HPAT Vs The Leaving Cert. Posts moved from LC results thread

imported_guy

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Non-geniuses with a touch of OCD can do very well in honours maths...learn the formulae and use them in hundreds of sample questions and hey presto, you have a B1/A2 in the bag.

This is how the grind schools work. They dish out notes upon pages of notes and make you learn lots of useless stuff off by heart. That'll get you the results but is that a good way to learn? Give the fishing rod, not the fish and all that jazz.

That's the style of learning that newer med schools are trying to eliminate.

this hits the nail on the head, if you do EVERY single question in every single past math paper, you CANT fail, unless you want to. and knowing the proofs and the formulas goes a LONG way. and its just about the basic concepts, i actully thought ordinary math had alot of awkward stuff, like simpsons rule a friend was showing me, and i did this as numerical integration in my calculus class in 2nd sem in college... lol

i dont know if HPAT favours honours math, if it does, then im all for it.

and yeah the med schools are trying to bring in problem based learning which is AMAZING (i hope to be learning that way in my GEM course in the future)

in UL they present a case on monday, and your lectures are based around that usually, and they do another case on i think wednesday or something, and you get more notes about the patient and more lectures, but i still see UCC makes you glue your head to the books.

candlegrease

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

LC Physics has been continually made easier over the years to try and encourage more students to do it. College Physics is a different ball game. But fair play on the A1, i'm not saying it is easy just not as difficult as college. I did no physics for LC but got an A in HL Maths, managed an A and a B in college physics.

I think pretty much every LC subject is dumbed down, but I agree this especially applies to Physics. However, this has nothing to do with the HPAT.

TheJeanGenie

The point trying to be made is that numbers in medicine are crucial. We had a guest lecturer last year who spoke entirely about the importance of numbers in medicine. They don't want mathematical prodigies, doctors aren't perfect, but doctors shouldn't stumble when it comes to maths, they shouldn't fear it as many people do because patients will pick up on that kind of thing when vulnerable.

nesf

imported_guy wrote: »

mate, you need math to survive in life, junior cert math and ordinary level LC math doesnt get you very far...

in all honesty, i think we should have a higher c3 math requirement for medicine, just like all the lvl 8 engineering subjects, most engineers arent mathematicians either.. well none are lol.

Very little of the Honours Maths syllabus is useful outside of a small handful of Maths heavy courses at Third level and it is even less useful in real life, and this is coming from someone who did a Maths heavy course at Third Level and who finds the subject fascinating.

nesf

candlegrease wrote: »

I think pretty much every LC subject is dumbed down, but I agree this especially applies to Physics. However, this has nothing to do with the HPAT.

When I did my Leaving 10 years ago Physics had been dumbed down and the exam I did that year was far far more complex and challenging than the exam my brother took 4 years later.

It's getting to a point where people going into Third Level physics might be better off not having done Physics for the LC because the two bear almost no resemblance by this point!

imported_guy

nesf wrote: »

Very little of the Honours Maths syllabus is useful outside of a small handful of Maths heavy courses at Third level and it is even less useful in real life, and this is coming from someone who did a Maths heavy course at Third Level and who finds the subject fascinating.

well, yeah i think my statement was a little off, i think i should have said it would be relevant and handy to have it if you did a science or engineering type 3rd level course, and even medicine

ZorbaTehZ

imported_guy wrote: »

1) Neurologists who take EEGs (electro-encephalograms) are measuring
brain voltages at various points in the brain to detect how the
voltages surge around. There's normal wave motion, as well as all sorts
of types of epilepsy and other problems that can be detected by this
method. Unfortunately, the data, as they come out of the machine, are
pretty noisy. Various mathematical "filters" must be applied to see the
underlying wave phenomena. This is basically Fourier analysis on wave
forms that shows how the geometry of the complex, noisy forms is
composed of stong, underlying primitive waves.

2) Sometimes you can treat a cancer by irradiating it. Now if you just
shine a powerful beam of radiation straight through the cancer, you'll
kill it, but you'll also kill everything on both sides of it that the
beam passes through. It's much better to have a bunch of beams crossing
in 3 dimensions so that the stuff in each beam isn't killed since the
beams are weak, but all the beams go through the cancer, so it really
gets "toasted."

3) PET scans and NMR scans use many 1-dimensional scans of the body to
reproduce 2-D and 3-D views. Radiologists have to do this all the time
- use math to reconstruct a 3-D view from many 1-D views.

do you even know what Fourier analysis is? no. people who say "doctors dont use math" really grind my gears i didnt even talk about anesthesiologists yet

lets just say if i ever was to have surgery, i would want the anesthesiologist to have honours math, otherwise i'd probably refuse treatment

Using that logic we'd all need to be electronic engineers before we'd be allowed to use any kind of imaging machines...!


