The UCC 'Off-Topic' Thread

itsallaboutheL

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I completely disagree - anyone who would cheat to do well in a sport should not be playing at all

There are literally no top level sportsmen that havn't pushed serious boundries to get where they are. All he did was handle the ball ffs.

rebel girl 15

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

There are literally no top level sportsmen that havn't pushed serious boundries to get where they are. All he did was handle the ball ffs.

If he handled it once, it would be one thing, he handled it twice to control it - I've no problem pushing boundaries, but stepping over them is completely different.

Anyway as Nova said

Nova_era wrote:

Excuse me if I'm incorrect, but the foundational rules of football assume that players use their feet, and not their hands, in order to play the game.

Anybody who isn't able to obey that simple rule should most certainly not be playing football.

deisedude

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Nope, i would have done the same thing.

And anyone that wouldn't shouldn't be playing a competitive sport.

Its that kind of attitude that has ruined sports like cycling. Playing to the limit and cheating are two different things entirely.

itsallaboutheL

deisedude wrote: »

Its that kind of attitude that has ruined sports like cycling. Playing to the limit and cheating are two different things entirely.

Taking liberties within a game and keeping blood in a fridge for 3 weeks are completely different things.

Nova_era

deisedude wrote: »

Its that kind of attitude that has ruined sports like cycling. Playing to the limit and cheating are two different things entirely.

I wouldn't say cycling has been ruined. Of course, the image has been tarnished, but due to all the problems which the sport of has, I think it has benefited. Controls are so strict now, that it really does take true talent to win a race like the Tour or the Giro. Naturally, you have people like Floyd Landis who want to bring others down with him, but thankfully the sport and the UCI are ignoring him, and his complete lack of proof. Having said that, to think that Alexander Vinokourov is still allowed ride a bike professionally is ****ing infuriating.

Either way, best sport in the world as far as I'm concerned.

SuperInfinity

He got away with it at the time and that's all that matters.

"hurr durr, got away with it, what about morality"

Morality doesn't come into it at all. He played the rules of the game. In the game the only person he has to convince is the referee, we're not party to the rules at all.

If it were part of the rules that the video could be used in evidence afterwards well then the goal shouldn't be counted. But that's not how the rules work.

I fully support Henry and believe he shouldn't have thought twice about it.

Nova_era

SuperInfinity wrote: »

He played the rules of the game.

I wasn't aware that the rules of football included using your hand to A) keep a ball in play, and control the ball. Of course, you must be right, and I (along with millions of other football fans) have been missing out on this particular piece of small print.

I fully support Henry and believe he shouldn't have thought twice about it

I see that as nothing else than you trying to stand out and look "controversial". His ex-teammates, managers, coaches, and opponents, have admitted that he was wrong.

For what reason would you possibly "support" Henry?? You think that it was a good idea to CHEAT, HANDLE THE BALL, and be the difference between Ireland and a FAIR chance at qualifying for the World Cup?

I'm not going to accuse you of a lack of "Patriotic" sentiment, as this is often a void concept, but I will accuse you of posting absolute rubbish on the internet. I daresay anybody with an ounce of sense would also be able to identify this particular quality of yours, judging by your post in this particular thread.

itsallaboutheL

Nova_era wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the rules of football included using your hand to A) keep a ball in play, and control the ball. Of course, you must be right, and I (along with millions of other football fans) have been missing out on this particular piece of small print.



I see that as nothing else than you trying to stand out and look "controversial". His ex-teammates, managers, coaches, and opponents, have admitted that he was wrong.

For what reason would you possibly "support" Henry?? You think that it was a good idea to CHEAT, HANDLE THE BALL, and be the difference between Ireland and a FAIR chance at qualifying for the World Cup?

I'm not going to accuse you of a lack of "Patriotic" sentiment, as this is often a void concept, but I will accuse you of posting absolute rubbish on the internet. I daresay anybody with an ounce of sense would also be able to identify this particular quality of yours, judging by your post in this particular thread.

If the hand was on the other team would you be so righteous??

An example being Neil Back in the Hcup Final in 2002... absolute uproar..

a few years later Quinlan does similiar and he's "a cute hoor" same with TOL not so long ago.

Nova_era

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

If the hand was on the other team would you be so righteous??

An example being Neil Back in the Hcup Final in 2002... absolute uproar..

a few years later Quinlan does similiar and he's "a cute hoor" same with TOL not so long ago.

I have no interest in Rugby, so examples relating to that sport will be of no meaning to me.

