911 revisited

humanji

adrian280582 wrote:

Anyway all people want is truth nothing more.

No, all people want is to be proven right, be they for or against a theory (or anything else, for that matter). The truth is usually incidental.

There's more than enough evidence to back the official story, but the evidence for the theories isn't as compelling for the simple fact that there's too many theories. The evidence is diluted and split between them. There's too many people willing to shoe-horn evidence to fit their theory instead of rethinking that theory or (shock-horror) admitting they're wrong.

Diogenes

adrian280582 wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

o dear. its easy get people to be risen..

Anyway all people want is truth nothing more.

I suggest you look searching this forum, and seeing what had already been discussed re 911. If you have any new questions please put them forward I know I number of people will be happy to address them.

I'm surprised by, for example, the number of people coming here in the last few weeks and raising the collapse of WTC 7 as if they were revealing a shocking new discovery never discussed here before.

bonkey

Diogenes wrote: »

I suggest you look searching this forum, and seeing what had already been discussed re 911.
...
I'm surprised by, for example, the number of people coming here in the last few weeks and raising the collapse of WTC 7 as if they were revealing a shocking new discovery never discussed here before.

With the volumes that have already been posted on teh subject, its virtually impossible for newcomers to discover that something has or has not been done in detail before.

Me...I'm more curious as to how the report from NIST regarding WTC7 was effectively ignored, other than that WTC7 seems to be less of a hot topic any more....with a return (full circle?) to the types of things that kicked it all off.

With 'In Plane Sight', we've a revival of Thierry Meyssan's "no plane hit the Pentagon" idea, which was one of the first commercially successful works on the whole 911 conspiracy affair.

Steven Jones continues to entertain us with yet another revival of the idea of thermite.

All that's missing is for a new release of Loose Change. Amusingly, having written that sentence, I went and checked, and wikipedia tells me that its due on September 22.

Nicola xxx

i was 22 when it happened, seems so long ago, was watching docu on channel 4 last night, will be documentaries all week on tv about 9/11.
its strange that several witnesses that saw the planes hit the towers say they were military planes, they were dark in colour, and not like commercial aircraft, many witnesses reported this on live tv on the day.
also to have 5 planes hijacked and not shot down over america is weird, they say that the flight 93 was shot down though, there was no evidence of seats or luggage or bodies,blood or dna at the site. i think bush made a mistake when he said that he saw the first plane hit, no one viewing it on tv saw the first plane till the next day! it was the 2nd plane everyone saw LIVE. i think bush and bush administration knew of this in advance.
also the pentagon is very well protected, and hundeds of cameras, yet the only footage of a plane is that missile looking one? and they have cameras on the perimeter of the pentagon, its the most protected building. weirdest thing is, if they were military aircraft, and missile at pentagon, where are the passengers? there were reports that plane landed at clevedon and 93 was part of its number, and passengers were taken to building? its was the strangest day, i stayed up till 3am watching the news

Diogenes

Nicola xxx wrote: »

i was 22 when it happened, seems so long ago, was watching docu on channel 4 last night, will be documentaries all week on tv about 9/11.
its strange that several witnesses that saw the planes hit the towers say they were military planes, they were dark in colour, and not like commercial aircraft, many witnesses reported this on live tv on the day.

So staggeringly several witnesses to a mass catastrophe reported conflicting stories. Shock horror.

also to have 5 planes hijacked and not shot down over america is weird,

The base we have to measure against 9/11is the Payne Stewart crash It took airforce jets 1hr 20m to intercept his plane, which was flying on a steady trajectory with it's transporter active. All of the Jets on 911 had crashed or hit their targets within that timeframe.

It may shock you but at no point has the US kept jets warmed up, with weapons hot on runways.

If you don't believe me, you can listen to the entire actual recordings between FAA flight controllers and NORAD here.

they say that the flight 93 was shot down though, there was no evidence of
seats or luggage or bodies,blood or dna at the site.

Thats an offensive lie. Dozens of agencies including members of 3 counties volunteer fire and emergency services, as well as the American Red Cross, spent weeks at the site. They painstakenly looked and found body parts. These people took time out of their lives as volunteers to help. Seats luggage and bodies were found.

You're essentially accusing dozens, if not hundreds of people of being complicit in the cover up of mass murder.

i think bush made a mistake when he said that he saw the first plane hit, no one viewing it on tv saw the first plane till the next day!

No lots of people on the day claimed they saw the first plane hit.

In addition are you accusing the Naudet Brothers and firefighters of house 223, who are filmed watching the first flight hit, as being complicit in the murder of their brother firefighters?

also the pentagon is very well protected, and hundeds of cameras, yet the only footage of a plane is that missile looking one?

Um protected how? The Pentagon has had missile defence only twice since it was built. During the cuban missile crisis and the anniversary of 911.

and they have cameras on the perimeter of the pentagon, its the most protected building. weirdest thing is, if they were military aircraft, and missile at pentagon, where are the passengers? there were reports that plane landed at clevedon and 93 was part of its number, and passengers were taken to building? its was the strangest day, i stayed up till 3am watching the news

The plane flew over a 8 lane highway at 9 am at a level so low it clipped lightpoles. It flew over the head of a friend of mine stuck in traffic on that junction.

