HPAT Vs The Leaving Cert. Posts moved from LC results thread

imported_guy

HPAT is a double edged sword, it can do wonders for some people, and not so good for others

lets put it this way

Student A- studies like mad, doesnt see the light of day during the 2 leaving cert years

Student B- studies but not as hard as A, socialises, has other skills such as interpersonal, and can communicate well visually and verbaly

if both students didnt study for the HPAT, chances B is going to steam roll his HPAT compared to student A, and will probably get medicine with 500 odd points, but Student A wont, and chances are student B will probably make a better doctor.

but i have to say, last year, and the years before, getting medicine was not about how smart you were, but rather how many times you did your LC, and which grind school you attended.


if you want really smart people doing medicine heres what you do

make it a requirement that you only take in people who get A1 atleast in honours math. nuff said, and points dont matter. it will take atleast 4-5 repeats for dumb people to get that high up. alot of people who get into med dont have honours math like that girl in the article someone threw around

Echani

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't want to keep dwelling on this. But the issue was never about whether you could pass medicine exams. The issue is A) why do you deserve it more than a kid who got 560 points first time round and why would you be better for medicine than that kid.

That's the bit I'm having difficulty getting my head around

Someone who got the points to meet the grade in the LC worked for it - they deserve to be there. Someone who got a 2H1+ degree and met the grade in the GAMSAT worked for it - they deserve to be there. I don't see how either deserves it more, they both overcame hurdles to get there, they were just different hurdles that require different study skills, but I'm pretty sure you need to be fairly bright to overcome either.

imported_guy

Echani wrote: »

Someone who got the points to meet the grade in the LC worked for it - they deserve to be there. Someone who got a 2H1+ degree and met the grade in the GAMSAT worked for it - they deserve to be there. I don't see how either deserves it more, they both overcame hurdles to get there, they were just different hurdles that require different study skills, but I'm pretty sure you need to be fairly bright to overcome either.

well this sums it up pretty good but i want to add this

im in W.I.T and nearly all W.I.T courses only judge you by your final year results, you can be a utter waster for first 3 and still have your shot at 1:1

and

Someone who got the points to meet the grade in the LC worked for it - they deserve to be there.

this is kinda flawed because some of the less well off kids arent able to afford good quality grind schools, so they cant do medicine.

grind schools are a big problem. well actully the point system is...

in america you have to have like minimum of 3.5 GPA, and high 20s MCAT (you only get 3 shots at this) scores, to have a shot at most med schools, and they also interview you, so if you do balls in your interview you dont get to go to med school, and also most students voulenteer in hospitals and have like 200+ hours of service... (this shows how dedicated they are to getting into medschool)

i think ireland should do interviews, interview is probably a true test and the student will clarify his motives to do medicine, because getting 600 points/good hpat probably means you went to grind school, and lets not deny this (i know there are a few people in public schools who get 600 points, but they are nowhere near as many as grindschool people, and most people in public schools get grinds too in like math/language what ever)

another flaw with medicine is that

medicine isnt in high demand its not the most saught after subject in ireland (yay arts-tards), its just that everyone who expects 570 or 600 points in LC puts it down as number one choice, and i havent seen anyone who is expecting 300 points to put it as their number one choice.... lol

drrkpd

Is this thread really

if anyone wants to reminisce about getting your offer for medicine...

or is it-

EVERYTHING about HPAT and getting medicine

and indeed everyone who wants to argue about hpat and getting into medicine??

tallaght01

Echani wrote: »

Someone who got the points to meet the grade in the LC worked for it - they deserve to be there. Someone who got a 2H1+ degree and met the grade in the GAMSAT worked for it - they deserve to be there. I don't see how either deserves it more, they both overcame hurdles to get there, they were just different hurdles that require different study skills, but I'm pretty sure you need to be fairly bright to overcome either.

The point is the kid who has 600 points hasn't had the chance to take a degree yet, and compete with you on equal terms. There's lots of degrees out there that getting a 2.1 in is in no way comparable to getting 550+ points. Nearly all those students, if given the chance, would have nailed a 1.1 but they've just been told your degree trumps their leaving cert.

Echani

tallaght01 wrote: »

The point is the kid who has 600 points hasn't had the chance to take a degree yet, and compete with you on equal terms. There's lots of degrees out there that getting a 2.1 in is in no way comparable to getting 550+ points. Nearly all those students, if given the chance, would have nailed a 1.1 but they've just been told your degree trumps their leaving cert.

