Part of Dublin to Belfast rail line collapses

Hungerford

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The rails looked intact therefore I don't think the Track Circuits would have been broken.

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

fh041205

So if the system here was axle counters the entire bridge could collapse into the estuary and NOBODY would know until a train plunged in?

Also, is it posssible that the bridge was structurally sound 4 days ago? (Sounds wrong but meh...) People seem to be assuming that the engineer hasn't done his job properly, no one has any proof of this.

Hungerford

Hungerford wrote: »

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

Are you sure of this? CAWS (the in-cab signalling) needs track circuits to function. The only lines I know which use axle counters are mini-CTC areas such as Mallow to Tralee, there is no CAWS on these lines.

Our man in Havana

You are 100% correct. Only mini CTC uses axle counters.

A Dub in Glasgo

fh041205 wrote: »

So if the system here was axle counters the entire bridge could collapse into the estuary and NOBODY would know until a train plunged in?

Train detection systems are there to detect a train (or absence of). It just so happens that the track circuit is a good mechanism for putting a signal back to red if there was a break in the circuit ie a broken rail.

A Dub in Glasgo

Karsini wrote: »

Are you sure of this? CAWS (the in-cab signalling) needs track circuits to function. The only lines I know which use axle counters are mini-CTC areas such as Mallow to Tralee, there is no CAWS on these lines.

I think Hungerford was saying the train detection over the bridge was track circuit and the circuit had broken because of the collapse.

kingshankly

Hungerford wrote: »

The circuits were broken but that wouldn't have stopped any train that was already in the affected section [i.e. passed the last signal before the viaduct].

What's funny is that IE have been phasing out track circuiting: certainly, the renewed section around Portarlington now uses axle counters, which simply count the number of axles going in and out of a section.

The collapse of the viaduct wouldn't have triggered the axle counters.

train can still be stopped as the driver would have received an abnormal downgrade on his caws and according to the rule book he would have rang the signalman or proceed as far as he can see the line to be clear to the next signal
a lot of speculation on here,the driver of the down train felt his train Vere while crossing the viaduct and immediately contacted the signal man who contacted the up driver who was arriving a few minutes later.he then checked the line and confirmed to the signal man to what happened.
he did not cross it.
this was a very very lucky escape and thanks to the vigilance of ie drivers prevented a major catastrophe.
with railcars running at 70 mph this could have been terrible.
as was said the track circut was not broken as the cwr(continuous welded rail)remained intact.
i can honestly say i expect the next few weeks to be crazy as there are trains leaving drogheda every 15 minutes in the morning its a lot of people to accomodate.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I think Hungerford was saying the train detection over the bridge was track circuit and the circuit had broken because of the collapse.

Yes but he also said the section around Portarlington uses axle counters, which would break the CAWS system on the Cork line. There is a blind spot at Limerick Junction but also a reduced speed limit as a result.

P_1

The next 3 months are going to be absolute hell.

I wonder of the Army (or indeed the Army of one of our EU colleagues) can fashion a bailey bridge over the estuary. I recall seeing a documentary on the Bundswher a few years ago in which they mentioned how such a structure could bear trains carrying tanks and other heavy equipment over them.

Rail services could resume after 2 to 3 weeks if they were to do that.

brownacid

This is Ireland were talking about here, any tempory solutions like a bailey bridge would ultimately become a permanent fixture.

Carawaystick

dubscottie wrote: »

I doubt that lack of inspection is to blame as the foundations being washed away could only really be spotted by a diver.

Wouldn't the diver "Inspect" the foundations?

I wonder if the an taisce types who objected to the M1 bridges being built will be out now to delay the replacement of this one seeing as it's an "environmentally friendly" rail line....

opensourceguy

Carawaystick wrote: »

Wouldn't the diver "Inspect" the foundations?

I wonder if the an taisce types who objected to the M1 bridges being built will be out now to delay the replacement of this one seeing as it's an "environmentally friendly" rail line....

If it really was built upon a 19th century wood piered structure then it is very environmentally friendly to the marine worms who eat wood piered structures.

