Piquet - give him a second chance?

supremenovice

Just read Nelsons post sacking statement and he gives some fair points about his lack of testing and inferior car compared to Alonsos.
He could be the new Heinz Harald Frentzen - battered at Williams but when given TLC at Jordan, he flew.
So maybe if Piquet found his 'Jordan', he could show his real potential.

vectra

Yes indeed.
Boot out Badoer and stick NPJ in there until Massa gets back

rotinaj

+1

He needs a few seasons at a "lesser" team. Maybe one of the new ones for next year. Never given a chance a renault.

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

Yes indeed.
Boot out Badoer and stick NPJ in there until Massa gets back

Would rather see Bourdais get it.

Iridium

vectra wrote: »

Yes indeed.
Boot out Badoer and stick NPJ in there until Massa gets back

It would surely be a better option for Ferrari, what would they have to lose by giving Piquet a chance?

I understand Badoer wasn't given a chance to drive the car before this weekend, but neither was Grosjean, nor was Alguersuari in Hungary. Neither of them looked disastrous, driving inferior cars to Badoer.

Sure, it's a nice story to see the long-time test driver getting a chance at racing as a reward for all his service to Ferrari, but some guys have what it takes, and some don't. 49 races, 0 points - it's just not good enough to be given such a coveted seat.

Scober11

If jnr never appeared in F1 again the championship would be stronger for it.

Slutmonkey57b

There's no shortage of drivers Ferrari could put a call in to replace Badoer. Thanks, nice to see you, back to the test track thanks.

Driver market is looking like madness - If toyota join BMW, then there are 4 existing drivers hanging loose, Piquet, Davidson, Senna, Hulkenberg all looking for drives. Williams are looking to get out of Toyota engines which also means they'll drop Kazuki, so that's one seat going.

3 new teams: 6 seats (4 if you assume USF1 only employ americans)
Williams: 1 seat free, Rosberg to move? He seems pretty happy with the team and they are going well this year.
Ferrari: Alonso and depends if Massa is fit for driving.
Brawn: Button, but will they keep Rubens? He didn't produce when he should have but has done well now Button is off the boil. The Rant may have sealed his fate.
BMW: To be bought.. by who? 2 seats going but neither of the existing drivers would stay anyway.
Toyota: May be up for sale, but the staff are in the same position Honda were - massive resources, no results. Need a Ross Brawn figure to play "spot the muppet" with the payroll. Who would want to drive for them until that happens?
Renault: Need a big driver to replace Alonso, but if he couldn't whip the team into good results, who could? Grosjean to stay.

Drivers looking for seats:
Piquet - Will daddy buy BMW or Toyota? Both teams aren't performing well, is he the man to turn them round AND give his son a drive? Would another team principal take him on after his Rant?
Davidson - Deserves a drive and is in with Brawn already, but do they rate him for race pace?
Senna - A shoo in for the second Brawn?
Hulkenberg - Into the second Williams
Kimi - Looked so much happier rallying, he should go for it. If not, stay at Ferrari if Massa's not fit, or go to McLaren (interesting, but both he and Lewis like oversteery cars so a good engineering match).
Trulli - Gone. Too old. No results.
Rubens - A repeat of being kept on by a new team to help them run the cars? Not a bad idea for one of the startups, he's saved Button's arse with setups more than once this year.
Fisichella - Gone. Too old. No results.
Buemi - The Sebastien system doesn't work. Being outdone by the rookie already. Gone.

52paddy

There's two sides to the story. Piquet says his equipment at Renault was inferior. Flav says it was equal. I tend to side with Piquet on this one but, regardless, he never really showed true potential. His one highlight (Germany 08) was overshadowed by so many underperforming race drives. It's not about beating Alonso. He was failing to beat the STR at times! His biggest problem, in my view, is that he is emotionally unfit. He's not on his own, but unforunately it was a baptism of fire which may indeed have ended his F1 career. Personally, I don't think we're losing a future champion or even race winner.

enzo7

I think he should get another chance ok renault was a disaster but with abit of loving care he could do alright, i dont think he will be a world champion or but his young and he still has time. id put him in the ferrari , badoer has to go his even making kimi look great:D
I think honda will keep barrichello i even said this on another thread last wk and after today i def think they will. For all barrichellos failures id take him over davidson any day of the wk.

