Cyprus vs. Republic of Ireland - 05/09/09 [mod warning post #293]

PCros · 07-09-2009 9:42am

romah wrote: »

What will the team for the friendly against South Africa be like..??

Goalkeepers: Keiren Westwood, Joe Murphy.

Defenders: John O'Shea, Stephen Kelly, Eddie Nolan, Sean St. Ledger, Paul McShane, Darren O'Dea.

Midfielders: Aiden McGeady, Damien Duff, Darron Gibson, Glenn Whelan, Keith Andrews, Liam Miller, Andy Keogh, Liam Lawrence.

Strikers: Kevin Doyle, Caleb Folan, Shane Long, Leon Best.

Live on Sky Sports 2

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 9:58am

PCros wrote: »

Goalkeepers: Keiren Westwood, Joe Murphy.

Defenders: John O'Shea, Stephen Kelly, Eddie Nolan, Sean St. Ledger, Paul McShane, Darren O'Dea.

Midfielders: Aiden McGeady, Damien Duff, Darron Gibson, Glenn Whelan, Keith Andrews, Liam Miller, Andy Keogh, Liam Lawrence.

Strikers: Kevin Doyle, Caleb Folan, Shane Long, Leon Best.

Live on Sky Sports 2

Pretty pointless friendly IMO. No point having one at this stage without a, er 'full' strength squad.

We seriously need to sort out the midfield. Seriously. Could we not just start a campaign to get Andy Reid & Lee Carsley back into the fold??

Idbatterim - surely a Bulgaria win is the best result for us

PCros · 07-09-2009 10:16am

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Pretty pointless friendly IMO. No point having one at this stage without a, er 'full' strength squad.

We seriously need to sort out the midfield. Seriously. Could we not just start a campaign to get Andy Reid & Lee Carsley back into the fold??

Idbatterim - surely a Bulgaria win is the best result for us

Agree with Andy Reid but Carsley is a 35 year old defensive midfielder, why exactly would we want that?

orourkeda · 07-09-2009 10:19am

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Pretty pointless friendly IMO. No point having one at this stage without a, er 'full' strength squad.

We seriously need to sort out the midfield. Seriously. Could we not just start a campaign to get Andy Reid & Lee Carsley back into the fold??

Idbatterim - surely a Bulgaria win is the best result for us

Do you not think there's been enough talk about Andy Reid

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 11:12am

PCros wrote: »

Agree with Andy Reid but Carsley is a 35 year old defensive midfielder, why exactly would we want that?

Eh, because he's a lot better than the donkey's we have playing there at the minute.

orourkeda wrote: »

Do you not think there's been enough talk about Andy Reid

No. And we still need him in there.

Do you not think there's been enough talk about how absolutely shockingly crap our midfield currently is?

PCros · 07-09-2009 11:43am

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Eh, because he's a lot better than the donkey's we have playing there at the minute.

Yeah maybe Carsley 3 or 4 years ago when he last played for Ireland might have been some use but I wouldn't want him near the squad now.

LuckyLloyd · 07-09-2009 11:56am

There's a lot of talk about the midfield being poor, so what? As fans we like to think we know a whole lot more about the game than we actually do.

Carsley has a better case for inclusion in the squad at this point in time than Andy Reid. He is starting week in and week out for Birmingham - having destroyed the Championship last year he is now holding his own in the Premiership. He dropped down to the Championship level for family reasons, he was still considered more than good enough to start at the highest level. He has tons of experience, will be available next summer, fits the system Trapp is implementing (two defensively capable players who will sit and compete infront of the back four), and would be an instant upgrade over either Andrews or Whelan. Finally, he would probably relish a shot at Pirlo and the likes in Croke Park with limited time left in his career.

Ultimately, his non - selection perturbs me a lot more than Reid because we can be 100% certain that he would come in and do the job in the current system no questions asked. And that he won't be around long term doesn't seem relevant to me. He would be able to see out the remainder of this campaign.

If Carsley had played on Saturday we would have looked better, because he would win more ball and protect the back four more capably than either of the two midfielders we did start. Carsley isn't going to wow you with his creativity in the opposition third, but by creating a platform in the middle of the park (winning it, keeping it) he would give everyone else on the ball more time and space when they have it.

We go round and round in circles about Reid, but his inclusion would require a change to the system currently employed, some shifting about of personnel, and potential strife given the attention around his exclusion from the squad and some of the things he has said in the press about that exclusion. Carsley presents no such issues. Bring him in.

Then bring in Delap aswell as another experienced player who would provide you with a weapon the Folan option could thrive off. If Trapp is making selection mistakes, Reid is a long way from the most obvious of them.