As regards your first question; the same was asked on RTE following the match last November. Eamon Dunphy replied (although I'm writing from memory, not word for word): "I don't care who it is; the fact is, I don't want to see ANY sporting contest of this high a profile decided by something like that."

If it had been Kevin Doyle, I would have been sympathetic to the French, but would have said "well, we won" etc etc.

However, it wasn't Kevin Doyle. To be fair to the French, they were absolutely fantastic in the aftermath; they were selfless, they admitted as a nation that they had been misrepresented. David Ginola, Arsene Wenger etc, admitted that it was an embarrassing event. I see no reason why I should be sorry for my feelings towards Thierry Henry.

SuperInfinity

Nova_era wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the rules of football included using your hand to A) keep a ball in play, and control the ball. Of course, you must be right, and I (along with millions of other football fans) have been missing out on this particular piece of small print.

According to the refereee and linesman at the time, Henry didn't handle the ball. The rules are clear in that the referee's decision is final. Even if straight after centering the referee gives one side a goal saying he thought it crossed the goal line... his decision is still final and it is still a goal. FIFA couldn't do anything if they wanted. Only where he is technically mistaken over what happens can they do something. I see the merit in these rules that don't rely on modern technology.

Honestly, even though it was a bad decision it wasn't that horrible of a decision. You see decisions like that happen all the time in the premiership - maybe not every week, but every couple of weeks anyway. It was within the bounds of human error and within the bounds of chance.

Nova_era wrote: »

I see that as nothing else than you trying to stand out and look "controversial". His ex-teammates, managers, coaches, and opponents, have admitted that he was wrong.

That's your opinion, just don't think it proves anything. I have been saying this from the very beginning.

Nova_era wrote: »

For what reason would you possibly "support" Henry?? You think that it was a good idea to CHEAT, HANDLE THE BALL, and be the difference between Ireland and a FAIR chance at qualifying for the World Cup?

Yes I do. It wasn't that unfair.... the referee didn't throw the ball into the box and forcibly pull back McShane as he stayed in no-man's land. Ireland shouldn't ever have let that happen to begin with, because crap can happen when the ball is bouncing in the small rectangle in your penalty box. Ireland got the short end of the stick.

Nova_era wrote: »

I'm not going to accuse you of a lack of "Patriotic" sentiment, as this is often a void concept, but I will accuse you of posting absolute rubbish on the internet. I daresay anybody with an ounce of sense would also be able to identify this particular quality of yours, judging by your post in this particular thread.

Being patriotic has nothing to do with it. It wasn't an "international incident" that called for our country to talk to theirs politically, that was all bull. It's about following and respecting the... err... rules and terms of the game.

Nova_era wrote: »

As regards your first question; the same was asked on RTE following the match last November. Eamon Dunphy replied (although I'm writing from memory, not word for word): "I don't care who it is; the fact is, I don't want to see ANY sporting contest of this high a profile decided by something like that.

Just because he doesn't want to see it being decided like that doesn't mean he would be in favour of it being "replayed" or anything remotely like that. I don't think ANYBODY wanted it to be decided like that, but stuff like that just happens sometimes. It would be worse if Henry scored a perfectly good goal...

Nova_era

Ok you're right.

yerayeah

Nova_era wrote: »

I wouldn't say cycling has been ruined. Of course, the image has been tarnished, but due to all the problems which the sport of has, I think it has benefited. Controls are so strict now, that it really does take true talent to win a race like the Tour or the Giro. Naturally, you have people like Floyd Landis who want to bring others down with him, but thankfully the sport and the UCI are ignoring him, and his complete lack of proof. Having said that, to think that Alexander Vinokourov is still allowed ride a bike professionally is ****ing infuriating.

Either way, best sport in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Imo, any claim like those Landis has been making should be investigated fully and not just dismissed out of hand because you think he's trying to bring other people down with him. That's a very naive way of looking at things, in my view. I presume you're an Armstrong fan, I was too over the years but tbh there's a lot of doping smoke around him, so I wouldn't be surprised if a fire is eventually found...

With regards to Henry, when it comes to the second leg of a World Cup playoff, winning is pretty much the only thing that matters. While it was absolutely sickening watching it, the reaction of some people here was almost as bad imo... "Anybody but the French" t shirts. Honestly, what could possess a person to buy the Sun?

Orizio

Nova_era wrote: »

Controls are so strict now, that it really does take true talent to win a race like the Tour or the Giro. Naturally, you have people like Floyd Landis who want to bring others down with him, but thankfully the sport and the UCI are ignoring him, and his complete lack of proof.