Passenger parts were found, again representives of the fire departments and emergency units of several counties and states were on the scene within minutes and hours. The suggestion you are maming they are either involved or just managed to spend weeks on the site and never wondered that there were no passenger remains.

If you're going to respond to this post please don't talk about "body parts" and refer to them as "human remains" an enormous amount of work took place at the Pentagon, Shanksville and the WTC to painstakingly the identify victims of Al Qaeda, and to give their families something to get some closure. Show a modicum of respect please.

6th

Diogenes wrote: »

Thats an offensive lie. Dozens of agencies including members of 3 counties volunteer fire and emergency services, as well as the American Red Cross, spent weeks at the site. They painstakenly looked and found body parts. These people took time out of their lives as volunteers to help. Seats luggage and bodies were found.

You're essentially accusing dozens, if not hundreds of people of being complicit in the cover up of mass murder.

Its a CT Forum, try not to be so sensitive.

Diogenes

6th wrote: »

Its a CT Forum, try not to be so sensitive.

Yeah because making baseless accusations about innocent people is something that should be respected.

If you're going to make specific about lack of evidence or body parts, without supporting them, and surprised to learn people get tetchy about this loathesome assertion then you've got a pretty thin skin. Thousands of people like the American Red Cross, Volunteer EMT and Firefighters spend weeks pouring all over all three sites, firstly looking for survivors and then engaging in painstaking work trying to identify survivors. Nearly every family of every passenger got something, however small, of their loved one.

I was recently speaking to a friend of mine, who waited more than a year for proper identification of some bone fragments of her brother from the WTC so they could bury them and gain some semblance of closure.

Respect 6th is a two way street.

Black Uhlan

Diogenes wrote: »

Respect 6th is a two way street.

It would appear you are correct

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Respect+St,+Chamberlain,+Brule,+South+Dakota+57325&sll=42.563668,-105.927887&sspn=30.747869,77.958984&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=Fa6xnAIdKGwU-g&split=0&ll=43.823792,-99.324909&spn=0.001842,0.004758&t=h&z=18

It will only take you to Crazy Horse St though.

Deisekickboxing

102mins on c4 was well worth watching some wild footage...........:eek:

meglome

Just saw this, they discovered who did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isihee3PzU4

enfant terrible

squod wrote: »

Look, I've said this already. My opinion can be changed.

Maybe if someone turns up and says 'here looks at this, heres an article proving these Isreali dudes were just a couple of dicks an' a fuggin mail man.'

Maybe then we'd have a debate on our hands.
At the minute I'm not convinced. That is all.

From reading your posts i get the feeling your one of those people who like to "blame it on the Jews"

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-614338/Blame-it-on-the-Jews.html

NOT LONG AFTER THE WORLD TRADE Center attacks of September 11, 2001, the Internet teemed with legends and rumors about the cause of the tragedy. An alarming number of these legends implicated Jews in the attacks. The American website Information Times, using misinformation propagated by the Lebanon's Al-Manar Television, claimed that 4,000 Jews were mysteriously absent from their jobs at the World Trade Center on September 11. (1) This fictitious story was a clear attempt to demonstrate Jewish foreknowledge of the terrorist attacks, and possibly even blame them for planning the acts of terrorism as a means of prompting American retaliation against Israel's Muslim enemies. More fantasies about the evil intentions of Jews would follow during the coming months. In March 2002, the Saudi-Arabian daily newspaper Al-Riyadh ran an article by Dr. Umaya Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faisal University in Al-Dammam claiming that Jews kill non-Jews and use their blood to make Passover matzos. (2)

To many in the West, these claims are puzzling. However, Western Christian culture was the birthplace for many of the anti-Semitic attitudes currently expressed by Islamic extremists. The claim published in Al-Riyadh that Jews need Gentile blood for rituals, for instance, was popular in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. And even in contemporary Western culture, one occasionally finds hints of Jewish conspiracy theories, such as the common belief that Jews control the media.

The "media control" theory illustrates the difficulties involved in assessing the causes of anti-Semitic ideas. Although Jews represent only about 2% of the American population, they are dramatically prominent in the newspapers, television and film industries. The reason for this is traceable to complex social and historical factors, such as the large numbers of European Jews who arrived in the United States during the formative years of Hollywood, the cultural preferences of Jews for these occupations, and the social desire for Jews to live and work with their friends and relatives. Thus, notions of Jewish "domination" of the media aren't entirely ridiculous, but they are also far from completely rational. Jewish over-representation in the media has certainly not resulted in frequent depictions of specifically Jewish issues on television. Jews working in the media need to appeal to a broad demographic base, and hardly find it prudent to promote pure "Jewish" interests foreign to most members of their target audience. Depictions of Jewish rituals such as hat-mitzvahs and Hanukah celebrations are much less frequent than corresponding depictions of such Christian cultural hallmarks as Christmas parties and church wedding ceremonies.

To realistically assess the causes of anti-Semitic theories, we need to carefully examine the specific times and places in which the theories originated, and avoid comforting oversimplifications of complex issues.