As for divers, as others have mentioned, much of the structure is out of the water at low tides. And divers can't safely squeeze into areas in high current and the areas of the piers which were under water and underground! I'm sure there are options for electronically monitoring erosion when it is rebuilt. Maybe underwater cameras, some kind of ultrasound or electrical conductance device or laser interferometry.

Here is the most recent photo I took. I tried to take it from near the same spot I took one in October 2008 with a similar long focal length lens. Click on the photo to see this and the before photo.

Always number 1

As it stands, the 33 takes about 2 hours from Rush in the morning rush hour.
If they add additional buses, these buses will still be sitting in traffic with everyone else and will quite possibly be full before they get to Skerries or Rush and will still have to go in to Swords etc;
I don't mean to be even more negative but there is no bus lane at all and with the road works at Turvey, it will be down to one lane from practically Blakes Cross to the roundabout at the Tesco distribution place. Then when this traffic merges onto the M1 at Donabate, it will be complete mayhem. Schools are back from next Monday week which will totally exacerbate the situation.

DWCommuter

Just to speculate.

The timescale for reopening has jumped from several weeks to 3 months in the space of 24 hours. The site has yet to be cleared and close examination of the area of failure made.

A pier collapsed. We appear to know that much. What are the chances that other piers are ready to fail?

Im sorry about this, but I just dont trust IE. Accountability is not their thing. Personally I won't be surprised if the timescale and works needed change in the very near future.

As for a plan to accomodate passengers...I await convincing. What an awful mess for a company that was "rebuilding the railway".

Our man in Havana

Realistically I think it will not be open within a year.
I think a temporary bridge would be the only workable solution in the short to medium term.

Run_to_da_hills

Transport 21 on the Belfast route has now been renamed Tramsport 19

yachtsman

I think that this is really not a time for PR representatives to speak to rail users with a view to reassuring them.

Its time we heard from the Executive Chairman Dr. John Lynch, the companys top earner. The Chairman should engage in a public debate on the direction he has brought our railways during his term and what he is going to do in his remaining time to rebuild public confidence. Lets hear from the decision maker.

Glad to hear from Mr. Kenny in regard to alternative service arrangements and day to day operations but railway strategy and railway safety is led by the Board Chairman and now he must step up to the podium and not impose any more "representatives" between him and the public he serves.

positron

WEEKDAY COMMUTER SERVICES

Iarnród Éireann are working with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to provide enhanced services on existing routes serving the communities affected. Dublin Bus will enhance the No 33 routes serving the Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk and Donabate areas, including use of the Dublin Port Tunnel. Details of these services, and service arrangements for customers between Dundalk and Gormanstown, will be confirmed as soon as possible.

In addition, a rail service will operate between Dundalk/Drogheda and Skerries.

I am really keen to what the alternate arrangement is from Drogheda..! The existing Bus Éireann services are always more than half full and I am more than certain they just can not accommodate even a 10th of the rail commuters.

Those who are planning to drive - avoid Drogheda. There's road works going on Dublin road (in front of BlackBull Inn, till end of the month) is causing long tail backs on both sides even on Sundays..!

I think this is probably a good time to start a car pool point near Drogheda station..! May be those who are driving could come and pick a few from Drogheda station car park, with passengers contributing towards fuel/parking etc may be?

musicfan

I am also curious to see what options will be available to Drogheda commuters. Bus Eireann say they are putting on extra services but the express service comes from Dundalk, so that will probably be full by the time it gets to Drogheda and the bus station in Drogheda could not cope with the crowds from the train station - car park in the bus station is smaller.

They need to either have a supply of buses at teh train station that will except monthly/annual commuter tickets that will bring us to Malahide Dart Station or into the City Centre or else run the train to Skerries and have buses to bring us to malahide to continue our journey. Same on the way back.....

Either way its going to make our journeys much longer each day and I am not looking forward to the next 3 months at least . I wonder what time today IR will have their plan in place?

I don't want a refund on my annual ticket - I'd just rater use it on the alternative transport I have to use. Otherwise, I'm going to be paying at least double my transport costs for the next few months.