EvilMonkey

Piquet has to go back to GP2 or somewhere else and start winning before he should be considered by any F1 team in my opinion.

manutd4life

piquet had a tough time at renault.not only did he have alonso as his team mate but i heard that flavio would threaten him before every race saying that he would lose his seat if he didnt perform.its only putting more pressure on the lad.he deserves better than that.

i'd love to see him race for ferrari instead of luca for the rest of the season and when massa returns, keep piquet as test driver

vectra

Anyone catch any stories about Kimi going back to McLaren??
I for one think it would be mega news :cool:

manutd4life

vectra wrote: »

Anyone catch any stories about Kimi going back to McLaren??
I for one think it would be mega news :cool:

it would be big news but i just cant see it happening. imo when kimi leaves ferrari he wont race in f1 again.

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

Anyone catch any stories about Kimi going back to McLaren??
I for one think it would be mega news :cool:

Kimi play second fiddle to Hamilton? I dont think so.

And the way he was treated when he said he was leaving.

vectra

He wouldnt be playing second fiddle to Lewis
they both are one wdc each so on equal terms.
He is the only driver on the grid that could drive with Lewis anyway as he would turn up..drive the car..go home and couldnt give a $hit
also
The fallout he had was with Ron.
Martin has great admiration for him
I feel the mclaren suited Kimi better

enzo7

Dont think there is any substance in the "rumor" to be honest, i dont see why he would go there , his reputation is already on shakey ground , what good would a year with hamilton do him. He is in many ways a perfect maclaren driver but i doubt they would want him back, why would they , they hav a great driver in hamilton who actually want to win and he gives a sh*t. I think rosberg is the more likely to get the 2nd seat there. kimi will prob end up somewhere like williams.

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

Dont think there is any substance in the "rumor" to be honest, i dont see why he would go there , his reputation is already on shakey ground , what good would a year with hamilton do him. He is in many ways a perfect maclaren driver but i doubt they would want him back, why would they , they hav a great driver in hamilton who actually want to win and he gives a sh*t. I think rosberg is the more likely to get the 2nd seat there. kimi will prob end up somewhere like williams.

Kimi wont end up anywhere like williams
why would he drive for a losing team?
that is why the lack of motivation with him up to now.
His manager has been in talks with Brawn and McLaren as far as I know.

BaZmO*

Wouldn't do Ferrari any harm giving him a chance. Anything is better than Badoer at this stage!

Young driver with a point to prove and only contracted to the end of the season. Win-win for everyone concerned.

enzo7

vectra wrote: »

Kimi wont end up anywhere like williams
why would he drive for a losing team?
that is why the lack of motivation with him up to now.
His manager has been in talks with Brawn and McLaren as far as I know.

He mightnt hav much of a choice , there is unlikely to be a seat going at brawn as it looks like they will retain barrichello, as for maclaren it far more likely they will sign rosberg. Ferrari look def to announce the alonso move at monza and with red bull confirming their drivers, williams looks his best bet of a drive nxt season if he will be in f1 at all. Im sure his manager is in talks with every team on the pit lane including maclaren/brawn and they and williams are prob best suited to him as a driver. It will be intresting to see where he will go doe and if they can change his attitude abit.

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

He mightnt hav much of a choice , there is unlikely to be a seat going at brawn as it looks like they will retain barrichello, as for maclaren it far more likely they will sign rosberg. Ferrari look def to announce the alonso move at monza and with red bull confirming their drivers, williams looks his best bet of a drive nxt season if he will be in f1 at all. Im sure his manager is in talks with every team on the pit lane including maclaren/brawn and they and williams are prob best suited to him as a driver. It will be intresting to see where he will go doe and if they can change his attitude abit.

Another twist to the tale would be ( god forbid ) permanent damage to Massa'a eyesight. Would we have Kimi & Alonso ?

