a bit rich?

Zulu

All experience is relevant in raising a child.
To suggest the personal experience of a parent is irrelavent to the raising of their child is a little bazaar.

nozzferrahhtoo

I suggested NO such thing and you wont find me suggesting it either. Stop putting words in my mouth on top of the other lies you have told in this thread.

What I HAVE said is that you can not name one of these relevant experiences that one parent can have that the other can not. This is the question you have been avoiding, and that you are now putting words in my mouth to avoid it shows how desperate you are. Why not just be honest and say you dont have one.

Zulu

So you would admit that the personal experience of the parent is relevant in raising their child?

Also, while I feel it's very much intentional, in the off chance it's not, your tone is quite aggressive. Care to tone it down? There is no reason we all can't be polite.

nozzferrahhtoo

Polite is answering questions people ask you, which you still haven’t done. Too hard for you I guess. It takes some gall to suggest I should be polite when you have lied to me, put words in my mouth AND constantly avoided answering the one question I have been asking you. And now in this post instead of answering you try to make it sound like I have “admitted” something I have been saying all along. Are you just trolling here?

Pot, meet kettle.

Zulu

All I did was ask you to be polite. Do worry about it if you don't want to. I've been nothing but polite over the past few days, and I apologise if I was rude earlier in the thread.

Now in fairness, you suggest I'm not answering your questions, but I am. And in fairness, in my last post I asked you a question, which you didn't answer.

Do you believe that the personal experience of the parent is relevant in raising their child? I ask this as "personal experience" was an answer I gave you, but I got the distinct impression that wasn't acceptable to you. You wanted specific examples, no? (BTW, I didn't realise this was something you were saying all along - so was I, how interesting)

Oh and don't call me a troll please, it's rude.

nozzferrahhtoo

Zulu,

This is an entirely false accusation as I have answer this question BEFORE you asked it. I just do not appreciate being asked the same question over and over when it has been answered. Especially by someone who has been asked the same question over and over and has ignored it. As I said pot, meet kettle and I see no reason to subscribe to your evaluations of my politeness when you act in said manner. You simply are not in a position to comment on me in this fashion at this time. My manners and patience have been impeccable in the fact of your past lies, insertion of words into my mouth, and refusal to answer my question continuously in trolling fashion. (Troll 101 behaviour in fact is to keep stating the same thing over and over while avoiding a direct question about it over and over).

I will repeat my position once more for you, despite your false accusation that I never said it before. There are MANY personal experiences a person can have that is relevant to child upbringing. Clearly not every experience a person has is relevant, but many are.

This is true whether this is in a one parent family, a two parent family, or a two same sex parent family. I have never denied this, and have openly said it, and yet you sit here asking me again and again if this is my position and even coming out with phrases like you have got me to “admit” it.

No, my issue is with you suggesting that there is some experience that can be brought to the table by two sexes that is somehow precluded from 2x1 sex. In other words, when you say that one configuration is “ideal” what are you basing it on. What experience relevant to child upbringing is a same sex couple precluded from bringing to the table, that an opposite sex couple is not.

This is the question I have asked over and over, in many different ways, and which you have not answered. You have both ignored it AND in some cases said you have no interest/intention in answering it. My conclusion is frankly that you wont because you cant.

So I will ask one more time for the, what, 10th time? 20th? I don’t know any more:

Name for me some experiences; relevant to successful child upbringing, that one sex can have that another sex is precluded from.

Care to answer THIS time? Sheesh.

zenith

Please cease namecalling and personalised attacks.

Attack the post, not the poster.

Next time is bans.

Zulu

How do you determine which personal experiences are not relevant though? You can't, as you can't predict what will happen during a childs life. Hence as broad an experience as possible is "ideal".

The fact that men & women are different (see linked document as sample evidence of this) implies that their experience of life differs. This is a logical assumption, which you are free to dispute. I am not bothered to search for evidence of this, however, generally people will accept that each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives. If men and women perceive the world differently, as is suggested in the linked document, then it's reasonably safe to conclude that their experiences differ. The experiences of puberty is an example of one thing that will differ greatly between men and women. Actively engaging in society and social circles is another.

Now if we are talking about ideals, I'm suggesting that the broadest experience is ideal, and the combination of both sexes would suggest the broadest experience.