Beginnings: The Christian and Medieval Context

Many ancient peoples such as Egyptians and Romans expressed hostility toward Jews. This hostility could properly be considered anti-semitic when is focused on perceived "Jewish" traits such as exclusiveness. Still most modern anti-Semitic attitudes can be traced to the development and eventual success of the Christian religion, although this does not necessarily indicate that Christianity has been the most important factor determining expressions of anti-Semitism. Jesus was a Jew who claimed that his mission was to fulfill Jewish law, not to replace it. His followers also understood his role in human history in terms of the Jewish scriptures collected in the Septuagint, or Greek version of the Hebrew Bible. Christianity, in its early stages, was a fringe religion embraced by small groups of both Jews and Gentiles who saw in Jesus the embodiment of an ideal religious life. (3)

Since Rome had crashed an uprising of Jewish revolutionaries in 70 CE, Christians did not wish to provoke further Roman wrath by publicly blaming the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate for the death of Jesus. Thus, the gospel authors were rather generous in their portrayals of Romans. According to the author of the Gospel of Luke, both Pilate and the Roman centurion present at the crucifixion proclaim the innocence of Jesus. Pilate even offers to release Jesus, finding he has done nothing wrong, but the Jewish crowds reject his offer (Luke 23: 4-5). (4) The author of the Gospel of John also emphasizes Pilate's failed attempts to free Jesus, and the bloodlust of the Jews in demanding his death. But John goes further in designating "the Jews" as a people different from Jesus and hostile to his mission. In John 8:44, Jesus tells "the Jews" that, far from being the children of Abraham or God, they are actually the children of Satan. (5) Jesus, of course, could not have been making an ethnic or racial classification about all Jews, since he was also Jewish. But these distinctions would be lost in later times, when Christians would be fully separated from the Judaic roots of their religion and perceive "the Jews" more readily as a separate community. Jews, as a people, would be judged guilty of deicide.

After Rome officially recognized Christianity in the 4th century CE, Judaism was its main intellectual and spiritual rival. Many of the early church fathers frequently took opportunities to denounce Jews as the main contributors to Christian heresies such as Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not fully divine), and as general obstacles to the spread of Christian faith. One of the most persistent critics of these "Judaizing" tendencies in Christian thought was John Chrysostom. In many eloquent orations, he emphasized the dangers of Jewish religious beliefs, and reminded his listeners of the role Jews played in the arrest and execution of Jesus. While John did not seem to display any deep hatred for Jews in his personal interactions with them, there is no doubt that his sermons contributed considerable ideological grist for the anti-Semites of later times. (6) Those who wished to view Jews as "Christ-killers" would often turn to Chrysostom's sermons for confirmation of their biases.

Through its early conflicts with Judaism, Christianity acquired a certain set of attitudes and doctrinal assertions regarding the inferiority of Judaism. These attitudes did not always lead to acts of hatred, and actual expressions of anti-Semitism varied greatly between times and places. Still, Christian beliefs about Jews were often far more hostile than those expressed by adherents of other religions. For instance, the Islamic conquests of the Holy Land in the 7th century and the strong Muslim presence in Spain beginning in the 8th century placed many Jews under direct Muslim political control. Many more Jews flooded into the Islamic Ottoman Empire after their expulsion from Catholic Spain in 1492. Jews did not have full political and civil rights under either Muslims or Christians, and encountered restrictions on their occupations and places of residence. There were some instances such as the attacks on the Jews of Granada in 1066 and 1090 when Muslims treated their Jewish subjects with considerable violence. Yet, their treatment as subjects of Islam seldom approached the worst moments of their lives in Christian nations. (7) There are few events in the history of the Jews in Muslim countries before the 20th century comparable to the acts of hatred and intolerance they endured in Christian Europe.

Much of the differences in fortune between the Jews of Islam and those of Christendom can be traced to the differences in perception of Jews between the two religions. Muslims knew that Jews conspired against Mohammed, but they also knew that the Jewish plots ended in failure. Jews were a nuisance, but not a serious threat to most Muslims. (8) Theoretically, Christians should also have perceived what they saw as Jewish actions against Jesus as fruitless, since alleged Jewish plots did not prevent Jesus from fulfilling his role as the Messiah. In practice, however, Christians dwelled on the sinister portrayals of Jews found in the New Testament and the teachings of the church fathers. To Christians, Jews were more likely to appear as menacing conspirators with a special mission to undermine the religious legacy of Jesus. This sinister image of Jews allowed Christians to develop various paranoid fantasies about diabolical Jewish rituals and conspiracies.

One of the racier charges against Jews resulted from, all things, the adoption of the church dogma of transubstantiation--the literal transformation of the Eucharistic bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. The magical aspects of this Church ritual spawned a variety of popular myths and legends. Not surprisingly, some of these myths involve nefarious schemes by Jews to steal hosts (and thus steal the body of Christ), and then mock or defile the host in rebellion against Christianity. According to one widely discussed account, two Jews in Passau in 1478 successfully schemed to obtain eight Eucharistic hosts. (9) They stabbed the hosts until blood oozed from them and threw them into a fire, but they would not burn. Instead, an image of the Christ child appeared, and several doves and angels miraculously escaped from the flames. This host desecration charge would resurface with slight variations many times, and would find expression in popular art of the period (see Figure 1).