I don't think I really understand where you're coming from. We're not competing for the same places if that's what you're saying.

tallaght01

What I'm trying to say, bluntly, is that it doesn't take an exceptional talent an exceptional work ethic to get a 2:1 and do well on GAMSAT I know some of our GEM entry guys did it with a few months revision).

BUt it take exceptional talent and work ethic, by and large, for a 17 year old to get 550 points in the LC.

So, I don't think places for these kids should be replaced with GEM people.

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

There's lots of degrees out there that getting a 2.1 in is in no way comparable to getting 550+ points.

I would go as far as to say most degrees are like that. 2.1's are handed out like candy these days.

tallaght01

nesf wrote: »

I would go as far as to say most degrees are like that. 2.1's are handed out like candy these days.

Someone told me way more than half of uni students get a 1:1 or a 2:1 in Ireland.

I'm not sure if we're dumbing down or if the kids are just really bright these days :P

PhysiologyRocks

I'm all for the LC. The only thing it can't measure at all is interpersonal skills, and I can't see the HPAT doing any better. It just turns the whole thing into a bit of a lottery, whereas it was measurable before.

Perhaps I'll be proven completely wrong, but I just don't see how it helps. Even repeat LCerts demonstrated their willingness to work for what they wanted. The HPAT seems a little bit of an enemy of the hardworking. I'm not saying that only lazy people are getting in now, but it allows people with lower points in at the expense of the higher LC scorers. Maybe they'll make great doctors, but so might the higher LC scorers.

The LC wasn't perfect. I just don't see HPAT helping.

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

Someone told me way more than half of uni students get a 1:1 or a 2:1 in Ireland.

I'm not sure if we're dumbing down or if the kids are just really bright these days :P

Details here: http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/index.html

You're talking about over a doubling of the number of people getting Firsts, over the past decade. Exceptions include Dentistry in UCC where even today an absurdly small percentage of people get a first!

Piste

imported_guy wrote: »

well this sums it up pretty good but i want to add this

im in W.I.T and nearly all W.I.T courses only judge you by your final year results, you can be a utter waster for first 3 and still have your shot at 1:1

and

this is kinda flawed because some of the less well off kids arent able to afford good quality grind schools, so they cant do medicine.

grind schools are a big problem. well actully the point system is...

It's not the grind schools that are the problem, it's the attitude of certain families. I went to a public school which was every bit as good as the surounding private schools (in terms of academics that is, the facilities were just alright) and managed to get the points for medicine along with at least 2 others in my year. There were a good few people got in the high 500s, without grinds. The realy problem is people who think education is for "ponces" or parents who don't see the value in it, they're the ones that need to be tackled, not the grind schools.

imported_guy wrote: »

HPAT is a double edged sword, it can do wonders for some people, and not so good for others

lets put it this way

Student A- studies like mad, doesnt see the light of day during the 2 leaving cert years

Student B- studies but not as hard as A, socialises, has other skills such as interpersonal, and can communicate well visually and verbaly

if both students didnt study for the HPAT, chances B is going to steam roll his HPAT compared to student A, and will probably get medicine with 500 odd points, but Student A wont, and chances are student B will probably make a better doctor.

but i have to say, last year, and the years before, getting medicine was not about how smart you were, but rather how many times you did your LC, and which grind school you attended.


if you want really smart people doing medicine heres what you do

make it a requirement that you only take in people who get A1 atleast in honours math. nuff said, and points dont matter. it will take atleast 4-5 repeats for dumb people to get that high up. alot of people who get into med dont have honours math like that girl in the article someone threw around

Why do you think person B will automatically do better in the HPAT? Why do you think not studying as much automatically makes you better at the areas the HPAT examines?

Also, why on earth would an A1 in honours maths make somebody a good doctor? There are other types of intelligence than maths intelligence, what about somebody who speaks several languages but does ordinary level maths?

tech77

Just reading in the indo today how it has led to a drop in female entrants from 60% to 52%.

I thought girls were meant to be the empathetic, caring ones.
I don't really get that- if anything HPAT should have been in their favour, tipping the balance even further.

Got the three questions in the paper right as well- yay me.