For ****'s sake Nova, if you don't know what are you talking then don't keep on talking. 99% of cycling fans would have a fit if they read the nonsense above.

Nova_era

yerayeah wrote: »

Imo, any claim like those Landis has been making should be investigated fully and not just dismissed out of hand because you think he's trying to bring other people down with him. That's a very naive way of looking at things, in my view. I presume you're an Armstrong fan, I was too over the years but tbh there's a lot of doping smoke around him, so I wouldn't be surprised if a fire is eventually found...

No, I am not an Armstrong Fan.

I am not a fan of any professional cyclist, in fact I think that to support a specific professional cyclist is a futile occupation. I am a cyclist myself, I enjoy cycling, and most certainly do not see the point in being a "fan" of any particular cyclist. Thank you.

Look at Landis' evidence. Oh wait, there is none. He claims that Armstrong paid in order to have a "Positive" test from the 2002 Tour de Suisse ignored. The fact that Armstrong didn't compete in the 2002 Tour De Suisse would disprove that little claim, I would imagine.

What about Landis' record in defence? A book claiming his innocence; $1.5 million spent defending himself in court, and 3 years of denying any allegations of doping. And then he decides to tell everyone that in fact, yes, he has been doping?! Hardly reliable.

Orizio

Nova_era wrote: »

No, I am not an Armstrong Fan.

I am not a fan of any professional cyclist, in fact I think that to support a specific professional cyclist is a futile occupation. I am a cyclist myself, I enjoy cycling, and most certainly do not see the point in being a "fan" of any particular cyclist. Thank you.

Look at Landis' evidence. Oh wait, there is none. He claims that Armstrong paid in order to have a "Positive" test from the 2002 Tour de Suisse ignored. The fact that Armstrong didn't compete in the 2002 Tour De Suisse would disprove that little claim, I would imagine.

What about Landis' record in defence? A book claiming his innocence; $1.5 million spent defending himself in court, and 3 years of denying any allegations of doping. And then he decides to tell everyone that in fact, yes, he has been doping?! Hardly reliable.

Whatever about Landis (and he isn't the only teammate to finger Armstrong), saying the 'strict' controls in the Giro have stopped cheating is a very hard to justify comment. The reality is cyclists are still doping, and the doping controls, particularly at the Giro, are and always will be only partially successful.

Nova_era

Orizio wrote: »

Whatever about Landis (and he isn't the only teammate to finger Armstrong), saying the 'strict' controls in the Giro have stopped cheating is a very hard to justify comment. The reality is cyclists are still doping, and the doping controls, particularly at the Giro, are and always will be only partially successful.

I never said that strict controls in the Giro have stopped cheating.

I alluded to the fact that stricter controls in cycling in recent years have impacted greatly upon the decision of younger riders to dope. Due to the scandals amongst older riders (eg. Di Luca, Vino), younger riders are getting the picture, and the incentive of "entering the sport, cheating, and winning" is gone. The winners in this years Giro are either youngsters (eg. Richie Porte), older riders who have NEVER tested positive (Cadel Evans), and the odd OLD rider such as Vino, who has tested positive in the past, and who is viewed as a parasite by the peleton in general. His type is dying out, thankfully, and is not something which continues to breath - because of increased controls.

You say that riders are still doping. Of course cyclists are still doping. However, where does the line stop? Tom Boonen has been caught on a number of occasions; for cocaine.

I believe that Danilo Di Luca's SECOND positive for EPO last year marked a turning point. He was an older rider, who had vowed to turn a page after being found guilty following the 2008 Giro. However, he came back to strike again. I believe that it is examples such as Di Luca, which act as a stronger deterant to young riders than anything else.

Unless you can back it up, I'd recommend removing your comment suggesting that doping controls "particularly at the Giro" are insufficient.

Orizio

The Giro is well known as being the most corrupt of the grand tours, and even if it has improved in recent years it started from a very low base regarding controls. Italian racers are notorious dopers, and on top of that, the Italian authorities care far less then the British and French, for example, when it comes to catching dopers. The fact that teams like Astana and racers like Basso and Vino are still allowed to race in it says a lot.

What you said made it seem, very clearly to me but presumebly it was a mistake on my part, that doping has been almost eradicated. The nature of cycling doping controls suggest this impossible, particularly when it comes to something like the Giro.

Orizio

Nova_era wrote: »

Unless you can back it up, I'd recommend removing your comment suggesting that doping controls "particularly at the Giro" are insufficient.