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 12:26pm

PCros wrote: »

Yeah maybe Carsley 3 or 4 years ago when he last played for Ireland might have been some use but I wouldn't want him near the squad now.

Carsley, even now, is surely a MUCH better option that Andrews / Gibson / Whelan.

He's got the experience, the toughness, and the match practice. Whelan can't even get a game for crying out loud.

I'd be a lot happier seeing a stopper like Carsley in the centre of the park, if needs be, alongside Andrews.

leninbenjamin · 07-09-2009 12:38pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Agree with this. Would be a shame though 'cause he would more than likely displace Doyle, who I really like as a footballer. But if we're going to play ugly football, we should play ugly footballers (not physically of course )

actually, I was thinking about this. We have three decent left wingers in the squad, none of whom can cross from the right. So why not do this:

Whelan---Andrews

Keane>>>

Duff

Folan

Doyle

with Keane given licence to get more central to pounce on those knock-downs when we have the ball.

And considering, O'Shea is our best right footed crosser at the moment, having Keane tuck central will give him a bit more space going forward to get some crosses in.

It makes us a bit more vulnerable on the right i know, but neither Hunt, McGeady or Duff can play the position properly anyway, and are like headless chickens when it comes to covering O'Shea, so we don't lose a huge amount.

As a sidenote, is there any possibility of Stephen Reid returning soon? I haven't heard a single thing mentioned about him lately.

Johnny Utah · 07-09-2009 12:40pm

leninbenjamin wrote: »

actually, I was thinking about this. We have three decent left wingers in the squad, none of whom can cross from the right. So why not do this:
Whelan---Andrews
Keane>>>
Duff
Folan
Doyle

with Keane given licence to get more central to pounce on those knock-downs when we have the ball.

And considering, O'Shea is our best right footed crosser at the moment, having Keane tuck central will give him a bit more space going forward to get some crosses in.

It makes us a bit more vulnerable on the right i know, but neither Hunt, McGeady or Duff can play the position properly anyway, and are like headless chickens when it comes to covering O'Shea, so we don't lose a huge amount.

As a sidenote, is there any possibility of Stephen Reid returning soon? I haven't heard a single thing mentioned about him lately.

Duff crossed from the right pretty okay on Saturday, I think

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 12:46pm

leninbenjamin wrote: »

actually, I was thinking about this. We have three decent left wingers in the squad, none of whom can cross from the right. So why not do this:
Whelan---Andrews
Keane>>>
Duff
Folan
Doyle

with Keane given licence to get more central to pounce on those knock-downs when we have the ball.

And considering, O'Shea is our best right footed crosser at the moment, having Keane tuck central will give him a bit more space going forward to get some crosses in.

It makes us a bit more vulnerable on the right i know, but neither Hunt, McGeady or Duff can play the position properly anyway, and are like headless chickens when it comes to covering O'Shea, so we don't lose a huge amount.

As a sidenote, is there any possibility of Stephen Reid returning soon? I haven't heard a single thing mentioned about him lately.

I'm sorry, but I'd much rather Duff / Hunt / McGeady down the right instead of Keane.

Keane is a forward, a striker, end of, he should be played in no other position for us IMO.

Folan should come in ahead of Keane or Doyle if he's to play. Arguably, we need Folan & Keane/Doyle with such a defensive midfield. He can hold the ball up, bring players into the game, put himself about a bit.

As was said, if we're going to play ugly football, play the ugly style players. But I would leave the wings to the wingers.

Up front isn't where we have problems TBH - the middle needs to be sorted out, ASAP before the Italy game.

leninbenjamin · 07-09-2009 12:49pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Duff crossed from the right pretty okay on Saturday, I think

how many crosses did Duff make from the right though in his half there? maybe I'm raving, but i think that was the only decent one he hit.

McGeady doesn't cross from the right, Hunt can't either. Duff's left foot forces him inside and headlong into fullbacks a lot, and given Duff's our best LW by a country mile, I'd much rather see him on the left anyway.

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Up front isn't where we have problems TBH - the middle needs to be sorted out, ASAP before the Italy game.

I disagree, aside from the midfield, one of the biggest problems this side faces is an ability to retain the ball up front. Given that we have very little options for the midfield, the better choice would be to strengthen the fronts ability to retain the ball. Doyle's ok at getting onto those long balls, but Keanes utterly woeful, and really needs it played to his feet if he's going to be a threat outside the box. He's not half as useful in this kind of system as he is for a team who play it on the ground like Spurs.

JP Liz · 07-09-2009 12:51pm

good result

whatawaster · 07-09-2009 12:52pm

as another poster said, if we're going to play like we are then Delap and Folan should always start.