And no you do not need Physics to be able to get through a medical course, that discussion has been had many times in the LC forum. It is an advantage, but certainly not a requirement.

TheJeanGenie

I wonder if there are any subjects that you really NEED. I mentioned earlier maths and physics and I probably misused the term need as really I was implying they are an advantage to you. I know plenty of students who do exceptional in medicine without having done biology, again the biology exam has been watered down to almost half of what it was years ago.

Chunky Monkey

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

I wonder if there are any subjects that you really NEED. I mentioned earlier maths and physics and I probably misused the term need as really I was implying they are an advantage to you. I know plenty of students who do exceptional in medicine without having done biology, again the biology exam has been watered down to almost half of what it was years ago.

The problem I see with not having biology is not the content difficulty but the extra time you'll need to take with pre-study. Definitely agree with the watered down bit though.

So far we've needed maths (and a good dose of patience) for our evidenced based practice classes...learning how to read statistics in papers. The biggest challenge there is staying awake during the class That being said I wish we had done the probability option in maths now, again that could have cut down on the work load.

drkpower

Piste wrote: »

If the grind schools produce so many people with excellent results, then clearly they're not the "problem", it's the ordinary schools. Maybe the DOE should look at grind schools and try to base the teaching methods and ethoses of ordinary public schools on them (albeit without the fees). In my school everyone is pushed academically and they place a high emphasis on hard work, while supporting sports and music, it's non-fee paying. If my school can do it on a public-school budget then others should too.

Jaysus, no....!
Basing teaching methods on how grind schools operate is not what ordinary schools should do. The emphasis on results, specifically directed at optimising points is not what an education system should be primarily about. Sure, push people academically, but not at the expense of giving them a rounded education.

TheJeanGenie

drkpower wrote: »

Jaysus, no....!
Basing teaching methods on how grind schools operate is not what ordinary schools should do. The emphasis on results, specifically directed at optimising points is not what an education system should be primarily about. Sure, push people academically, but not at the expense of giving them a rounded education.

I totally agree. We had a lecturer last year who despised the LC for what it did to students. Grind schools merely hand the information to students to learn. This doesn't happen in college. Research is one of the most important aspects of med school, especially research without plagiarism. The only subject I can remember from my LC that helped me in this area was History, i.e doing the research topic.

ZYX

imported_guy wrote: »

lets just say if i ever was to have surgery, i would want the anesthesiologist to have honours math, otherwise i'd probably refuse treatment

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. When it comes to bein g a doctor, your leaving cert is totally and completely irrelevant. It is a means of getting into medicine and nothing more. Any consultant working in Ireland will have studied medicine for 6 years, then done at least 6 more years working, getting experience doing more exams and more study. You are saying all this is totally irrelevant!

The reality is once you start medicine you may as well rip up your leaving cert results as no one cares any more.

Piste

drkpower wrote: »

Jaysus, no....!
Basing teaching methods on how grind schools operate is not what ordinary schools should do. The emphasis on results, specifically directed at optimising points is not what an education system should be primarily about. Sure, push people academically, but not at the expense of giving them a rounded education.

Actually one of the most well known "grind schools"- the institute- has debating, drama and various sports clubs. Also there are very few grind schools in the country and they tend to be very large so of course their proportion of A1s will be higher than other schools, there are also people with perfectly average grades. Really the best grades come from schools that offer a well-rounded education. It just so happens that a lot of the best schools are private because they can afford to offer a well-rounded education with the resources they have.

Chunky Monkey

Piste wrote: »

Actually one of the most well known "grind schools"- the institute- has debating, drama and various sports clubs. Also there are very few grind schools in the country and they tend to be very large so of course their proportion of A1s will be higher than other schools, there are also people with perfectly average grades. Really the best grades come from schools that offer a well-rounded education. It just so happens that a lot of the best schools are private because they can afford to offer a well-rounded education with the resources they have.

We're talking more about the style of 'teaching' rather than the extra curricular activities. Couple of my friends went to the tute for weekend grinds and nabbed a few extra sets of notes for the rest of us. The English notes comprise of quotes from the texts that they expect you to learn off by heart. Yes we need to quote the pieces on the paper but we are supposed to decide on those for ourselves when giving our own opinion, not the institutes opinion.

There's something a bit 1984 about that.

nesf

imported_guy wrote: »

well, yeah i think my statement was a little off, i think i should have said it would be relevant and handy to have it if you did a science or engineering type 3rd level course, and even medicine

I don't know, my sister is doing graduate medicine and she did Pass Maths for the LC and isn't having any trouble dealing with the stats modules. The mathematics done in Medicine are trivial compared to those done in other science modules and some Engineering courses (and rightly so since complex calculus etc are of little use to a GP).

whadabouchasir

imported_guy wrote: »

, lets put it this way, ive never heard of someone applying for a grant/loan studying medicine

There are quite a few of them including myself.I'm starting Medicne and I have both a loan and a part time job to pay for it.

drkpower

Piste wrote: »

Actually one of the most well known "grind schools"- the institute- has debating, drama and various sports clubs. Also there are very few grind schools in the country and they tend to be very large so of course their proportion of A1s will be higher than other schools, there are also people with perfectly average grades. Really the best grades come from schools that offer a well-rounded education. It just so happens that a lot of the best schools are private because they can afford to offer a well-rounded education with the resources they have.