52paddy

In regard to Piquet being treated unfairly, I wholeheartedly agree. But, I don't believe that can be an adequate excuse either. It only shows up a defect in him, not being able to work under pressure. There's no point saying "he's a good driver if everybody is nice to him." It doesn't work like that in F1. If a manager tells you to prove something, you need to be able to do it when the going is tough. Sure, its not easy. It shouldn't be. And its not the first time in history that it has happened. Look at how many drivers over the years (since 2001) got thrown out of the sport or their team before the year finished because they simply weren't performing: Gaston Mazzacane, Christiano De Matta, Giorgio Pantano, Yuji Ide, Scott Speed, Juan Pablo Montoya (kind of - his choice I guess,) Christian Klien, Sebastien Bourdais and now Piquet Jr.

I don't see why Piquet should be excused. He wasn't performing decently, he wasn't doing anything. Renault needed a better driver. In a different team, a different atmosphere, there's a chance he would be more comfortable and thus score more consistently. But, in my view, its pointless agreeing that he should be back driving a Renault and VERY optimistic if you consider him world championship material. He's been in the sport for a year and a half and still hasn't made a considerable impression. Tough luck to him.

As for Kimi, well he can count his lucky stars that Schumacher didn't get the seat for Valencia. Whilst I still think Kimi would have beaten MS, I reckon it would have been much closer than what he had to deal with, with Badoer. And if MS does return for Spa, then Kimi will need to keep full steam ahead. Kimi wouldn't fancy being beaten by Schumi (or even out-paced by him) so I reckon if that ends up happening, Kimi will loose a lot of motivation. If indeed he does loose his Ferrari seat to Alonso (looking likely) then he has a few options for 2010 so far:

McLaren: Hamilton will stay at No .1. But Heikki may be fired, unless his performances keep improving. Hamilton looks like he is getting the team built around him (much like Senna and Schumacher have done in the past.) Kimi could not deal with that. Also, his relationship with McLaren is probably not stable, even if Ron Dennis is gone.

Toyota: Its probable that this team will follow BMW out of the sport. But, since nothing is confirmed yet, they are still an option. John Howett has sent press releases around suggesting Trulli is on the way out, which leaves a space open for Raikkonen. Though I don't realistically see him signing for a team which is currently performing poorly and spending its massive budget wrongly, clearly.

Williams: Best of the current crop. I expect to see Nico Rosberg at McLaren next year, in place of Kovi. I also expect that, if Williams change engine supplier, that will get Kamikaze Nakajima out of their way. Hulkenberg looks set on a move up from GP2 and has been testing the car this year. Kimi would be a good option for them, in order to have experience and youth in the team. Also, with a new engine supplier looking probable for 2010, this might give Kimi added confidence in signing for them, if the opportunity does arise.

Renault: This doesn't feel like a right move. I also have a gut feeling that the Flav+Kimi mix would be a recipe for disaster. But with Alonso most likely leaving a spot open, Kimi has a chance of sorts.

Toro Rosso: This isn't going to happen. Its all done through Red Bull.

Force India: If he ends up here, his F1 career is over.

New teams: Campos, Manor and USF1 have all apparently put in entrants for 2010. Campos are looking at Pedro De La Rosa and possibly Carmen Jorda. That's not a realistic option. I'm not sure what Manor's current status is. And USF1 are fairly set with looking at Villeneuve and some young American driver.

My hunch -> He'll end up at Williams or leave the sport.

52paddy

vectra wrote: »

Another twist to the tale would be ( god forbid ) permanent damage to Massa'a eyesight. Would we have Kimi & Alonso ?

We had Prost and Senna. Never say never!

enzo7

Except ferrari dont actually want kimi, there is a better chance of seeing schumacher in a ferrari nxt season:D.

I thought massa eye was fine it just his recovering from his head injury???