On the subject of manners, you continue to call me a troll, and that's rude. In the past few days, I've been nothing but polite & I've answered your questions again, and again as I have here again. I might suggest that because you don't like an answer I've provided doesn't make it any less of an answer.

nozzferrahhtoo

Zulu,

I do not know how you determine this as it is not my position in the first place. It is YOU telling ME that there are experiences relevant that can only be obtained in the “ideal” configuration. If this is your position then give me examples of the experiences you mean and tell me how YOU evaluate what is relevant.

It is not for me to explain you position for you, I am the one who is trying to understand what it is you are telling us on here.

EVERYONE is different. Therefore ANY two people will have a broad range of experiences. You say this yourself “each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives”. This supports a two parent family only, not a two parent family of any particular configuration of sexes. In fact if you were to follow your own reasoning to its conclusion you are actually arguing that three parent family would be better again, and a four again, and so on as the more parents in the family configuration the more experiences being brought to the table. This argument makes an absurdity of itself therefore as “the broadest experience” would come from the broadest number of participants. Your own words followed to their conclusion. Question: Do you personally support polygamy, as you have provided a very good argument for it here whether intentionally or not.

The question therefore is if there are any experiences relevant which one couple can have that another can not. Since neither of us can think of any, it appears to be entirely irrelevant and your entire premise of this “ideal” falls apart as you have offered literally nothing to support it.

However if you are “not bothered” to seek evidence for your own positions as you say here then I think this says more about it than I can, or would. You have said everything for me and unless you do come up with something new, I have nothing more to learn from you on this topic and I can only thank you for your time thus far.

You clearly decided to ignore Zenith above by commenting on manners. I will not reply to this part of your post as I respect the moderators wishes and will let that aspect of the conversation drop.

I still can not find you answering the question I asked you. Are you aware of ANY experience one sex can have that the other can not that is relevant to child rearing?

Zulu

I think I explained my position clearly enough in my previous post, and I've offered evidence (previously) to support that position, and I've given you examples as you requested. In fact any time I give you something you request, you simply demand something else!

As to whether or not I support polygamy, while it's OT, I'll say I don't particularly have a problem with it. Why? Why does that matter???

nozzferrahhtoo

I never said it mattered, but one way to check if you are understanding a persons position is to check if you understand the inferences of it, and you have made what could be seen as a stronger argument for polygamy in a childs upbringing than you have for a 2 sex 2 person configuration.

Since I can not find you explaining your own position very well can I see if I have it right so far? Correct me if I am wrong on any of the following:

Since there are some experiences that are relevant when coming to bringing up children, you wish to give the child the most broad range of experiences possible ‘just in case’ some of them are relevant. To this end you think that a 2 sex parental configuration ‘just in case’ there is one or more experiences that one sex can have that ‘might’ be relevant, despite the fact that after weeks of asking you are entirely unable to name even one and hence your entire position is based on a ‘maybe’ or hedge betting of a sort.

Would this be an accurate assessment? If so then there is little else to discuss as I reject the assertion based on the fact that it’s all based on an unsupported maybe which you are completely unable to establish as even approaching fact, but at least I understand your position and why I reject it. I do not reach my conclusions based on maybes, I reach them based on what we know to be true.

My own position on child upbringing is that all a child needs is: Education, security, nurture, love and safety. I see nothing in a 2 or 1 sex configuration of 2 parents that can provide any of these in a more “ideal” fashion than the other, nor have you offered me any. So that appears to be that in terms of what is available to be learnt from this discussion and there is nowhere it can go from here.

Should you find yourself capable at any time of actually putting forth an example of one such relevant experience I do hope you return to the thread as it would allow the conversation to proceed past this point, as there would then be some actual evidence for your assertions. I wait agog to hear from you on this matter in the future.

nozzferrahhtoo

Zulu wrote: »

I've given you examples as you requested.

My request was for an example of an experience a woman can bring or a man can bring that is relevant to the upbringing of a child.

If in fact you DID give me such an example can you give me the post number it is contained in because I can not find it, and all I can find is posts where you did not give an example, told me you have no intention of giving an example, and asking me to tell you how you should evaluate such an example.