TaxiManMartin

Always number 1 wrote: »

As it stands, the 33 takes about 2 hours from Rush in the morning rush hour.
If they add additional buses, these buses will still be sitting in traffic with everyone else and will quite possibly be full before they get to Skerries or Rush and will still have to go in to Swords etc;
I don't mean to be even more negative but there is no bus lane at all and with the road works at Turvey, it will be down to one lane from practically Blakes Cross to the roundabout at the Tesco distribution place. Then when this traffic merges onto the M1 at Donabate, it will be complete mayhem. Schools are back from next Monday week which will totally exacerbate the situation.

A friend in IE told me that 3 months is just a guess.
Its a guess of the quickest possible time they can have the repairs done.

This does not include any contingency in case there are other problem, as the rest of the structure has not been inspected yet.

He thinks they'll make another announcement some time in the next couple of weeks stating that there is to be work carried out to stabilize other parts of the structure. And that the completion date may be pushed out about 6 months to a year more.

If you think going into the City from Drogheda etc is going to be slow, wait til you are on your way home. Its far, far slower heading North from Dublin. Dont even think about doing it in a car.

People will just have to get used to getting up earlier, and getting home later.

musicfan

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

People will just have to get used to getting up earlier, and getting home later.

Already getting up at 5am/5.30am and getting home in and around 6.45pm/7pm .............

kingshankly

Drogheda commuter are probably best getting the train to skerries then a bus in to town . I think most services will still run as planed but to skerries

waraf

Bond-007 wrote: »

Realistically I think it will not be open within a year.
I think a temporary bridge would be the only workable solution in the short to medium term.

The problem with a temporary bridge in my mind is that in order for it to work you must be 100% confident that the supports it is placed on are sound. I don't think anyone has any confidence in any of the existing supports in the estuary at the moment

TaxiManMartin

musicfan wrote: »

Already getting up at 5am/5.30am and getting home in and around 6.45pm/7pm .............

The bus will probably be as fast as the train at that hour

The roads will be empty.

TaxiManMartin

waraf wrote: »

The problem with a temporary bridge in my mind is that in order for it to work you must be 100% confident that the supports it is placed on are sound. I don't think anyone has any confidence in any of the existing supports in the estuary at the moment

You are right. There will be no temporary bridge. The entire structure is going to be reinforced.

Time for bed. Very busy night last night.

Judgement Day

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just to speculate.

The timescale for reopening has jumped from several weeks to 3 months in the space of 24 hours. The site has yet to be cleared and close examination of the area of failure made.

A pier collapsed. We appear to know that much. What are the chances that other piers are ready to fail?

Im sorry about this, but I just dont trust IE. Accountability is not their thing. Personally I won't be surprised if the timescale and works needed change in the very near future.

As for a plan to accomodate passengers...I await convincing. What an awful mess for a company that was "rebuilding the railway".

Yes, I have to agree with you DW - it started with two weeks from the shell shocked, and tie-less, Barry Kenny, to three months yesterday evening and to 'at least' three months on the 9am news this morning. For 'at least' three months read mid-summer 2010?

Bluetonic

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, I have to agree with you DW - it started with two weeks from the shell shocked, and tie-less, Barry Kenny, to three months yesterday evening and to 'at least' three months on the 9am news this morning. For 'at least' three months read mid-summer 2010?

When did BK say two weeks?

Judgement Day

Sorry - just watched the clip again here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0821/9news.html

and it was not two weeks and it was not the 'shell shocked' Barry that said it. It was several weeks and attributed to an IE spokesman at the end of the piece. The point remains the same - several weeks....three months....mid 2010? A bit like the opening of the WRC in 'Summer' 2009.
I wonder if the viaduct collapse is going to put back the projected start of the new timetable on Sept.27th?

Bluetonic

The point remains the same alright, don't let the truth get in the way of an Irish Rail bashing.

Not too sure why you would need to make up time scales.

Judgement Day

Hello! - Unlike many here I am happy to admit a mistake which is why I replied to your question. There has been a lot of comment on this matter and I had misattributed/forgotten the exact quote - big deal. Irish Rail/CIE need bashing -out of existence if possible - and I certainly don't need to exaggerate things for ammunition to beat them with. :P