EvilMonkey

52paddy wrote: »

As for Kimi, well he can count his lucky stars that Schumacher didn't get the seat for Valencia. Whilst I still think Kimi would have beaten MS, I reckon it would have been much closer than what he had to deal with, with Badoer. And if MS does return for Spa, then Kimi will need to keep full steam ahead. Kimi wouldn't fancy being beaten by Schumi (or even out-paced by him) so I reckon if that ends up happening, Kimi will loose a lot of motivation. If indeed he does loose his Ferrari seat to Alonso (looking likely) then he has a few options for 2010 so far:

He handled being bet by Massa most of last year.

52paddy

EvilMonkey wrote: »

He handled being bet by Massa most of last year.

You think so? The guy was clearly demotivated and fed up with the whole thing. A bit reminiscent of Montoya. I know he's the iceman and all, but he's still human. He was driving around like he just didn't care, while Massa was winning races. He clearly had the speed; how many times did he start setting the fastest lap in the final phase of races after a processionary performance prior?

Also, take into account, MS is 40 years old and would be coming out of retirement. Being beaten by someone who dealt with a neck injury, a long sabbatical from the sport and approaching middle age could not go down well with Kimi, or Ferrari for that matter.

vectra

52paddy wrote: »

As for Kimi, well he can count his lucky stars that Schumacher didn't get the seat for Valencia. Whilst I still think Kimi would have beaten MS, I reckon it would have been much closer than what he had to deal with, with Badoer. And if MS does return for Spa, then Kimi will need to keep full steam ahead. Kimi wouldn't fancy being beaten by Schumi (or even out-paced by him) so I reckon if that ends up happening, Kimi will loose a lot of motivation. If indeed he does loose his Ferrari seat to Alonso (looking likely) then he has a few options for 2010 so far:

This is exactly the rubbish I detest reading
Nothing more than speculation.
No proof whatsoever of this situation.

enzo7 wrote: »

Except ferrari dont actually want kimi, there is a better chance of seeing schumacher in a ferrari nxt season:D.

You know this for certain?
if so
show us your firm evidence.

enzo7 wrote: »

I thought massa eye was fine it just his recovering from his head injury???

His sight is still a bit blurred .
Anything short of 150% perfecxt eyesight is not good enough at 200+ MPH so could fail his medical to gain his superlicence to drive next year.

Iron Hide

vectra wrote: »

Kimi wont end up anywhere like williams
why would he drive for a losing team?
that is why the lack of motivation with him up to now.
His manager has been in talks with Brawn and McLaren as far as I know.

A car that rosberg has dragged 30 points out of this year, and on his day Kimi is one of the best on the grid, i think a team change is waht he needs....

Trulli and Fisi will probably end up at one of the new teams for a season or two, their 200+ races being a big experience advantage... Williams are apparently in discussion with Renault about engines for next year, FW18 all over again anyone? :P

vectra

Red Storm wrote: »

and on his day Kimi is one of the best on the grid, i think a team change is waht he needs....

I agree
But I would prefer him back at Macca

Iron Hide

Most people say Kimi couldnt care less who his team mate is, but McLaren will make it clear that he and lewis will not be equals and Hamilton will be designated lead driver, dont know if Kimi could handle that... Would be some battle though, Kimi and Lewis vs Alonso and Massa.. Wwe meets f1!!

52paddy

vectra wrote: »

This is exactly the rubbish I detest reading
Nothing more than speculation.
No proof whatsoever of this situation.

Of which one? Kimi getting beaten by Schumacher? Kimi getting demotivated by Schumacher? Kimi moving from Ferrari next year being replaced by Alonso?

Of the Schumi situations, it is speculation, but not without thought. EvilMonkey argued this a moment ago, but Kimi didn't work well with Massa in 2008. There's no excuses for that performance, he was crap in comparison. If he was beaten by Schumacher, I can surely speculate, with good reason, that his reaction would be similar. Where does Kimi stand then with Ferrari?

Of the Ferrari/Alonso situation, its been strongly rumoured for a very long time. Years actually.

enzo7

I dont for 1 second think he will get the maclaren seat ahead of rosberg, but lets just say for argument sake he does get it and he re-discovers his form , maclaren would be idiots to make him a no.2 driver to hamilton because on his day his far better than hamilton also kimi has a cool head he would handle hamilton far better than an emotional alonso in 07. If he went to maclaren the same old unmotivated kimi i really dont think he would give a dam if hamilton kicked his ass.