Actually giving me an example I can not find however and I question the accuracy of you saying you did. Post # please.

Zulu

Again, you've missed the point. What is "ideal" and what a child "needs" are different.

You accuse me of putting words in your mouth; of telling you your position, and yet you do exactly that to me. Would you not extend that courtesy to me also? And no, your assessment of my position is inaccurate.

I've explained my position here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62215481&postcount=109
That post also includes examples of the "relevant experience" you continue to request & ignore. (Post number 109)

nozzferrahhtoo

Putting words in someones mouth is saying they said something they didn’t. I did no such thing. I ASKED you was my assessment correct thus far and to correct me where it was wrong. A WORLD of difference. You are going out of your way to attack now, even when it makes no sense. Please stick to the topic as Zenith requested. If my assesment is wrong tell me where, rather than just going off on one at me.

109 contains no answer to my question. It is just saying that you think the broader the range of experience the better. That is all. You have said NO more than this in the post.

However since ALL people are different ANY 2 people can have a broad range of experience. Therefore ANY 2 people is “ideal” as your only criteria is that the experiences should be BROAD. ANY 2 people will have different ones to any other 2 people. You have given no reason to suggest that the broadness should include any certain criteria.

The point is you are specifically saying the 2 people have to be male and female because there MIGHT be something one experiences that the other can not. This is a might.

The question I have asked is can you name me any such experience, or an example of such, which might support this case and elevate it over a MIGHT.

Frankly you cant or wont do it.

As I said, we have exhausted this. When you can come up with an example come back to me and we can go further. Right now we are going in circles.

Zulu

Please note two examples highlighted in red:

Zulu wrote: »

How do you determine which personal experiences are not relevant though? You can't, as you can't predict what will happen during a childs life. Hence as broad an experience as possible is "ideal".

The fact that men & women are different (see linked document as sample evidence of this) implies that their experience of life differs. This is a logical assumption, which you are free to dispute. I am not bothered to search for evidence of this, however, generally people will accept that each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives. If men and women perceive the world differently, as is suggested in the linked document, then it's reasonably safe to conclude that their experiences differ. The experiences of puberty is an example of one thing that will differ greatly between men and women. Actively engaging in society and social circles is another.

Now if we are talking about ideals, I'm suggesting that the broadest experience is ideal, and the combination of both sexes would suggest the broadest experience.

On the subject of manners, you continue to call me a troll, and that's rude. In the past few days, I've been nothing but polite & I've answered your questions again, and again as I have here again. I might suggest that because you don't like an answer I've provided doesn't make it any less of an answer.

nozzferrahhtoo

All of us regardless of sex engage in society and go through puberty. So really these two examples are not relevant in that they are not something one sex can bring that the other can not.

I would be curious how you think men and women engage with society differently. Are we back to you thinking that there is a way men should act and a way women should act here again? Society is about people, men and women are equally people, and therefore I see no significant difference in how they should act in society. I’m really agog to hear where you are going with that one.

Similarly what aspects of puberty do you think are significantly different in that we need to experience them in order to provide an “ideal” upbringing. What experience is required here that mere knowledge can not impart?

I clearly asked you for an experience that is unique to only one sex that is relevant to child rearing that therefore imply that we need both sexes in the mix.

Zulu

Oh dear. Men and women experience puberty differently. That's simply a fact of nature. A man will not have the experience a woman will have of her first period or of pregnanacy.

Men and women engage in society differently. A group of 13 year old boys behave differently to a group of 13 year old girls.

Again, being equal doesn't mean we are all the same. Men and women are different (see evidence provided) but equal. I never suggested otherwise.

This is going round in circles so quick I'm getting sick!

nozzferrahhtoo

Again I see no reason to think you need to experience these things to help an adolesent through it. Most of the experiences are the same anyway, if not all, as the important parts is knowing that your body changes, your emotions go haywire and you need understanding and love at this time.

Further you do not need to experience such things to help people through it. People who help lepers do not need, nor would they benefit from, having been lepers themselves would they?

The experience you name is superfluous, and I do not see it adding to any “ideal”.

