nowhere near enough capacity. Currently, it's standing room only after Portmarnock generally (especially when schools are back) and it's full shortly after that in rush hour. It could not cope with all the Northern line commuters, especially when there's a train only every twenty minutes in the rush hour period.

lostexpectation

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Part of the automatic signals to detect trains I would think, if the rail-line is damaged the signal will be broken and they would be able to tell something is up from that.

Just taking a guess.

people were suggesting above that wouldn't have gone off?

be interesting to know when it did,

ronano

I'm keeping an eye on situation but if anyone gets any information regarding ppl who would use laytown train station post it up.

musicfan

ronano wrote: »

I'm keeping an eye on situation but if anyone gets any information regarding ppl who would use laytown train station post it up.

People from Laytown are to get the limited rail service to Drogheda to pick up a bus that they are running direct to Connolly. Have a look at the IR website for links to the timetables. Likewise on the way back, bus from Connolly to Drogheda and train to laytown.

positron

musicfan wrote: »

I see from the IR website (can't get link to work) that they are running buses from Drogheda Train Station every half hour in the morning direct to Connolly station from 6am and then buses from Connolly direct back to Drogheda.

Are they only going to have one bus leaving at each half hour or will they have a supply of buses and leaving whenever they fill up?

I am wondering the same. If they just one bus every half hour, there will be a lot of disappointed commuters between 7:00 and 8:30. One morning I actually counted the number of people getting on 7:18am service (I missed the 6:58 and was sitting in 7:18 and had a view to people coming down the bridge to Platform2) and I lost count around 120 people. Even if some of them might decide to drive in, can you imagine what would be situation if they have just one coach at 7:30? :eek:

OisinDunne

musicfan wrote: »

People from Laytown are to get the limited rail service to Drogheda to pick up a bus that they are running direct to Connolly. Have a look at the IR website for links to the timetables. Likewise on the way back, bus from Connolly to Drogheda and train to laytown.

Leave Laytown - 6:45
Arrive Drogheda - 6:52

Scramble on to 7am bus.
Arrive Dublin Let's say 8am
Transfer to Dart for onward journey to Grand Canal Dock - 8:30
15 minute walk to office - 8:45

Work for 8ish hours....Leave @ 17:00
With a quick walk, back to Connolly for 17:30 bus back to Drogheda
Once again, 1 hour travel ....back in Drogheda @ 18:30

Train back to Laytown....not till 19:30
Back in Laytown @ 19:36

Compared to leaving on 7:05 train and home on 16:45 ex Pearse

This, even for Ireland, is NOT funny. :mad::mad::mad:

weldoninhio

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd imagine M1 traffic will be back to at least Courtlough if not the Naul road Balbriggan junction. It backs to Lissenhall normally from the M50.

My few suggestions to quickly improve the traffic.
Get the M1S to M50W part of the junction opened asap and finish up the works between the airport junction and J3 of the M50

Consider using some of the long term carpark in Dublin Airport as P&R to the city - get this running for Sept after summer holiday demand dies back. DAA are using Block C for medium term parking as it is and it's usually only half full.

Put a buslane in on the R132 all along the Dual Carriageway section towards Swords. Then busses can use this to get to the Airport and onto the M1 towards DPT quickly

Put a buslane on the M1 from south of the estuary viaduct.

Make the hard shoulder an aux lane from the junction to/from Holywell. this will reduce weaving and smooth traffic flow.

IE to put in a crossover/signalling near Donabate and start running services to there. There are 2 roads into/out of the main carpark in Donabate, busses may be able to use these to come in and out of the station to head citybound. some carparking spaces might be lost but I doubt there's much demand for them at the minute....

The govt to get their finger out and manage the situation quickly. Schools are back in a week or fortnight. decisions need to be made this coming week.

They are still on holidays.

OisinDunne

From http://www.irishrail.ie/contact_us/contact_ne_service_delays.asp

Customer Service Section for Northern and Eastern Routes
Welcome to the Customer Service Section for the Northern and Eastern Division.
Serious Service Delay
If you have experienced a serious delay while traveling on our services you may be entitled to a Discount Voucher.
Passengers delayed between one and two hours are entitled to a 50% refund on the affected leg of the journey.


Passengers delayed by over two hours are entitled to a full refund on the affected leg of the journey.



In order for us to process your Discount Application your ticket(s) for this journey on-line is required.
We aim to process Refund Applications within 15 working days of receipt of application. Occasionally, when serious disruptions occur, we are sometimes unable to meet our response targets. Please bear with us; we will always process your Application as quickly as we can.
In order for us to process your Discount Application please print out the Discount Application Form in PDF format (PDF File) and return the completed form by post together with your ticket(s) for this journey to:
Customer Relations Department
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Iarnród Éireann
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Telephone (01) 703 2601
Fax (01) 703 4369

batman2000

I was on the North train from Pearse and travelled over the viaduct at 18.10, while going over the train dipped and rocked to the left....I consider myself lucky

murphaph

Victor,
You posted over on RUI that the marina area was dredged about 10 years ago. I find that very interesting and reckon it is certainly at least possible that the dredging has changed water flows in the area enough to start a chatastrophic scouring around the bridge pier(s). Do you have any more details on this dredging?

cheers.

fh041205

batman2000 wrote: »

I was on the North train from Pearse and travelled over the viaduct at 18.10, while going over the train dipped and rocked to the left....I consider myself lucky

Indeed you should batman2000. I can only echo my earlier sentiments and thank Christ that everyone on that train, and yourself of course, are ok. Must have been quite a scare when you found out what had happened.

murphaph

batman2000 wrote: »

I was on the North train from Pearse and travelled over the viaduct at 18.10, while going over the train dipped and rocked to the left....I consider myself lucky

Could you tell something serious was up or was it a little jolt? You're a lucky (bat)man indeed.