[FIGURE 1 OMITTED]

However, the most sinister allegation against Jews in Medieval times was the charge of "ritual murder." According to anti-Semitic theorists, Jews kidnapped Christian children and drained them of their blood, often killing the children in the process. Jews would then use the blood to perform religious or occult rites. Some Christians maintained that Jews used this ill-gotten blood to bake Passover matzos or anoint rabbis, while others argued that Jews needed the magical powers of Christian blood to remove the foul smell allegedly inflicted upon them by God for killing the messiah. (10) Still more outlandishly, some believed that God cursed male Jews by making them weak and effeminate because of their complicity in the death of Jesus. Male Jews were supposedly so feminine that they menstruated, and required Christian blood to stop bleeding. (11)

Table 1 shows the frequency of ritual murder charges in various European countries from the 12th through the 16th centuries. The first documented ritual murder accusation occurred in 1148 in England, and spread most quickly through German-speaking Europe, partially because large populations of Jews expelled from other areas of Europe had resettled in Germanic lands. One of the most famous ritual murder charges was the Simon of Trent affair of 1475, in which a 25-year old local Jew was blamed for the unexplained death of a 2-year old boy (see Figure 2). Under heavy torture, the Jew "admitted" he had killed the boy and drained his blood for use in magic rituals. Such coerced confessions provided solutions for unresolved tragedies, and allowed neglectful or abusive parents to find scapegoats for the deaths of their children. (12) Such charges would remain common until the 16th century, when Protestant polemics labeled belief in ritual murder as Catholic superstition, helping to discredit these allegations.

[FIGURE 2 OMITTED]

The reduced number of ritual murder charges during the 14th century was not due to any decrease in anti-Semitism. Instead, new conspiracy theories about Jews spreading the Black Death temporarily distracted popular attention from ritual murder paranoia. As in ritual murder trials, torture played a prominent role in extracting bogus confessions from Jews. Subjected to actual or threatened torture, Jews confessed to spreading the deadly disease by poisoning wells and public fountains. The charges linking Jews to the onset of the plague seemed to originate in southern France and in Spain, where a large share of Europe's Jews lived prior to the expulsion edict of 1492. Soon, mob violence against Jews erupted in many European towns, including Barcelona, where 20 Jews were slaughtered and much property destroyed. (13)

We must try to understand these expressions of anti-Semitic hatred in a larger context. Most acts of violence against the Jews originated in the underclasses, and not with incitement by church or government authorities. Sometimes, in fact, mob actions against Jews were part of larger reactions against the existing order. This was certainly true of the Cossack leader Bogdan Chmielnicki, who led an uprising against Polish overlords who exploited the peasantry. Many Jews died in the Chmeilnicki uprising, but largely because they were visible targets as financial mediaries responsible for collecting payments from the peasant classes. (14) Official authorities were certainly not free of prejudice by modern standards, but they seldom condoned mob violence and often punished the perpetrators. During the height of the ritual murder accusations, for example, Austrian emperors placed Jews under their protection and sometimes explicitly forbade further ritual murder charges against them. Still, popular prejudice against Jews remained, and would nurture the development of a new kind of anti-Semitic theory in the 18th century.

The Growth of Conspiracy: Jews in the Modern World

Throughout the Middle Ages and early modern period, many anti-Semites portrayed Jews as bogeymen who plotted to harm Christians through ritual murder, well poisonings and various black arts. Those who were not inclined to attribute such magical and diabolical traits to Jews still tended to regard them as social undesirables who profited in peddling and money lending. But these ideas were not yet modern conspiracy theories, with their imagined secret networks of individuals controlling the politics and economies of entire nations. To understand how these theories arose, we need to examine the historical context of the period before and after the Enlightenment of the 18th century.

Before the late 17th century, national and religious identities were intertwined. Most people assumed (as some members of the Christian Right still do) that a nation containing people of different religious affiliations would lack the bonds of spiritual and intellectual affinity necessary to survive. For if some citizens pursued a religious identity separate from the majority faith of their nation, they would not feel the same spirit of kinship shared by their countrymen. They would worship in different places and follow different religious rituals and holidays, reducing their communal ties with other citizens and compromising their suitability for civil and military service. For all these reasons, religious minorities were considered potential sources of subversion, and did not enjoy equal rights in any country. (15)

Jews, of course, were a well-known and conspicuous minority. Partly because of the prohibitions limiting their choices of occupations and residence, and partly because of cultural and social ties characteristic of most minority groups, Jews were largely a separate people. They did not scatter diffusely across the population of Europe, but tended to concentrate within particular towns and communities. Their range of occupations was broader than contemporary accounts would have us believe, but nonetheless, large numbers of Jews did enter professions such as banking and usury. There were many factors influencing these occupational choices. Civil service positions and many other occupations were closed to Jews, and difficulties in obtaining land (coupled with the threat of expulsion by local governments) discouraged trades such as agriculture that required large investments in land and property. (16) Cultural preferences for jobs shared by other members of their community was another important consideration. Jews, therefore, were culturally distinct from the larger society in which they lived.

Beginning in the late 17th century, a new generation of political thinkers challenged existing bonds between religion and state. To a growing number of modern thinkers, society was based on a contract between rational individuals seeking to safeguard basic rights and qualities of life. One could not justify the existence of a given society based on arguments from tradition and political or religious authority. The influence of these thinkers would spread throughout Europe during the Enlightenment of the 18th century.