BTW, this kind of thing comes under the heading of 'back-seat modding' - not allowed.

Nova_era

You are being awfully unfair towards the Giro. You say that "Italian racers are notorious dopers"; is that a generalization? Of course Alessandro Petacchi and Danielo Di Luca can be thrown under that umbrella, but I would be happy to put my money in Vincienzo Nibali and Marco Pinotti to defend that statement.

Is anything more corrupt than the "Tour de Dopagne" in 1998?? No. So going by that theory, the Tour De France has been the most corrupt of grand tours in recent years. Even with that, I would place corruption as a minor detail in the problems facing the grand tours.

To say that the "Italian authorities care far less.... (for) catching dopers" is an extraordinary statement. I am sure that Liquigas, and the previously mentioned winner of the 2008 Giro (along with his life ban), would disagree.

The fact that Basso and Vino can still race is down to one thing; the justice of the society.

If somebody commits a crime on our society, they get their time. If I do X, and get 3 years in jail, surely I am free to continue living after the 3 years are finished?

Such is the same for these 2 riders. They did their time (which was a lenient sentence), and now they are back. It is nobody's job to stop them, although many would be of the opinion that Vino has sinned once too many times. But there is no law to support this feeling.

Claiming that Astana should not be allowed race is an argument which will not work. It is one of the problems with the organization of the pro-tour. To not allow a team called "Astana" into the UCI pro-tour, based on the actions of some past riders, might well cause World War III.

Orizio wrote: »

The Giro is well known as being the most corrupt of the grand tours, and even if it has improved in recent years it started from a very low base regarding controls. Italian racers are notorious dopers, and on top of that, the Italian authorities care far less then the British and French, for example, when it comes to catching dopers. The fact that teams like Astana and racers like Basso and Vino are still allowed to race in it says a lot.

What you said made it seem, very clearly to me but presumebly it was a mistake on my part, that doping has been almost eradicated. The nature of cycling doping controls suggest this impossible, particularly when it comes to something like the Giro.

Orizio

Its well known that its the courts in Italy, rather then the cycling authorities themselves, that tend to deal with doping in a serious manner - this is an accurate generalization for Italian society as a whole in fact. In general, Italians and Spaniards tend to be the most notorious dopers; for example, the most notorious dopers who got away with it for years were Di Luca, Pantini and Valverde. The most notorious doping doctor - Ferrari. The Oil For Drugs programme. Just recently, Ricco, Piepoli, Pettachi, Di Luca, Mazzoleni... I could go on forever.

Moreover, Giro has certain controls over what racers and teams can race just a quick look over the GC rather suggests they've taken a lax attitude towards past offenders (nevermind suspected current ones).

itsallaboutheL

Nova_era wrote: »

The fact that Basso and Vino can still race is down to one thing; the justice of the society.

If somebody commits a crime on our society, they get their time. If I do X, and get 3 years in jail, surely I am free to continue living after the 3 years are finished?

Such is the same for these 2 riders..

Not quite,

While you would be allowed continue living you would also have certain restrictions on exactly how you can live, you would find yourself excluded from certain proffessions.

For insance let us say it was a crime of a sexual nature in which case you would find yourself precluded from entering the medical and educational fields to certain extents, same with pretty much any conviction and law enforcement.

Here you have proven dopers being allowed race sans restriction.

Nova_era

Orizio wrote: »

Its well known that its the courts in Italy, rather then the cycling authorities themselves, that tend to deal with doping in a serious manner - this is an accurate generalization for Italian society as a whole in fact. In general, Italians and Spaniards tend to be the most notorious dopers; for example, the most notorious dopers who got away with it for years were Di Luca, Pantini and Valverde. The most notorious doping doctor - Ferrari. The Oil For Drugs programme. Just recently, Ricco, Piepoli, Pettachi, Di Luca, Mazzoleni... I could go on forever.

Moreover, Giro has certain controls over what racers and teams can race just a quick look over the GC rather suggests they've taken a lax attitude towards past offenders (nevermind suspected current ones).

You mention Valverde. He is not allowed race in Italy, due to his past doping offenses; he was not allowed race in the last TDF, as it passed through Italy. I would hardly call that "lax".

Ricco claims that he has done nothing wrong. He admits to doping, but apologies for nothing. He is the Christiano Ronaldo of Italian cycling. If Ronaldo was found doping, and went back to Portugal, he would probably suffer the public for around 2 weeks and then be the golden boy again.

I do not think it's fair to pinpoint the 2 nations which you have done, for the sake of an argument. You could find an equal number of names from France or the states if you wanted to. Look at Virenque for starters; and he is still commentating for Eurosport.