Whatever the situation with massa i really dont see it having any bearing on kimi's future. I think in an ideal f1 world we would all luv to see lewis+kimi (on form) V alonso+massa. But id settle for lewis+rosberg V alonso+massa.

EvilMonkey

The funny thing is with all the talk of cost cutting in F1 to break Kimis contract will cost Ferrari £25M, half of Max's proposed yearly budget :pac:
Would hate to see Kimi in a McLaren again.

52paddy

enzo7 wrote: »

If he went to maclaren the same old unmotivated kimi i really dont think he would give a dam if hamilton kicked his ass.

I for one say he'd care quite a lot. He doesn't want to play second fiddle. As far as I'm concerned, he would like to be winning. He's not an emotional guy like Alonso, Hamilton or Barrichello. But that doesn't mean he doesn't feel the same things, just because he doesn't show them the same way.

EvilMonkey

52paddy wrote: »

You think so? The guy was clearly demotivated and fed up with the whole thing. A bit reminiscent of Montoya. I know he's the iceman and all, but he's still human. He was driving around like he just didn't care, while Massa was winning races. He clearly had the speed; how many times did he start setting the fastest lap in the final phase of races after a processionary performance prior?

Also, take into account, MS is 40 years old and would be coming out of retirement. Being beaten by someone who dealt with a neck injury, a long sabbatical from the sport and approaching middle age could not go down well with Kimi, or Ferrari for that matter.

Fair enough, he is doing better with Massa gone. But he handled being bet by Schumacher/Alonso, when he drove for McLaren.

I think his de-motivation last year came when the development of the car went away from his driving style. And he left McLaren to be in the best car on the grid and all of a sudden McLaren had the better car. He realised that Schumacher put allot of work in ensuring the car was as good as it could be and the Ferrari wasn't just a magic car you get in and win world championships.

This year Ferrari gambled on kers, the car is crap and they have stopped bringing new parts.

He got the best out of the Ferrari in the last two races, not bad for being unmotivated and constant speculation on his future.

enzo7

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The funny thing is with all the talk of cost cutting in F1 to break Kimis contract will cost Ferrari £25M, half of Max's proposed yearly budget :pac:
Would hate to see Kimi in a McLaren again.

I know it crazy really

enzo7

I think his done a good job in the last two races but its really too little too late.

I dont think im confusing lack of emotion with lack of intrest, if he cared so much about massa wipeing the floor of him for the last 2yrs why didnt he do something about it??? He must of know he was putting his ferrari future on the line and in turn his future at a top team by underperforming like he has Weather it was down to lack of motivation which i think it is or his driving style not suited to the ferrari then there is huge question marks over why he couldnt adapt?? Why should ferrari pay him stupid money when massa can do the job on a fraction of his salary.

He either doeant give a dam or his just not up to the job either one he doesnt deserve to be in at top team nxt season.

52paddy

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Fair enough, he is doing better with Massa gone. But he handled being bet by Schumacher/Alonso, when he drove for McLaren.

Neither were his team mate. He was beating Coulthard consistently after the 2002 season. In fact, he almost took the 2003 title and up until 2007 (his move to Ferrari) he had comfortably beaten all of his team mates. That would have kept him happy, knowing he was the one doing better with what machinery he was given. Come 2007, he narrowly won the championship. As #1 driver in 2008 he should have led the way. He didn't in the slightest, Massa did. And then Kimi got demoted to 2nd driver again.

EvilMonkey wrote:

Schumacher put allot of work in ensuring the car was as good as it could be and the Ferrari wasn't just a magic car you get in and win world championships.

Completely agree. Well said.

vectra

52paddy wrote: »

Of which one? Kimi getting beaten by Schumacher? Kimi getting demotivated by Schumacher? Kimi moving from Ferrari next year being replaced by Alonso?