Enlightened Europeans often discussed their new philosophical ideas in salons or social clubs. Some of these clubs were professional associations of tradesmen, and adopted rituals of membership to establish their uniqueness. The Freemasons, originally an association of professional tradesmen such as stoneworkers (hence the name "masons"), was one such organization. With time, however, the society downplayed its professional affiliations to attract more members. By the mid-18th century, the Freemasons were primarily a philosophical club in which the latest intellectual trends would be discussed. Because of the society's relative exclusiveness and involvement in political thought, many prominent political leaders were members. Eventually, a number of other new societies would model themselves after the Freemasons, with the Bavarian Illuminati being among the most famous of them. (17)

The existence of these "secret societies" would intersect in important ways with the development of modern conspiracy theorists and their preoccupation with Jews. The democratic revolutions that swept through the West during the 18th century gave the new breed of political theorists a chance to put their ideas into practice. These revolutions caused social upheaval on unprecedented levels, and many people tried to understand the underlying reasons for the changes affecting their lives. The actual causes, of course, involved a complicated mixture of politics, religion, economics, and the contingencies of history. But most of us cannot, with any satisfaction, shake our fists in anger at impersonal social forces. We need to blame people for the perceived ills of society, and we need to imagine that these people are acting with established motives.

To many people, secret societies such as the Freemasons and Bavarian Illuminati seemed to be behind the sweeping changes occurring in their societies. After all, some prominent leaders belonged to these organizations, and political ideas were known topics of discussion at their meetings. As secret societies continued to spread and diversify across Europe, former members added to the growing paranoia by publicly "revealing" hysterically sordid details about life among their lodge brothers. (18) Their motives in spreading these exaggerated revelations varied from spite to ambitions of political favor, but in either case they filled the public mind with fantasies about secret rituals, dark oaths, and evil plots.

It was also at this time that public attention began turning toward the political rights of Jews. The ideals of the Enlightenment declared that societies should be open to participation by all men, regardless of their religion. But in practice, political leaders questioned whether Jews could become fully integrated members of their larger nations. The "enlightened despot" Joseph II granted some civic rights to Jews in southern...

squod

enfant terrible wrote: »

From reading your posts i get the feeling your one of those people who like to "blame it on the Jews"

Your wrong then. Still a good article you're posted, can't say that it appeals to me. I pointed out along with others the relevant story of possibe Isreali foreknowledge. A very close ally of the U.S.

I reckon you should allow some time for youself to read up on Freud. There's many more religions within Isreals' borders.

enfant terrible

<mod snip> This is a topic about 911. Please stick to the topic. </mod snip>

Black Uhlan

enfant terrible wrote: »

*source: MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute

First of all, nobody making an issue of religion except for you. What was previously discussed was a group of FIVE Jews/Israelis/Spies/Men/Illegal immigrants/Idiots who were acting hostile to the US by celebrating the attacks as they happened, nobody is talking about Jews generally.

I think you should read this piece from the Guardian about your propoganda source MEMRI. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker and maybe this on ADL spying from the LA Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-13/news/mn-22383_1_spy-operation

Regarding Memri

1. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.
2. The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel.
3. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."
4. the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

"The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon
.
Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.
Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.
Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian.



Looks to me like an intelligence propoganda machine.

6th

Lads please keep this on topic!

enfant terrible

Black Uhlan wrote: »

First of all, nobody making an issue of religion except for you. What was previously discussed was a group of FIVE Jews/Israelis/Spies/Men/Illegal immigrants/Idiots who were acting hostile to the US by celebrating the attacks as they happened, nobody is talking about Jews generally.

I think you should read this piece from the Guardian about your propoganda source MEMRI. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker and maybe this on ADL spying from the LA Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-13/news/mn-22383_1_spy-operation

Regarding Memri

1. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.
2. The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel.
3. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."
4. the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

"The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon
.
Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.
Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.
Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian.



Looks to me like an intelligence propoganda machine.

I gave links from the Anti-Defamation League who says its mission is:

"The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all."

"while it "[advocates] for Israel [...] with policymakers, the media and the public" and "defends the security of Israel and Jews worldwide"

Pretty clear what they do.
http://www.adl.org/about.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League

Its not like anyone believes these disgusting conspiracy theories anyway right?
http://www.adl.org/egyptian_media/old_egyptian_conspiracy.asp

enfant terrible

Black Uhlan wrote: »

I think you should read this piece from the Guardian about your propoganda source MEMRI.

Wow the Guardian attacking a group that defends Jews.

They are usually such great supporters of the Jewish people.

Black Uhlan

enfant terrible wrote: »

I gave links from the Anti-Defamation League who says its mission is:

enfant terrible wrote: »

"The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all."

"while it "[advocates] for Israel [...] with policymakers, the media and the public" and "defends the security of Israel and Jews worldwide"

Pretty clear what they do. [/quote]

The ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net in my opinion. As I mentioned previously they have been caught out in a spy scandal devoiding them of any legitimacy. If this is your main source how can you expect to get any sembelance of a broader view?

enfant terrible wrote: »

Its not like anyone believes these disgusting conspiracy theories anyway right?

It is of no relevance here what is or isn't allegedly published in an Egyptian Newspaper. Look I can see where you are coming from. Your sensibilitys have been offended because a group of Israelis motives have been questioned. We are conditioned to associate Israeli = Jew = Holocaust.

