Time to overhaul the FREE travel scheme?

jahalpin

With the serious cuts currently being proposed by An Bord Snip which will have negative effects on the lives of the hard working, taxpaying population, it's about time the FREE travel system which seriously overhauled or cancelled altogether.

For example, a weekly Dublin Bus ticket costs 27euro (140 4euro a year), whereas the people on FREE travel passes obviously don't pay anything and the amount that is paid to the CIE group companies for them is a total joke. The passes also work on DART, Luas and Intercity trains. A return from Dublin - Killarney costs between 70 and 84euro, whereas these people pay nothing

Most countries do not provide free travel to OAP's. For example in the UK, our closest neighbour both physically and culturally, does not offer free travel, but special concessionary fares on trains and buses.

Please don't go on about how "these people worked all their lives and paid taxes etc" as they are getting pensions and several other benefits.

With an aging population the situation will only get worse as the amount collected in fares will reduce as these people get their FREE travel passes.

Victor

There is some benefit in providing it on off-peak services - the transport companies get some money for otherwise empty seats, the passengers gets to where they want to be and hte government is providing a facility to its pensioners.

However, Brennan's desicion to allow pensioners use peak servcies just means that services end up being fuller at peak times and less full at off-peak.

AlekSmart

However, Brennan's desicion to allow pensioners use peak servcies just means that services end up being fuller at peak times and less full at off-peak.

It is next to impossible to modify or even manage that which you cannot quantify....:rolleyes:

Just look at what developed when the Northern Ireland Office/Translink sought definitive figures relating to Seamus Brennans grand-plan for 32 Free Travel.......well,as can be seen today,what the Northern Ireland Authorities were prepared to offer on the back of the figures supplied by the Republics Negotiation team is far short of 32 County Free Travel for ALL DSFA customers....

Try and get a figure for the number of extant valid DSFA Passes then X reference that figure with the numbers of PERSONS supposedly covered by the DSFA scheme.......Scary Stuff !!!! :P

kumate_champ07

Victor wrote: »

There is some benefit in providing it on off-peak services - the transport companies get some money for otherwise empty seats, the passengers gets to where they want to be and hte government is providing a facility to its pensioners.

However, Brennan's desicion to allow pensioners use peak servcies just means that services end up being fuller at peak times and less full at off-peak.

pensioners use buses/trains during the late morning/ afternoon.I see less of them during peak hours

Cleopatra12

DSW 'flash' passes should be replaced by the newer cards which are being scanned on Dublin Buses. The amount of fake DSW passes is unreal! I have heard stories of people using cornflake boxes to recreate them! I have no prolem with OAP's having free transport, i just cannont stand the abuse of the system!

SwirlsAllAround

I think it's brilliant that we can give our elderly free transportation, and I think it can really enhance people's lives. It's definitely one of the nicest policies in Ireland...

I would agree that having an off-peak system would be a better idea in theory. In practice though I haven't really noticed a huge increase in elderly bus pass users during peak times anyway. I think if you have a choice you will avoid peak time travelling, simply because it isn't very nice when it's very busy.

As for the cost, these buses and trains are running anyway, so I can't see it making a big difference if there were no bus pass users onboard. Obviously the free travel scheme could be seen as a loss of potential income, but I think if there was a charge for using transport, they might travel less. And this would be a big pity.

Our elderly people deserve free transportation and we have little else to offer them.

mikemac

I see a lot of younger people with them
I assume they are on disability allowance.

Many of the passes are battered when I've seen people flash them, could be years old or even fake.

Victor

Besides a pension, rent allowance, free phone, free heating ....

Cleopatra12

mikemac, there are loads of fake ones floating about.... Its a disgrace, but there is not much that can be done other than overhaul the system and issue new passes that can be digitally tracked. I am not au fait as to how this could be done, but i bet its cheaper to leave the system the way it is than to incurr the cost of overhauling it!

slimjimmc

Victor wrote: »

Besides a pension, rent allowance, free phone, free heating ....

no free phone... its an allowance of €26 per month towards your calls bill, it won't pay for installing a line or buying a mobile.
no free heating... there's a fuel allowance of €20 per week which can also be claimed by many other sw recipients such as long term unemployed, single parents, etc.
TV licence is free but you pay for the TV and cable/sky/freesat yourself.