Even here, we have Stephen Roche, who never did much more than talk complete rubbish when confronted regarding his Dr. Conconi results.

It's unfair to pinpoint Spain and Italy. They have large cycling populations (on a humorous note, I'm not surprised, given their unreal roads! ), and naturally, with a larger cycling population will come a larger percentage of cheats.

Orizio

You believe there was as many American (or even French) dopers as there has been Italian or Spanish? Come on now.

Are you really trying to tell me you haven't noticed the ****ty reputation both the Spanish and Italian racers and authorities have gotten in cycling?

Nova_era

Orizio wrote: »

You believe there was as many American (or even French) dopers as there has been Italian or Spanish? Come on now.

Are you really trying to tell me you have noticed the ****ty reputation both the Spanish and Italian racers and authorities have gotten in cycling?

I'm not trying to tell you anything.

Tyler Hamilton. Floyd Landis. - Olympic Gold Medal, Tour De France, EPO.

I hate to use the term in relation to doping, but "quality over quantity" comes to mind. There have been more Spanish and French riders than riders of many other nationalities, so of course there are going to be a large number of riders trying their luck.

However, the Americans entered the sport late, and certainly wasted no time in infiltrating the elite, and many of these riders have since been caught. There are the 2 ahead, and my god how I would love to see somebody nail Greg Lemond.

And no I haven't noticed any "****ty" reputation regarding Italian and Spanish riders. I have noticed some of the greatest riders ever, but no, I have never once met anyone who dismissed these 2 great cycling nations.

Orizio

I wasn't dismissing them, I was saying their cyclists and their cycling authorities have particularly bad reputations when it comes to doping. I always felt that was an accepted generalization on professional cycling, something I've seen repeated again and again and a reflection of the corrupt societies of both nations, particularly the Italians.

We are just repeating things by this stage frankly.

Nova_era

Yes I agree, I am tired.

Can we just agree on the obvious; I am correct?

Only joking, let's call it a 1-1.

Night

yerayeah

Nova_era wrote: »

No, I am not an Armstrong Fan.

I am not a fan of any professional cyclist, in fact I think that to support a specific professional cyclist is a futile occupation. I am a cyclist myself, I enjoy cycling, and most certainly do not see the point in being a "fan" of any particular cyclist. Thank you.

Look at Landis' evidence. Oh wait, there is none. He claims that Armstrong paid in order to have a "Positive" test from the 2002 Tour de Suisse ignored. The fact that Armstrong didn't compete in the 2002 Tour De Suisse would disprove that little claim, I would imagine.

What about Landis' record in defence? A book claiming his innocence; $1.5 million spent defending himself in court, and 3 years of denying any allegations of doping. And then he decides to tell everyone that in fact, yes, he has been doping?! Hardly reliable.

OK, fair enough, that was an incorrect assumption regarding you being an Armstrong fan.

Obviously what Landis has said should not be taken as gospel and should rightfully be looked upon with a healthy dollop of scepticism, but equally they can't just be ignored imo, they have to be investigated fully and properly.

Nova_era

yerayeah wrote: »

OK, fair enough, that was an incorrect assumption regarding you being an Armstrong fan.

Obviously what Landis has said should not be taken as gospel and should rightfully be looked upon with a healthy dollop of scepticism, but equally they can't just be ignored imo, they have to be investigated fully and properly.

I have one slight confession to make -

I am somewhat of an Armstrong fan.

I met him once, and really do respect him, his sporting achievements, and his campaigns.

I reject the tag of an "Armstrong fan" however, as I believe it implies more than the reality.

It is clear from your reply that you acknowledge this however, and therefore my abbaration will seem somewhat normal!

Orizio

I think thats enough cycling talk to last a lifetime really.

deisedude

Nova_era wrote: »

I wouldn't say cycling has been ruined. Of course, the image has been tarnished, but due to all the problems which the sport of has, I think it has benefited. Controls are so strict now, that it really does take true talent to win a race like the Tour or the Giro. Naturally, you have people like Floyd Landis who want to bring others down with him, but thankfully the sport and the UCI are ignoring him, and his complete lack of proof. Having said that, to think that Alexander Vinokourov is still allowed ride a bike professionally is ****ing infuriating.

Either way, best sport in the world as far as I'm concerned.

I think there has been a sizeable dropoff in public interest in cycling since Landis got caught. It has ruined the sport for me brcause i cant believe that cyclists are clean and i'd imagine this is the case for most people