In an attempt to keep this on topic, which is 9/11 it has been suggested that Israel may have had foreknowledge of the attacks due to the extensive spy ring in operation in the US up to and after the attacks. do you have an opinion on this?

enfant terrible

Black Uhlan wrote: »

The ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net in my opinion. As I mentioned previously they have been caught out in a spy scandal devoiding them of any legitimacy. If this is your main source how can you expect to get any sembelance of a broader view?

The fact that you think the "ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net" reveals a lot about you.

"Tracking "extremists"

The ADL keeps track of the activities of various "extremist" groups and movements.[11] According to ADL Director Abe Foxman, "Our mission is to monitor and expose those who are anti-Jewish, racist, anti-democratic, and violence-prone, and we monitor them primarily by reading publications and attending public meetings …. Because extremist organizations are highly secretive, sometimes ADL can learn of their activities only by using undercover sources … [who] function in a manner directly analogous to investigative journalists. Some have performed great service to the American people—for example, by uncovering the existence of right-wing extremist paramilitary training camps—with no recognition and at considerable personal risk."[12] A person apprehended in connection to the 2002 white supremacist terror plot had drawn a cartoon of himself blowing up the Boston offices of the ADL.[13]

The ADL regularly releases reports on anti-Semitism and extremist activities on the far left and the far right. For instance, as part of its Law Enforcement Agency Resource Network (L.E.A.R.N.), the ADL has published information about the Militia Movement[14] in America and a guide for law enforcement officials titled Officer Safety and Extremists.[15] An archive of "The Militia Watchdog" research on U.S. right-wing extremism (including groups not specifically cited as anti-Semitic) from 1995 to 2000 is also available on the ADL website.[14]

In the 1990s, some details of the ADL's monitoring activities became public and controversial, including the fact that the ADL had gathered information about some non-extremist groups."


Role in arrest of potential assassins of Barack Obama

In October 2008, the ADL reportedly assisted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) by providing, on request, information on Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman (as well as their associates and contacts) and on their ties to the Supreme White Alliance. Shortly thereafter, the two men were arrested on charges of plotting to murder dozens of African Americans and plotting to assassinate President-elect Barack Obama.[16][17]


Defending other religions

As its goal is to defend not only Jews, but also "all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens," the ADL has periodically made statements against misrepresentations of other faiths. For example, when the anti-Mormon film "The God Makers" was produced, Rhonda M. Abrams, Central Pacific (San Francisco) Regional Director for the ADL wrote a critical review, including the following statement:

Had a similar movie been made with either Judaism or Catholicism as its target, it would be immediately denounced for the scurrilous piece that it is. I sincerely hope that people of all faiths will similarly repudiate "The Godmakers" as defamatory and untrue, and recognize it for what it truly represents—a challenge to the religious liberty of all.[10]


Separation of church and state

One of the ADL's major focuses is religious freedom for people of all faiths.[6] In the context of public schools, the ADL has taken the position that because Creationism and Intelligent design are religious beliefs, and the government is prohibited from endorsing the beliefs of any particular religion, they should not be taught in science classrooms: "The U.S. Constitution guarantees the rights of Americans to believe the religious theories of creation (as well as other theories) but it does not permit them to be taught in public school science classes."[7] Similarly, the ADL supports the legal precedent that it is unconstitutional for the government to post the Ten Commandments in courthouses, schools, and other public places: "True religious liberty means freedom from having the government impose the religion of the majority on all citizens."[8] The ADL has also condemned the public school Bible curriculum published by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, saying that it raises "serious constitutional problems" and "advocates the acceptance of one faith tradition's interpretation of the Bible over another."[9] The ADL opposed Proposition 8, and supported the Matthew Shepard Act.


Interfaith camp

ADL's New England Regional Office has also established a faith-based initiative called "The Interfaith Youth Leadership Program," better known as "Camp If," or Camp Interfaith. Involving teenagers of the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths, the camp brings the teens together for a week at camp where the teens bond and learn about each other's cultures. The camp has emerged as a new attempt to foster good relations between younger members of the Abrahamic faiths.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League#Role_in_arrest_of_potential_assassins_of_Barack_Obama

Yes a very scary organization.

Here is a list of groups who I consider to be "the most extremist websites on the net"

http://www.bombsecurity.com/extremists.html

squod

enfant terrible wrote: »

The fact that you think the "ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net" reveals a lot about you.

"Tracking "extremists"

The ADL keeps track of the activities of various "extremist".......................................................................

So what are we saying here. Exactly what does this have to do with the events of 9/11. I'm sure it's lovely reading n' all. But, why here?

Is this just more diversion?

enfant terrible

squod wrote: »

So what are we saying here. Exactly what does this have to do with the events of 9/11. I'm sure it's lovely reading n' all. But, why here?

Is this just more diversion?

Diversion from what, Israel's involvement in 9/11?

No i don't believe they knew anything.

Am I surprised people are involving Jews in a conspiracy?, No.

"I'm sure it's lovely reading n' all"

I was just responding to a poster if that is ok with you, who said the Anti-Defamation League was the most extremists organization on the internet.

A ridiculous statement i'm sure you'd agree.

squod

enfant terrible wrote: »

Am I surprised people are involving Jews in a conspiracy?, No.