I don't see the free travel scheme as being a significant drain on public funds as I don't believe it is as widely used as one might thiink. Many pensioners who have a car would prefer that mode and many rural pensioner wouldn't have access to public transport anyway. Of those who do take the bus/train/LUAS I imagine that most journeys are short (do shopping, see family) and long distant trips rare. Also, a good few recipients wouldn't be physically able to use public transport especially as they grow older.

By all means stamp out any fraudulent use, otherwise I think it's a fine service.

marmurr1916

jahalpin wrote: »

Most countries do not provide free travel to OAP's. For example in the UK, our closest neighbour both physically and culturally, does not offer free travel, but special concessionary fares on trains and buses.

Scotland offers free travel on local and long-distance buses to over 60s and has done since April 2006.

People with disabilities can also get free bus travel and, in some cases, qualify for a companion card.

Scotland also offers reduced fares on buses, trains and ferries for young people from 16-18 (up to 25 if they're full-time volunteers).

Over 60s and people with disabilities travel free on local bus services in England:

Free local bus travel
What is it?
People aged over 60 are entitled to a bus pass to travel free on local bus services at off-peak times. You can get one from your local council, or your Passenger Transport Executive (PTE) if you live in a major city. Eligible residents in Greater London can use their Freedom Passes for free travel throughout the Greater London area.

From April 2008 this will be improved to allow free off-peak travel on any local bus anywhere in England.

Richard Elloway used his free travel pass to travel free from Land's End to John O'Groats in 2008.

di2772

I think its great that we give something back to the people whos blood, sweat and tears paid for the much improved life we have in Ireland nowadays.

How sad, pathetic and selfish is anyone who forgets about our old folk?

bmaxi

jahalpin wrote: »

Please don't go on about how "these people worked all their lives and paid taxes etc" as they are getting pensions and several other benefits.

Why have a debate about something and not include relevant data? I'm pretty sure if I had been able to invest the money I paid in taxes and PRSI during my working life, in a private pension scheme, I would be considerably better off than I am now.
I have a free travel pass and while I agree that more could be done to combat abuse, the idea of pensioners descending en masse on Connolly or Busaras is rubbish. I doubt I have used my pass more than a dozen times since I got it. Most of these have been for hospital appointments and yes, whether you like to hear it or not, my generation probably paid for the hospital too and no, I don't begrudge you the use of it.

AlekSmart

Any attempt to debate the DFSA Free Travel Scheme usually commences from the premise that it`s the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Just for clarity we need to be clear that there are several OTHER DSFA clients who qualify for FRee Travel entitlements.

I most certainly would NOT countenance a withdrawal or reduction in the Free Travel entitlement of OAP`s...Full Stop!

That being said..we need therefore to analyse those other pass-holders....at the last count we appeared to have circa. 600,000 DSFA Holders,a figure which potentially translates into 1,200,000 INDIVIDUALS entitled to Free-Travel in Ireland....That is seriously scary stuff to fund....before we start to delve into the murky waters of large-scale fraudulent issues.

Scotland offers free travel on local and long-distance buses to over 60s and has done since April 2006.

Over 60s and people with disabilities travel free on local bus services in England:

Whilst both of the above statements re the UK and Scotland are True,they fail to address the huge financial problems brought about by the UK Governments 2005 decision to extend "Concessionary" travel countrywide.

Given that the UK Free-Travel scheme is funded locally rather than by central government,the many and various Local Authorities have had a largely tough time finding the MONEY to pay for "Free-Travel" for users,often from outside their own areas.

For example many Local Authorities were forced to make swingeing cutbacks in Public Libraries,Health Education and services to the disadvantaged in order to meet the UK Governments directives on "Concessionary" travel.... :rolleyes:

Those who draw such comparisons between the UK and ourselves really do need to delve further into the FUNDING of Public Transport and other public services in that juristiction.

Dare we mention Private Dwelling RATES..Poll-Taxes,Community Charges or whatever they are now called,in addition to the long established Utility charges payable locally.

Put simply there is NO such thing as a FREE Lunch....somebody`s paying someplace...!

From my perspective those in non-OAP categories should be required to pay SOMETHING,no matter how little as it serves to at least underline that what they are availing of is a SERVICE and should be regared as just another Entitlement !!

I`m almost certain there is no direct Irish translation for the word "Concessionary"

jahalpin

bmaxi wrote: »

Why have a debate about something and not include relevant data? I'm pretty sure if I had been able to invest the money I paid in taxes and PRSI during my working life, in a private pension scheme, I would be considerably better off than I am now.
I have a free travel pass and while I agree that more could be done to combat abuse, the idea of pensioners descending en masse on Connolly or Busaras is rubbish. I doubt I have used my pass more than a dozen times since I got it. Most of these have been for hospital appointments and yes, whether you like to hear it or not, my generation probably paid for the hospital too and no, I don't begrudge you the use of it.