Perhaps my understanding of a "grind school" is different to yours. By the very label they are given, a grind school is predominantly focussed on "grinding" the student to a high point leaving cert. Regardless of funding, that ethos does not foster a rounded education. No matter how many debating or music clubs you have, if the overwhelming focus is on points, the student ultimately loses out.

This is a less the fault of the grind school; they merely fill a need that exists. It is more the fault of the system that demands that prosepctive medical students obtain practically perfect leaving cert results. Lunacy.

tlev

Well I for one believe the HPAT is good thing as it shows an ability to somewhat think beyond what is crammed down your throat in school. I enjoyed my LC and got a decent result of 500 (Let down by French and Economics lol) points but a great deal of the course came down to learning off things by heart, formulae, proofs, poetry answers, definitions etc.

At least this test will give those a chance who do well and can think a bit too. Granted doing medicine requires you to learn tomes and tomes of anatomy and whatnot but I think being a good doctor goes beyond being able to memorise everything in sight. Hopefully it will encourage more Irish people to think about doing medicine as currently I don't believe there are enough Irish doctors in this country (no I am not racist or have anything against foreign doctors but why shouldnt there be Irish doctors in Ireland)?

As for the HPAT being unfair to those who dont do the extra course, when is life fair? The bankers and property developers took our money, thats not fair either. If you think about it the LC isn't fair either because those who can afford to go to the likes of the institute on average do better than those who don't. I looked at a sample HPAT test as my brother wants to do medicine, he is in 5th year now and it wasn't anything that someone who is able to get 600 points shouldnt be able to do. Heck my brother could do the multiple choice in a few minutes.

ANTONEDEROAST

....Thanks Anne Marie!

May I ask a simple one please?

Question: How did the top HPAT percentiles fare in L.C.points?

I'm trying to ascertain if there were many tops or near tops in both.

Perhaps the "league toppers" in the various med inst'ns could give an indication and I appreciate that not all applied for med. Conversely, anyone not travelling the med road could also forward info also if ok.

This, hopefully will assist in some small way past, present and future HPAT followers (direct and indirect).

Thank You,

..............A de R...............

bbb123

Hi guys, can anyone tell me if a high iq is all that's necessary to do well in the hpat or if you just have to do loads of practise.
Just in fifth year at the moment and thinking about medicine, haven't even looked at a sample paper yet to be honest.Thanks

nol980

bbb123 wrote: »

Hi guys, can anyone tell me if a high iq is all that's necessary to do well in the hpat or if you just have to do loads of practise.
Just in fifth year at the moment and thinking about medicine, haven't even looked at a sample paper yet to be honest.Thanks

I think a high IQ will get you through section 1. Section 2 requires a wide vocabulary and empathy, learned or not. I would say s3 is 100% practice, not a chance I'd have been able for one of them otherwise.

ZombieMed

Gotta say, a high IQ just means that you have the potential to learn/understand something, and maybe it clicks quicker for you than someone else. Having gone through medical school I can tell you that there were a range of people there, anyone who lacked slightly in the smarts department made up for it in the amount of study they did (everyone needs to be smart to get in, stay in, and needs to study).

Everyone prepared for the GAMSAT (in my case), and I know that people who prepared a little less ended up with the scores to get in, but a smaller choice of colleges. If you're in leaving cert you're probably doing loads of essays so don't need to practise those, but in order to take full advantage of time etc. you need to be able to bang them out within the time limit. So really timed practice is needed. Getting the hang of what answers are expected of you in humanities also comes from practice, even if it's just to find that you're perfect to start with.

When you're in, it's the amount of study you did (even for people who claimed to have eidetic memories).

drrkpd

As regards HPAT like all exams preparation can help. You can be very bright but if you get your timings wrong and dont answer questions on time  you cannot achieve your best. The examination is based on the Australian medical entry one and it is no surprise that the companies that prepare students fron Australia have been in the Irish market from the beginning. A quick search of these forums looking for partners in m******y preparation course will point you in their direction. The conclusion was that section 3 can be taught so that is why that section has a lower weighting. Please note that the HPAT is not an aptitude test for Medicine. No such test exists as different skills are required for different Medical professions.

A further thought comes from Zombie Med - you work hard to get in and you work hard to stay in!!