UCCmed09

Piste wrote: »

It's not the grind schools that are the problem, it's the attitude of certain families. I went to a public school which was every bit as good as the surounding private schools (in terms of academics that is, the facilities were just alright) and managed to get the points for medicine along with at least 2 others in my year. There were a good few people got in the high 500s, without grinds. The realy problem is people who think education is for "ponces" or parents who don't see the value in it, they're the ones that need to be tackled, not the grind schools.

the fact that there ARE private schools in your locality would indicate to me that you are in a city?in that case i dont think it makes much difference alright..most public schools in the city are very competitive and students are driven to achieve just as high marks as those in nearby private schools!
however this motivation is totally lacking once you move outside the cities..the majority of teachers are mediocre at best,barring a few, and aren't that pushed about students getting A1s...that puts these students at a disadvantage and if they need to go for grinds to secure their A1s it is also more likely that they will have to spend a large portion of their evening travelling to and from these grinds which are more than likely in the city!

drrkpd

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

That too.

I wonder if it could be said that the number of repeat students created the points race to begin with?

I know that almost all the repeat students in my year came in on 590/600 which probably made it that bit harder for the people doing it for the first time and who weren't able to get such high points.[/QUOTE


First time LC getting into medicine have increased from 59% in 2008 to 83% in 2009!!!!!!
Does anyone know the % of first time LC doing the LC???
in fact it is just over 90%!!!

you have to matriculate now and bring your points as people know- despite all the arguments surely the above is fairer??

In 2008 and before new system that meant 41% of places went to Repeat LC and in some cases I know 16% of admissions were on their 3rd LC!!!!

Certainly shows stamina and persistence but was it a level Playing field-I don't think so>

I don"t know shy people call HPAT an "aptitude" test. It is a psychometric intelligence test at speed with only Section 2 any resemblance to medicine!

Piste

tech77 wrote: »

Just reading in the indo today how it has led to a drop in female entrants from 60% to 52%.

I thought girls were meant to be the empathetic, caring ones.
I don't really get that- if anything HPAT should have been in their favour, tipping the balance even further.

Got the three questions in the paper right as well- yay me.

The "empathy" part of the HPAT is only one section and is only worth a third of the overall available marks. It's also a bit vague, a lot of the questions had multiple answers that looked correct. The other two sections tested logic and abstract/spatial reasoning which males are usually much better at.

UCCmed09 wrote: »

the fact that there ARE private schools in your locality would indicate to me that you are in a city?in that case i dont think it makes much difference alright..most public schools in the city are very competitive and students are driven to achieve just as high marks as those in nearby private schools!
however this motivation is totally lacking once you move outside the cities..the majority of teachers are mediocre at best,barring a few, and aren't that pushed about students getting A1s...that puts these students at a disadvantage and if they need to go for grinds to secure their A1s it is also more likely that they will have to spend a large portion of their evening travelling to and from these grinds which are more than likely in the city!

Ah right I don't know much about the schools outside Dublin! They should really make public schools more like my school which was just like a private school without fees.

tech77

Piste wrote: »

The "empathy" part of the HPAT is only one section and is only worth a third of the overall available marks. It's also a bit vague, a lot of the questions had multiple answers that looked correct. The other two sections tested logic and abstract/spatial reasoning which males are usually much better at.

Does that mean there are a lot of not-so-bright female book-learner types out there?
Wow.

Having said that, i always scored highly in these things but i wonder how much a high aptitude score heralds success in a course like Medicine.

Diligence and single-mindedness can't be overlooked and are arguably more important in a course like Medicine (as Tallaght said), these traits being possibly better predicted by the LC(?).

Also, I wonder would increasing the empathy/interpersonal component serve more of a purpose (arguably a more whole-hearted measure?).

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think we're better off with Hpat. You still have to score higher than the vast majority of students in the country on points to get in.

Perhaps if the leaving cert was different could go on that alone but not with current system.

I also think Engineering amongst others should have aptitude tests.

UCCmed09

Piste wrote: »

Ah right I don't know much about the schools outside Dublin! They should really make public schools more like my school which was just like a private school without fees.

yeah try county limerick haha...even the city schools in limerick are no great shakes compared to what i've seen going on in cork..and i assume dublin too!
the hpat seems to have opened the door for limerick..alot more starting med this year than i have ever heard!

Piste

tech77 wrote: »

Does that mean there are a lot of not-so-bright female book-learner types out there?
Wow.

I dunno, would you consider someone with 600 points who learned it all from a book to be not-so-bright?

UCCmed09

Piste wrote: »

I dunno, would you consider someone with 600 points who learned it all from a book to be not-so-bright?

they might be naturally bright..and then again they might just be average..and im a girl lol!i have seen both cases...

JSK 252

Piste wrote: »

I think the thinking required for honours maths and everyday logical situations are entirely different. For example, I was just OK at honours maths, I got a B2 which is alright but nothing outstanding. However I can do sudoku and those logic puzzles (you know, the "who owns the green dog" type ones) without too much hassle. My abstract reasoning's pretty bad, in the HPAT the weird shapes section threw me almost completely, I just couldn't see patterns.