The money that people pay in PAYE does not go towards their pension, the taxes collected are used to run the country. The PRSI payments are used to pay for things like healthcare, pension and other social payments inc unenployment benefit etc..

Tax is basically the charge for living in the country.

The capital costs of the hospitals are actually the smallest and least relevant costs in the scheme of things, it is the current costs of running them that are the problem and which the current taxpayers are having to pay for.

Zebra3

There was an old lady sitting beside me on an IC service the other day who was on her mobile telling someone how she'd come up to Dublin on her free pass to get her hair done.

Load of Brown Thomas bags with her too.

Some OAPs deserve free travel. Others don't.

Capt'n Midnight

integrated ticketing means we can change the passes to electronic ones that are a lot harder to fake,

alkev

jahalpin wrote: »

Most countries do not provide free travel to OAP's. For example in the UK, our closest neighbour both physically and culturally, does not offer free travel, but special concessionary fares on trains and buses.

Please don't go on about how "these people worked all their lives and paid taxes etc" as they are getting pensions and several other benefits.

With an aging population the situation will only get worse as the amount collected in fares will reduce as these people get their FREE travel passes.

They have paid taxes all their lives and at a much higher rate then you are paying the moment. Why not gas the lot of them, think of the savings then. some day you will be old (if you are lucky) I wonder what your attitude will be then. Given the selfish tone of your post I guess I know.
If you want give the UK and an example get your facts right. They do get free travel (in their own region) eg people who live in Liverpool get free on Merseyrail and busses which covers a large area. They also get these passes at 60

markpb

alkev wrote: »

Why not gas the lot of them, think of the savings then.

It's great to be able to have a rational discussion.

Dyr

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

DSW 'flash' passes should be replaced by the newer cards which are being scanned on Dublin Buses. The amount of fake DSW passes is unreal! I have heard stories of people using cornflake boxes to recreate them! I have no prolem with OAP's having free transport, i just cannont stand the abuse of the system!

True, every single junkie I see boarding a bus has a "bus pass"

GeeNorm

I would agree that it likely costs very little in lost fares.

However, if for (wild guess) example, it takes 100 staff at 40,000 per annum to run the scheme then that would be €4m per annum.

I would guess that the problem for the government is that if you start monitoring it properly, getting accurate figures and stamping out abuse etc then the staff levels and costs start to get out of hand for what is supposed to be a cheap, handy system.

bmaxi

jahalpin wrote: »

The money that people pay in PAYE does not go towards their pension, the taxes collected are used to run the country. The PRSI payments are used to pay for things like healthcare, pension and other social payments inc unenployment benefit etc..

Tax is basically the charge for living in the country.

The capital costs of the hospitals are actually the smallest and least relevant costs in the scheme of things, it is the current costs of running them that are the problem and which the current taxpayers are having to pay for.

I'm sorry, it's my age you see, I'd completely forgotten there was no infrastructure or services to pay for in my time, sure weren't we all whittling sticks on the backs of hay wagons. Thanks also for putting emphasis on direction of current expenditure, I'd never have figured that one out.

serfboard

GeeNorm wrote: »

I would guess that the problem for the government is that if you start monitoring it properly, getting accurate figures and stamping out abuse etc then the staff levels and costs start to get out of hand for what is supposed to be a cheap, handy system.

I have often wondered why it isn't monitored properly. For instance, certain private operators are allowed to claim for free travel persons on their services. Now, If I was a private operator suffering a little in these recessionary times, what would stop me bumping my numbers a little ... or even a lot?

I'm all in favour of free travel. However, I favour electronic cards:

1. to check the card's validity
2. to check the validity of numbers submitted by transport companies and
3. to properly monitor the cost of the facility.

AlekSmart

Good to see a smidgin of rational discussion on this topic,although it is teetering on the brink of the Twirlies Vs The rest of the world....:)

(Twirly = UK Public Transport Speak for Pass Holders attempting to use their concessions BEFORE the commencement time..."Am I tooearly for the Pass" )

I'm all in favour of free travel. However, I favour electronic cards:

1. to check the card's validity
2. to check the validity of numbers submitted by transport companies and
3. to properly monitor the cost of the facility.