Of the Schumi situations, it is speculation, but not without thought. EvilMonkey argued this a moment ago, but Kimi didn't work well with Massa in 2008. There's no excuses for that performance, he was crap in comparison. If he was beaten by Schumacher, I can surely speculate, with good reason, that his reaction would be similar. Where does Kimi stand then with Ferrari?

Of the Ferrari/Alonso situation, its been strongly rumoured for a very long time. Years actually.

No
You are speculating about Kimi's reaction
Personally Kimi couldnt give a $hit

My point is this
We all know how fast schumi WAS
in a car that was built around him
in a team that was built around him
where he was number one no matter what

he is now rusty as he hasnt race in 3 years.
How can anyone say he will simply step into a car and blow everyone away?

He is getting older now and losing the edge he had.
Reactions would certainly be slower than the younger guys.

vectra

Red Storm wrote: »

Most people say Kimi couldnt care less who his team mate is, but McLaren will make it clear that he and lewis will not be equals and Hamilton will be designated lead driver, dont know if Kimi could handle that... Would be some battle though, Kimi and Lewis vs Alonso and Massa.. Wwe meets f1!!

No number one for Hamilton if Kimi were to join him
Remember one thing
Ron Dennis was his Sugar daddy
Ron has no more to do with the team
So lewis drives for them and that is that.

52paddy

enzo7 wrote: »

if he cared so much about massa wipeing the floor of him for the last 2yrs why didnt he do something about it???.

As I've said before, I believe he does care. But he's either to demotivated to do anything, and is willing to let it run its course. Or, equally, he just isn't as good a driver in that car (and maybe in any car, who knows.) He seems quiet but from my view, he's quite arrogant in that quiet way. He wants to be spoon-fed but isn't willing to put in the hard work. Don't get me wrong, he's no Michael Andretti, but in some respects, I think he has similar faults.

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

No number one for Hamilton if Kimi were to join him
Remember one thing
Ron Dennis was his Sugar daddy
Ron has no more to do with the team
So lewis drives for them and that is that.

Wrong, Lewis is #1 in McLaren for the same reasons that Schumi was #1 - he's determined, he's hungry, he's well integrated into the team, and he makes it his business to be involved. He makes it worth the team's while to give him #1 status, he doesn't need a sugar daddy.

He is definately not a driver who was handed a car on a plate and was given a pat on the head, no matter what the perception might be. Compare his driving at the start of the year in a crap car that didn't suit his driving to Button's in the past 3 races. I don't believe JB is a crap driver at all, but can you see Lewis allowing other drivers to push him about like that? Not in a million years.

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Wrong, Lewis is #1 in McLaren for the same reasons that Schumi was #1 - he's determined, he's hungry, he's well integrated into the team, and he makes it his business to be involved. He makes it worth the team's while to give him #1 status, he doesn't need a sugar daddy.

He is definately not a driver who was handed a car on a plate and was given a pat on the head, no matter what the perception might be. Compare his driving at the start of the year in a crap car that didn't suit his driving to Button's in the past 3 races. I don't believe JB is a crap driver at all, but can you see Lewis allowing other drivers to push him about like that? Not in a million years.

No
I cant see lewis being pushed around by anybody in a team car. BUT.. If kimi wee there and they were on equal status then "he who fights hardest lasts longest"

Slutmonkey57b

I think kimi and lewis would actually make a good partnership. They'd fight well together, their driving styles are similar, and they're both naturally quick. I honestly don't think the question with Kimi is "will he find a drive", it's "does he want a drive"? I really think he wants to go rallying, I don't think he's at all bothered that Alonso might push him out.

BaZmO*

52paddy wrote: »

As for Kimi, well he can count his lucky stars that Schumacher didn't get the seat for Valencia. Whilst I still think Kimi would have beaten MS, I reckon it would have been much closer than what he had to deal with, with Badoer.

Haha! Me driving around Valencia in my girlfriend's Micra would've more of a challenge to Kimi than Badoer.

vectra wrote: »

His sight is still a bit blurred .
Anything short of 150% perfecxt eyesight is not good enough at 200+ MPH so could fail his medical to gain his superlicence to drive next year.

Is that even possible?!?!