Similarly there is no significant different in societal groups at that age to warrant this requirement either. Mostly girls and boys act the same in situations with one another. They meet, they make friends, they get even closer to some, they sneak alcohol, drinks and go dancing, you name it. What difference in how they act are you referring to? Again are we back to you thinking there is some way men and women do or should act, despite the fact we are all equal in this society?

Nah, as you said we are going around in circles. You are being vague to the point of absurdity on what these experiences are, and how they support such an ideal. I do not see this ideal, and you are not showing it. Nor do I ever see the relevance of it to anything if you did establish it anyway as if were to move the conversation on to something more specific like whether gay adoption should be allowed, this appeal to an “ideal” would be irrelevant anyway. Firstly it would be irrelevant to gay adoption itself, but (if established which I said you have not) more of an argument that while adopting the gay parents would be better adopting their own sex. Secondly the "ideal" is irrelevant when viewed in the greater context of it being a much preferable scenario than single parent adoptions which are currently allowed.

Therefore as I said I am not sure where to go with this. You have established neither the ideal which you speak of, nor do I see any relevance to it even if you had. It has become pointless.

Zulu

See:

Zulu wrote: »

Again, you've missed the point. What is "ideal" and what a child "needs" are different.

nozzferrahhtoo

Exactly, which is why I said that not only have you not established this ideal very convincingly, but I also see zero relevance for it even if you had. As I said before when someone espouses a view contrary to my own I explore it with them and I have learned as much (or in this case little) as I can from you on this it seems. Unless you have anything else to offer I have nothing else to add.

Zulu

See:

Zulu wrote: »

How do you determine which personal experiences are not relevant though? You can't, as you can't predict what will happen during a childs life. Hence as broad an experience as possible is "ideal".

The fact that men & women are different (see linked document as sample evidence of this) implies that their experience of life differs. This is a logical assumption, which you are free to dispute. I am not bothered to search for evidence of this, however, generally people will accept that each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives. If men and women perceive the world differently, as is suggested in the linked document, then it's reasonably safe to conclude that their experiences differ. The experiences of puberty is an example of one thing that will differ greatly between men and women. Actively engaging in society and social circles is another.

Now if we are talking about ideals, I'm suggesting that the broadest experience is ideal, and the combination of both sexes would suggest the broadest experience.

On the subject of manners, you continue to call me a troll, and that's rude. In the past few days, I've been nothing but polite & I've answered your questions again, and again as I have here again. I might suggest that because you don't like an answer I've provided doesn't make it any less of an answer.

nozzferrahhtoo

As I said, you have not established the „ideal“ and you have not established it is even relevant, saying yourself that the „ideal“ is far from what a child might actually „need“. You even ask me, despite it being your position, how we should evaluate what experiences are needed at all.

So if it is not established and not relevant and you do not even know how to evaluate it yourself and I have said I have learned all I can, I fail to see the use of repeating posts previously posted, especially as I replied to it already detailing what was my issue with it. Maybe you are enjoying the dizzy circles and want to keep them going.

But thanks anyway.

Zulu

Again see:

Zulu wrote: »

How do you determine which personal experiences are not relevant though? You can't, as you can't predict what will happen during a childs life. Hence as broad an experience as possible is "ideal".

The fact that men & women are different (see linked document as sample evidence of this) implies that their experience of life differs. This is a logical assumption, which you are free to dispute. I am not bothered to search for evidence of this, however, generally people will accept that each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives. If men and women perceive the world differently, as is suggested in the linked document, then it's reasonably safe to conclude that their experiences differ. The experiences of puberty is an example of one thing that will differ greatly between men and women. Actively engaging in society and social circles is another.

Now if we are talking about ideals, I'm suggesting that the broadest experience is ideal, and the combination of both sexes would suggest the broadest experience.

nozzferrahhtoo

What is the use of repasting things you have posted already? Am I to re paste my reply to that, you yours to that again, me mine to that again and so on back around the loop?

If you have nothing to say then say nothing, I am not about to pander to sequentially regurgitating the thread however.

Zulu

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am not about to pander to sequentially regurgitating the thread however.

What? We've been doing exactly that for, how many pages now? 4? 5?

nozzferrahhtoo

And so I am done unless you have anything to add.

Zulu

You're not really though, are you? :pac:..............

nozzferrahhtoo

Fraid so

Zulu

I knew you weren't. :pac:...