I would agree with Serfboard`s points BUT would also underline that this is EXACTLY the system utilised by Translink in the "other juristiction".

Incredibly our Minister Brennan and his "Departmental "Team" were somewhat miffed when the Northern Ireland Office and Translink would not simply agree to an oul annualized Lump Sum to cover the "estimated useage" of their Public Transport systems by citizens of the Republic.

This is why qualifying persons (OAP Pass Holder ONLY-No Spousal entitlement) must apply for and use the Translink Contactless Card-complete with inbuilt photo-id).

Unfortuantely for Cap`n Midnight`s theory....

integrated ticketing means we can change the passes to electronic ones that are a lot harder to fake,

I.Ticketing wont make a blind bit of difference IF the underlying Free Transport Scheme itself is not able to dovetail with it.

It is beyond belief that we have spent almost €40 Million on an Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group over 6 years and still not have a single new Integrated product.

Yet during the lifetime of this ITIG we sent representatives to our neighbour in the full expectation that THEY would dumb down their own VERY efficient automated system simply to allow a Politician to pull a stroke by announcing 32 County Free Travel for all DSFA "Customers".

The Bus Atha Cliath ticketing system is fully capable of delivering a far more secure environment for the DSFA but it will entail the complete withdrawal of the old (CHEAP N Cheerful) coloured stripe Butter Voucher and it`s replacement by a renewable periodic chipped card.

This would at a stroke allow for a far more selective type of concessionary travel,perhaps localized or on certain routes at certain times but always having a far more useful real-time aspect to system analysis.

Although Bus Atha Cliath had such a card ready for trialling several years ago,it was unacceptable to the DSFA that they would be asked to pay approx 70c per card...penny wise-pound foolish....but given the events since then,hardly surprising ?

As for the UK....alkev sez....

They do get free travel (in their own region) eg people who live in Liverpool get free on Merseyrail and busses which covers a large area. They also get these passes at 60

This is essentially true but since 2006 the UK Government extended the Concessionary Travel scheme countrywide BUT it remains funded by the Local Authorities themselves.

This is proving to be a very serioous drain on cash for some Local Authorities in places such as Cornwall,parts of Wales and many other "resort" areas who have large amounts of over 60`s visiting their manor and seeking "Free Travel" whilst not actually residing and paying taxes there.....this is a problem which is leading to some quite serious cash-flow situations as Councils seek funds to meet their centrally imposed committments.

Additionally in some parts of the UK accusations of "dubious practices" are being levelled at the larger Private Sector operators who may be massaging ridership numbers or otherwise seeking to maximize their "Free-Travel" compensatory payments.......:eek:

Victor

GeeNorm wrote: »

I would agree that it likely costs very little in lost fares.

As indicated, the potential for fraud is vast. No only that, but there is the suspicion that the department isn't paying its fair share. However, we can't say seeing as there are no numbers available.

I would guess that the problem for the government is that if you start monitoring it properly, getting accurate figures and stamping out abuse etc then the staff levels and costs start to get out of hand for what is supposed to be a cheap, handy system.

this would be balanced by the increased collection of fares that are incurred, but not collected.

serfboard wrote: »

I have often wondered why it isn't monitored properly. For instance, certain private operators are allowed to claim for free travel persons on their services. Now, If I was a private operator suffering a little in these recessionary times, what would stop me bumping my numbers a little ... or even a lot?

I understand that payments are made on a semi-fixed basis, i.e. surveys are done and payment made in a lump sum based on those figures, witht he department getting a solid discount.

I'm all in favour of free travel. However, I favour electronic cards:

1. to check the card's validity
2. to check the validity of numbers submitted by transport companies and
3. to properly monitor the cost of the facility.

It does seem to make sense. Teh department is dragging its feet though.

AlekSmart

It does seem to make sense. Teh department is dragging its feet though

.

For sure it is......however that footdragging may be symptomatic of something deeper.

The most interesting aspect of the collapse of the "Tendering Process" for Integrated Ticketing is the lack of information on what exactly caused the successsful tenderer to be rejected AFTER clearing 95% of the entire process.

The explanations at the time were suitably vague,with much "Commercial Confidentiality" and suchlike clauses being solemnly invoked by poker faced anonymous senior executive types.

This is what has left us with several years of an Implementation Group with sod all produced to actually implement :mad:

However I suppose that in the context of whats developed since then,the Integrated Ticketing fiasco is small beer.

However,for me it serves as yet another warning that we need some serious re-appraisal of what constitutes "Good Governance" Irish-Style :P