Booster pump question...

jwb1

We are currently adding a new bedroom and ensuite to our bungalow. We plan to install a "power shower" in the en suite (using a Groehe shower head). We have already installed a pumped "deluge" shower in the main bathroom, i.e. a large tank with a 2-bar booster pump and a Mira 8-inch overhead shower head. This latter unit is working very well.

The current plan is to feed the new shower from the same tank and booster pump as are used in the main bathroom

My question is simple (and maybe a bit dumb...but here goes anyway): on those occasions when both showers are in use, will the 2-bar pump be sufficient to drive both showers? (I know the tank volume will be fine so that's not a concern).

If the 2-bar pump is insufficient...4-bar pumps are enormous monsters, so should I install a second 2-bar pump and feed the two showers independently?

Thanks in advance for any advice....

ART6

jwb1 wrote: »

We are currently adding a new bedroom and ensuite to our bungalow. We plan to install a "power shower" in the en suite (using a Groehe shower head). We have already installed a pumped "deluge" shower in the main bathroom, i.e. a large tank with a 2-bar booster pump and a Mira 8-inch overhead shower head. This latter unit is working very well.

The current plan is to feed the new shower from the same tank and booster pump as are used in the main bathroom

My question is simple (and maybe a bit dumb...but here goes anyway): on those occasions when both showers are in use, will the 2-bar pump be sufficient to drive both showers? (I know the tank volume will be fine so that's not a concern).

If the 2-bar pump is insufficient...4-bar pumps are enormous monsters, so should I install a second 2-bar pump and feed the two showers independently?

Thanks in advance for any advice....

If you use a 2 bar pump designed for one shower to feed two, then both showers will operate at about half flow when used at the same time. That assumes that the pump is actually designed to feed only one shower, bearing in mind that it's the flow rate in litres per minute that matters, not the pressure. A 4 bar pump will not necessarily supply more water -- it will just supply it more forcibly. Therefore I would say the obvious solution if the tank is large enough but the pump isn't, is to do as you say and install a second 2 bar pump with a separate feed from the tank. Don't use the original pump feed for both since you would then risk starving both pumps.

Bodhan

So long as the two showers aren't on at the same time it should be fine.
There is another concern, the distance from the 2bar pump to the second shower?

The pressure will drop off the greater the distance so 2bar at the pump becomes 1bar at the head, now 1bar is fine but if both showers are running the this might become 1/2bar which would be probably as bad as an non pumped shower.

The Grohe head puts out a max 18ltrs a minute I think, there are some better shower heads on the market that squeeze the water through at the same pressure but use less water.

Anyway if all the above is good, the one pump can do both showers, but for best effect you should put in a second pump

Joey the lips

Your lucky the 2 bar pump is sufficent at the moment. IMO. I would have rec a 3 bar pump and a min of a 42 x 18 cylinder on this arrangement. Its highly unlikely that both will work together if you fit another shower. You are also faceing a problem that the cylinder might not have enough capacity and heat recovery might not be acceptable to you on a four bar pump.

Lastly if i was fitting this to your situation you would be the first person i ever supplied a 4 bar pump to,

jwb1

ART6 wrote: »

If you use a 2 bar pump designed for one shower to feed two, then both showers will operate at about half flow when used at the same time. That assumes that the pump is actually designed to feed only one shower, bearing in mind that it's the flow rate in litres per minute that matters, not the pressure.

Thanks for this....I have a Stuart Turner ST66 pump...can't find a reference to flow (litres/min) anywhere....any idea whether this would drive 2 showers?

jwb1

Bodhan wrote: »

So long as the two showers aren't on at the same time it should be fine.
There is another concern, the distance from the 2bar pump to the second shower?

The pressure will drop off the greater the distance so 2bar at the pump becomes 1bar at the head, now 1bar is fine but if both showers are running the this might become 1/2bar which would be probably as bad as an non pumped shower.

The Grohe head puts out a max 18ltrs a minute I think, there are some better shower heads on the market that squeeze the water through at the same pressure but use less water.

Anyway if all the above is good, the one pump can do both showers, but for best effect you should put in a second pump

Is that a long run?

jwb1

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your lucky the 2 bar pump is sufficent at the moment. IMO. I would have rec a 3 bar pump and a min of a 42 x 18 cylinder on this arrangement. Its highly unlikely that both will work together if you fit another shower. You are also faceing a problem that the cylinder might not have enough capacity and heat recovery might not be acceptable to you on a four bar pump.