Hungerford

Karsini wrote: »

Yes but he also said the section around Portarlington uses axle counters, which would break the CAWS system on the Cork line. There is a blind spot at Limerick Junction but also a reduced speed limit as a result.

They've actually replaced sections of track circuiting with axle counters at Portarlington [see IRRS journal 164] and Portlaoise [IRRS journal 168], which adds that it is now IE policy to use axle counters instead of track circuits.

A number of track circuits at level crossings during the Rosslare line resignalling were also removed and replaced with counters.

The reason? They're cheaper to install and maintain.

Our man in Havana

Are they less safer that track circuits?

Hungerford

fh041205 wrote: »

So if the system here was axle counters the entire bridge could collapse into the estuary and NOBODY would know until a train plunged in?

Correct. Axle counters only care about the number of axles in and out at each end of a section. They can't detect broken rails.

We know that the circuit on the bridge was broken because IE have stated that publicly.

Hungerford

Bond-007 wrote: »

Are they less safer that track circuits?

Like all technologies they have advantages and disadvantages.

The big advantages are that they are cheaper in general and they are ideal for signalling systems in damp places such as the Severn Tunnel in Wales. They can also reduce the instances of broken rails compared with track circuits.

The big disadvantages are that the axle counters can sometimes 'forget' that axles have passed over them, they provide no indication of broken rails and they have real difficulties keeping track of shunting movements where trains have to reverse out of the section.

My point was that they wouldn't have been able to detect the collapse as the track circuit system appears to have done.

Hungerford

yachtsman wrote: »

Its time we heard from the Executive Chairman Dr. John Lynch, the companys top earner. The Chairman should engage in a public debate on the direction he has brought our railways during his term and what he is going to do in his remaining time to rebuild public confidence. Lets hear from the decision maker.

Not going to happen. Dr Lynch has a strong aversion to the media. In recent times, he has only done one soft focus feature with a non-specialist journalist in the Indo.

murphaph

What qualifies Dr. John Lynch to run Ireland's national transport operator? I have no idea about the man's background.

Terrontress

Few people have mentioned the numbers of people on Northern Commuter trains at rush hour. If a northbound train had come off the track, the number of people onboard would have ensured nobody had a chance.

Judgement Day

murphaph wrote: »

What qualifies Dr. John Lynch to run Ireland's national transport operator? I have no idea about the man's background.

He is an FF hack who was Director General of FAS - best known these days for all the expense abuses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_F%C3%81S_expenditure_controversy

according to Rail Users Ireland he is paid €300,000.00 per annum:
http://www.railusers.ie/blog/19012009.php

and presumambly worth every cent of it. His forté is appearing at every possible CIE photo opportunity with his 'friend' Noel Dempsey - apart from this it is difficult to see what he does to earn his massive salary. Lucky it's not performance linked.

stevenmartin99

Its now 4pm and Irish Rail have still not given out much new information on the setup for tommorrow..

Use the buses.
Heres the timetables (standard)..
Extra busses will be put on...

but at least they have said rail tickets will be accepted.

nearly 48hours and this is the best they can do... The Rail wont be back running before Xmas if this is what we put up with.

Do they realise between 6 and 10am there is only 9 33 buses to the city. Thats about 900people at full capacity... And there is 11 trains between those times..

at a rought guess ( 8 carraiges? 50 per carraige? = 400)

thats 4400 people that need to get to the city... About na third ill go by car and a third are from drog+dun so they will use bus eireann but that still leaves 1500 poeple which is an extra 15buses in those 4 hours..

iv been optimitic on some of those figures too i think.

I dont see this ending pretty

musicfan

stevenmartin99 wrote: »

Its now 4pm and Irish Rail have still not given out much new information on the setup for tommorrow..

Use the buses.
Heres the timetables (standard)..
Extra busses will be put on...

but at least they have said rail tickets will be accepted.

nearly 48hours and this is the best they can do... The Rail wont be back running before Xmas if this is what we put up with.

Do they realise between 6 and 10am there is only 9 33 buses to the city. Thats about 900people at full capacity... And there is 11 trains between those times..

at a rought guess ( 8 carraiges? 50 per carraige? = 400)

thats 4400 people that need to get to the city... About half i think will go by car leaving a need of 2200 - 22buses!!

thats not including anyone on the belfast line that might come to skerries to use 33 bus.

The people from Dundalk, Drogheda, Laytown & Gormanstown are being told to use the bus from Drogheda Train Station. So the only people that are being told to use the 33 is for people from Balbriggan and after that. Those morning trains are mostly full by the time they get to Balbriggan so the people that fill the seats on the trains should take the bus from Drogheda and wont be going onto Skerries to use the 33.

It mighn't be as bad as you think

lostexpectation

i dont understand how you could not use track circuits (as well as axle counters)

Hungerford

lostexpectation wrote: »

i dont understand how you could not use track circuits (as well as axle counters)

Because if you have one, the other is redundant - you have to remember their primary function is to detect if a train is in a section, not detecting broken rails.