I say it again, it's only you.

enfant terrible

squod wrote: »

I say it again, it's only you.

I thought it was you who brought up "the devious Jews might have been in on it" conspiracy?

and when it was repeatedly pointed out they were released without charge

"Look, I've said this already. My opinion can be changed.

Maybe if someone turns up and says 'here looks at this, heres an article proving these Isreali dudes were just a couple of dicks an' a fuggin mail man.'

Maybe then we'd have a debate on our hands.
At the minute I'm not convinced. That is all. "

Your opinion can't be changed, maybe if there's an article proving their innocence you'll change your mind. Maybe?

Why are you so entrenched in the idea of Israeli involvement?

Out of interest are you investigating any other Jewish conspiracies?

squod

enfant terrible wrote: »

I thought it was you who brought up "the devious Jews might have been in on it" conspiracy?

Nope it's still you. As I've told you, as others have told you.......


Whats the point..............

Mahatma coat

In an attempt to keep this on topic, which is 9/11 it has been suggested that Israel may have had foreknowledge of the attacks due to the extensive spy ring in operation in the US up to and after the attacks. do you have an opinion on this?

that is a Valid Question.

However as we have see there is no point in askin it as you have seen the response it usualy generates.


I think they may have at LEAST had some foreknoledge of the events, given that various US departments were aware of elements and it is 'alleged' that Mossad had enough of a spy ring to put the information that was presented to the Americans toghether in a more thorough manner, they may or may not have forewarned the bush Administration & their people in the tower.

however I Find the 'Religious Holiday' a bit of a strange excuse for the Jews not being there on time, Surely if you were a 'Blood Thirsty Arab' who wanted to 'Push all the Jews into the Sea' you would have checked whether or not they were havin that morning off at some point before launching your spectacular attack,

Consider

Osama : Right so ye fly into the towers just after work starts on the 11th

Atta : Ah but thats a religious holiday for the Zionist pigs

Osama : Ah goode point lad, lets do it on the 12th when we're sure they're in work.


Just sayin like

humanji

The thing about that though is that I don't think the attack was about body count. It was about making a scene. And it isn't just Jews that Osama and Co hate, but America in general too. If they wanted to make an attack against the Jews, then it'd be fairly easy for them to hit Israel.

There's also the point that the date may have been picked for a specific reason, for example like it being the phone number for the emergency services or it might have specific meaning to one of the main organisers. The fact that it may have been a holiday for some could of been incidental.

And also, how many people here knew it was a religious holiday? I only heard about that a few years ago when it was claimed that the Jews were involved in 9/11. Maybe Osama simply didn't think of it?

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

that is a Valid Question.

However as we have see there is no point in askin it as you have seen the response it usualy generates.


I think they may have at LEAST had some foreknoledge of the events, given that various US departments were aware of elements and it is 'alleged' that Mossad had enough of a spy ring to put the information that was presented to the Americans toghether in a more thorough manner, they may or may not have forewarned the bush Administration & their people in the tower.

however I Find the 'Religious Holiday' a bit of a strange excuse for the Jews not being there on time, Surely if you were a 'Blood Thirsty Arab' who wanted to 'Push all the Jews into the Sea' you would have checked whether or not they were havin that morning off at some point before launching your spectacular attack,

Consider

Osama : Right so ye fly into the towers just after work starts on the 11th

Atta : Ah but thats a religious holiday for the Zionist pigs

Osama : Ah goode point lad, lets do it on the 12th when we're sure they're in work.


Just sayin like

Yeah but as Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists they don't follow the Georgian Calender.

Secondly according to this Calender of Jewish holidays in 2001 There's no holiday on Sept 11th.

Before you make up silly claims about fake jewish holidays perhaps you should do a modicum of research MC

Just sayin like

toiletduck

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Just sayin like

Yeah I think everyone knows what you're saying.


You're not holding onto the "4000 jews not turning up for work" thing are you?

Black Uhlan

enfant terrible wrote: »

The fact that you think the "ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net" reveals a lot about you. /quote]

I'm all ears

enfant terrible wrote: »

"Tracking "extremists"

AKA spying to those without bias. Why are you so apologetic of an illegal act? What is your agenda?

enfant terrible wrote: »

The ADL

... Were caught spying on US soil. Have links (His Grandfather was prominent in the ADL) to maybe another spy Adam Pearlman of Al Qaeda, has the grandughter of arguably the most important mobster of all time (****! can't remember his name, Lucky Luciano's mate, ran Cuba pre Castro, practically owned Vegas, anyone?) anyway his grandaughter is highly active in the ADL. Can't remember what was my point was now. I tell you what, if you can find any articles critical of the might of the IDF flatlining a ghetto and murdering civilians, commiting war crimes of Christmas just gone I'll read your propoganda, otherwise I have no further interest in your soapboxing.

enfant terrible wrote: »

Here is a list of groups who I consider to be "the most extremist websites on the net"

http://www.bombsecurity.com/extremists.html

Craig Gundry, of this site ex US military too. Trust away I have no intention of doing so.