Lastly if i was fitting this to your situation you would be the first person i ever supplied a 4 bar pump to,

Do you mean you'd normally go for 2 separate pumps instead?

Joey the lips

jwb1 wrote: »

Do you mean you'd normally go for 2 separate pumps instead?

No if the cylinder is sufficnet size a 3 bar booster pump will be fine. There will be a slight drop in pressure though. Just check the performance rating on the shower heads.

Have a plumber survey and rec the best size pump.

Bodhan

jwb1 wrote: »

Is that a long run?

Not really, you loose more pressure running uphill say from one floor to another. You also loose pressure going around corners. So the more twists and turns your pipework makes to more pressure gets lost.

To make it easy, a 4 bar pump installed correctly can pump a whole house. A 2bar pump can be used just to pump showers. But if one shower is very near the pump and the other shower is on the floor above or far away then the second shower, even witht the same fittings, suffers the worst performance.

It depends on what you think is a good shower.

sky6

Question For Bodhan,
Sorry for jumping in on this post but can you tell me the correct way to fit a Pump for a whole house supply. I live in a Bungalow and have a 1 hp Submersible Well Pump supplying the House. I a looking to install a pump in house to supply all the house. Kitchen,Bathroom, Ensuite. Hope you can help thanks,
Sky6

Bodhan

sky6 wrote: »

Question For Bodhan,
Sorry for jumping in on this post but can you tell me the correct way to fit a Pump for a whole house supply. I live in a Bungalow and have a 1 hp Submersible Well Pump supplying the House. I a looking to install a pump in house to supply all the house. Kitchen,Bathroom, Ensuite. Hope you can help thanks,
Sky6

The best way for getting even pressure throughout the house is to have a pressurised system, but these are expensive and can turn out to be a huge job.
I take it that your well feeds a tank in your attic, which in turn fills a hot water tank?
If that's the case there will be a hot water feed pipe leaving your tank, and in simple terms you interupt that pipe and add on a pump. Now that's very simple terms, there can be a lot more too it and its not really a DIY job unless your good with water.
Remember if you pump the whole house you will need a big pump and you would have to change every tap fitting.
Have a look at this link, this is just one type of pump there are many others. Give a plumper a call and ask for an estimate for a full install and part install (Showers and Bath only). http://www.salamanderpumps.co.uk/Products/ESP_Pumps.htm

Joey the lips

Bodhan wrote: »

The best way for getting even pressure throughout the house is to have a pressurised system, but these are expensive and can turn out to be a huge job.
I take it that your well feeds a tank in your attic, which in turn fills a hot water tank?
If that's the case there will be a hot water feed pipe leaving your tank, and in simple terms you interupt that pipe and add on a pump. Now that's very simple terms, there can be a lot more too it and its not really a DIY job unless your good with water.
Remember if you pump the whole house you will need a big pump and you would have to change every tap fitting.
Have a look at this link, this is just one type of pump there are many others. Give a plumper a call and ask for an estimate for a full install and part install (Showers and Bath only). http://www.salamanderpumps.co.uk/Products/ESP_Pumps.htm

+1 on pressurising the whole house but as it was not directed at me i did not answer. Def the way to go!

sky6

If anyone else can offer help feel free to do so as I'm about ready to tackle this Water pressure problem.
The Well feeds a 60 litre expansion Vessel this then feeds the storage tank in the Attic which in turn feeds to Hot Cylinder by way of a 1 inch feed.
Which I had to put in to try and increase the pressure due to the length of the run.
The Cylinder has an Essex flange on it which feeds the Taps from the top and the two Showers from the side connection of the Essex flange.

I was looking at using a Grundfos MQ Jet pump to feed the whole house. But this is only a single impeller pump with one in and one out. This is where I am confused. I know I can take a feed direct from the Storage tank for a cold supply but i'm not sure how to deal with the Hot supply. Do I take a feed from the pressurized cold supply to feed the Hot Cylinder.
I should have said I was a Fitter by trade and have worked on all types of industrial systems from H.P. steam to 6 inch Gas mains. But since retiring I have lost touch with some of the changes and improvements in modern Pumps and Plumbing systems.