So I don't think maths is a true reflection of a person's ability to reason in practical scenarios.

B2 in higher level maths I would have thought was quite good. I managed a B2 with a grind on a friday night each week and did no more work for maths each week as I didnt see the point. It was my revision for the week. If was to get the A I was to get the A if I wasnt, I didnt really bother me.

Piste

Hehe it was a bit of a fluke, I was a consistent C student who somehow managed a B.

Big_G

I feel sorry for the girl in the OP, but about 50% of the meds I know (and dentists for that matter) don't belong in medicine, some of them were as absolutely thick as the wall.

Medicine is a vocation and if you don't have an aptitude for it, then tough titties turkleton.

Whether or not the HPAT accurately measures your aptitude for medicine, I do not know. But I do know that the Leaving Cert definitely does not. Maximum points or not.

drzhivago

tallaght01 wrote: »

Another kid in the paper with 580 points who didn't get into medicine because of the HPAT.

I do genuinely think it's bad for the profession not to let these kids in.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/controversial-aptitude-test-shatters-gabrielles-dream-of-medical-school-1863060.html

+1000

nesf

Big_G wrote: »

Whether or not the HPAT accurately measures your aptitude for medicine, I do not know. But I do know that the Leaving Cert definitely does not. Maximum points or not.

Yeah but is there any real way to measure someone's aptitude for a vocation beyond letting them try it? You can try and draw abstractions and test for them but in reality most people won't really know if they're cut out for medicine until they first hit the wards etc.

Big_G

There may not be a way to measure aptitude for a vocation. But the Leaving Cert is an inadequate way of deciding who does get in and who doesn't. Yes medicine is about remembering facts and using certain well tested algorithms to diagnose and treat patients, but the best docs have an ability to think laterally. When you come across something that you've never seen before, the ability to use what you know in an unconventional way to figure out a problem is the most important thing.

The leaving cert does not test for this at all. This is what I was referring to in the previous post. Lots of meds I know are like robots, brilliant at wrote learning facts, but unable to think on their feet. One can derive this in general conversation with them. You don't need an expensive test.

tallaght01

I think it's untrue to say there are these robot medics walking about who can't interact with patients, and can only recite lists.

The standard of docs in Ireland is very good. It really is.

With med school you get the cleverest people. It's very rare to run into difficulties because you cant think laterally.

The cleverest docs tend to be the best docs. Anyone in the hospital will tell you this.

Id much rather we tested potential docs on their ability to get their head down, in the face of temptation, and get a job done. To be a good doc, you need to go above and beyond the call of duty. The type of kid who had the ability to knuckle down from 15 or 16 years of age is the type of adult who will do what it takes for their patient to get the job done.

Some test that just requires a particular type of skill, and doesn't require a particularly impressive work ethic doesn't impress me much.

I can honesty say the personality traits seen in medical students is the same seen in the general population. You get **** everywhere. But you remember it a hell of a lot more when you're sick.

There's no doubt it could be improved. But what I see are reasonable-sounding kids who've worked their nuts off being denied a place.

I would imagine most qualified docs will tell you that a clever slogger will provide better care than a less clever,less hard working person with slightly better logical skills.

Stompbox

tallaght01 wrote: »

Another kid in the paper with 580 points who didn't get into medicine because of the HPAT.

I do genuinely think it's bad for the profession not to let these kids in.

It's not 'because of the HPAT' that he didn't get a place in medicine, it's simply because he underperformed. I can't the reasoning behind why his failure to receive a place is 'bad for the profession'. Noone has yet clarified how the Leaving Cert is an adequate indication of a students prospective competence as a doctor. This student didn't make the cut, simple as. It's far more difficult to attain a high result in the HPAT than it is to do so in the Leaving Cert. At last, we have an independent examination that finally bears some pertinence to the medical profession, unlike the LC which negates the concept of self-directed learning and natural intelligence. If this kid is so clever, how come he performed so badly in a test that those who are deemed to be less intelligent in the eyes of the State, may have excelled in?

tallaght01

Sweet wrote: »

Noone has yet clarified how the Leaving Cert is an adequate indication of a students prospective competence as a doctor.

I have several times.

Sweet wrote: »

It's far more difficult to attain a high result in the HPAT than it is to do so in the Leaving Cert.

Sweet wrote: »

we have an independent examination that finally bears some pertinence to the medical profession,

How do you know that? because no one else seems to know any of the above for sure.