Here is a report on other false terrorists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2550513.stm

Hey, weren't they in Iraq too? Maybe they stole the Yellowcake that came from Niger? Perhaps when Saddam was in Prague meeting with Mohammad Atta or whoever it was. My guess is that it was either Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda who sent the Anthrax. Lets just bomb the A-rabs wherever we find them.

Black Uhlan

enfant terrible wrote: »

I thought it was you who brought up "the devious Jews might have been in on it" conspiracy?

NO. IT WAS VERY CLEARLY YOU. Or an ADL spokesperson, can't remember which.

The fact that "you have to make up quotes" and attribute them leads me to believe that you have nothing else to go on.

Perhaps you can answer some of the unanswered questions?

Dominik Suter of Urban Moving Systems fled the US to Israel during the investigation. What did he have to hide? And why did he turn up on an leaked FBI Terrorist Suspect list in 2002?

Why did Mossad have a small army of spies in the US their sponsor and ally in the lead up to the attacks?

What the hell were 3/5 Israeli illegal furniture removers doing celebrating the attacks? Bare in mind it was before the uninitiated knew it was in fact a terrorist attack.

DublinWriter

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Why did Mossad have a small army of spies in the US their sponsor and ally in the lead up to the attacks?

Bizarre was the fact that a number of Mossad agents were expelled from the US in the days after the 9/11 attack...it was widely reported in the media at the time and isn't tinfoil-hat stuff.

Black Uhlan

DublinWriter wrote: »

Bizarre was the fact that a number of Mossad agents were expelled from the US in the days after the 9/11 attack...it was widely reported in the media at the time and isn't tinfoil-hat stuff.

This DEA report http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm
was subsuquently leaked, makes for interesting reading.

Here is another report from sept 12th from local NJ news. It details the arrest of another Urban Moving Systems Van with explosives, according to officials http://www.nj.com/specialprojects/index.ssf?/specialprojects/index.ssf?/specialprojects/terror/vanvan12.html

squod

Black Uhlan wrote: »

This DEA report http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm
was subsuquently leaked, makes for interesting reading.

Here is another report from sept 12th from local NJ news. It details the arrest of another Urban Moving Systems Van with explosives, according to officials http://www.nj.com/specialprojects/index.ssf?/specialprojects/index.ssf?/specialprojects/terror/vanvan12.html

Earlier in the day, a transmission from the Statewide Police Emergency Network was advising police to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet Van that the FBI believed could be carrying chemical weapons. The van was described as having the words "Urban Moving System" painted on the side.
It was unclear whether this was the van being investigated on Route 3. Quoted from the above link NJ Star-Ledger (newspaper).


Are we ever going to find out about these events fully? I doubt that even in one hundred years the whole story will be told truthfully.

enfant terrible

Black Uhlan wrote: »

enfant terrible wrote: »

The fact that you think the "ADL is one of the most extremist websites on the net" reveals a lot about you. /quote]

I'm all ears


AKA spying to those without bias. Why are you so apologetic of an illegal act? What is your agenda?

... Were caught spying on US soil. Have links (His Grandfather was prominent in the ADL) to maybe another spy Adam Pearlman of Al Qaeda, has the grandughter of arguably the most important mobster of all time (****! can't remember his name, Lucky Luciano's mate, ran Cuba pre Castro, practically owned Vegas, anyone?) anyway his grandaughter is highly active in the ADL. Can't remember what was my point was now. I tell you what, if you can find any articles critical of the might of the IDF flatlining a ghetto and murdering civilians, commiting war crimes of Christmas just gone I'll read your propoganda, otherwise I have no further interest in your soapboxing.




Craig Gundry, of this site ex US military too. Trust away I have no intention of doing so.

Here is a report on other false terrorists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2550513.stm

Hey, weren't they in Iraq too? Maybe they stole the Yellowcake that came from Niger? Perhaps when Saddam was in Prague meeting with Mohammad Atta or whoever it was. My guess is that it was either Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda who sent the Anthrax. Lets just bomb the A-rabs wherever we find them.

Tried reading this but it looks like gibberish.

Are you as critical of the history of Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda as you are of Jewish organizations?

I would imagine you are more interested in the evil US and Israel.

Please try and respond in understandable English.

Mahatma coat

*******:D wrote:

Yeah but as Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists they don't follow the Georgian Calender.

Secondly according to this Calender of Jewish holidays in 2001 There's no holiday on Sept 11th.

Before you make up silly claims about fake jewish holidays perhaps you should do a modicum of research MC

Just sayin like

Well I presume the Jews have their own calender aswell.

its not my claim, its something thats been rolled out to explain why very few Jews died, they weren there, Simply because they were at synagogue that morning, ALL of them.

So if there wasnt a Holiday as had been claimed to explain the abscence of 4000 odd Jews from the WTC that morning, why werent they at work?

Maybe someone tipped them off:eek:

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Well I presume the Jews have their own calender aswell.

its not my claim, its something thats been rolled out to explain why very few Jews died, they weren there, Simply because they were at synagogue that morning, ALL of them.

So if there wasnt a Holiday as had been claimed to explain the abscence of 4000 odd Jews from the WTC that morning, why werent they at work?

Maybe someone tipped them off:eek:

The problem with this story is there's no truth in it, they did turn up for work.

Read this (although I won't be shocked when you just don't want to believe it.

toiletduck

ALL of them.

Couple must have missed the email I suppose?


Snopes