Y2J_MUFC · 07-09-2009 1:20pm

leninbenjamin wrote: »

how many crosses did Duff make from the right though in his half there? maybe I'm raving, but i think that was the only decent one he hit.

Wasn't one was more than anybody else managed?

So, you want to take a striker out of his most dangerous position and put him on the right wing, instead of a player who provided the cross for the winner, and leave both McGeady and Hunt out completely who you've said are decent players, but will quite happily leave Whelan and Andrews in there?

No deal.

The Rooster · 07-09-2009 1:32pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Carsley has a better case for inclusion in the squad at this point in time than Andy Reid. He is starting week in and week out for Birmingham - having destroyed the Championship last year he is now holding his own in the Premiership.

Dublin Gunner wrote:

Whelan can't even get a game for crying out loud.

Do yis have a clue what you are talking about, or do you just make it up as you go along???

Whelan is a regular for Stoke. He has started their last 3 league games.

Carsley is in and out for Birmingham. He played two league matches so far this season (both times taken off with 15 to 20 minutes to go) and twice was a sub (both times unused). So far this season, McLeish has employed two different formations:
4-5-1 when he plays real defensive
4-4-2 when he thinks he has a chance of winning

When he's moved to 4-4-2, Carsley has been the one to be sacrificed.

Anyone calling for Lee Carsley to be starting for Ireland has not seen him play for about 2 years.

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 1:35pm

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I disagree, aside from the midfield, one of the biggest problems this side faces is an ability to retain the ball up front. Given that we have very little options for the midfield, the better choice would be to strengthen the fronts ability to retain the ball. Doyle's ok at getting onto those long balls, but Keanes utterly woeful, and really needs it played to his feet if he's going to be a threat outside the box. He's not half as useful in this kind of system as he is for a team who play it on the ground like Spurs.

But thats exactly my point. How can a forward hold the ball up, when there's no midfield coming to support? Thats our problem, not up front.

Doyle & Keane aren't players to hold up the ball (which is why I've been saying Folan should start), so they shouldn't be played in that role. The reason the ball is hoofed up to them, is because there's no-one creative in the middle of the park who can get their foot on the ball and pick out a pass.

And when it is hoofed up to them, and they try to hold it up - there is absolutely NO support coming from midfield - apart from the one time Keane knocked it down to Whelan, who was unlucky not to score, only for a fantastic save by the 'Keeper.

leninbenjamin · 07-09-2009 1:43pm

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

But thats exactly my point. How can a forward hold the ball up, when there's no midfield coming to support? Thats our problem, not up front.

true, but given the state of our current squad, all we can really do is try and compensate elsewhere for the lack of creativity in midfield.

Lord Trollington · 07-09-2009 1:48pm

I have always like 3-5-3 formation when you have limited players, you can crown the middle and stop the supply forward!!

Given
O Shea----Dunne----Ledger

S.Reid----Carsley

Duff

Hunt
McGeady
Keane

Doyle

eoin99 · 07-09-2009 1:53pm

whycliff wrote: »

I have always like 3-5-3 formation when you have limited players, you can crown the middle and stop the supply forward!!

Given
O Shea----Dunne----Ledger

S.Reid----Carsley

Duff
Hunt
McGeady
Keane
Doyle

Sacrifice Given for an extra man in midfield?

Het-Field · 07-09-2009 1:58pm

I think talk of Carsley and Reid is wide of the mark. Much as I would like to see both in the team. Without Stephan Reid, our midfield has looked appalling. Im amazed that Trappatoni didnt use S.Reid's injury as a chance to bring Carsley/And Reid into the team.

Fuhrer · 07-09-2009 1:59pm

eoin99 wrote: »

Sacrifice Given for an extra man in midfield?

No...

Thats why he included him?

eoin99 · 07-09-2009 2:00pm

Fuhrer wrote: »

No...

Thats why he included him?

I know that, was just wondering where the extra man for the 3-5-3 was going to come from.

ntlbell · 07-09-2009 2:03pm

Het-Field wrote: »

I think talk of Carsley and Reid is wide of the mark. Much as I would like to see both in the team. Without Stephan Reid, our midfield has looked appalling. Im amazed that Trappatoni didnt use S.Reid's injury as a chance to bring Carsley/And Reid into the team.

You're assuming he's looking for an excuse.

He's not.

LuckyLloyd · 07-09-2009 2:13pm

The Rooster wrote: »

Do yis have a clue what you are talking about, or do you just make it up as you go along???

Whelan is a regular for Stoke. He has started their last 3 league games.

Carsley is in and out for Birmingham. He played two league matches so far this season (both times taken off with 15 to 20 minutes to go) and twice was a sub (both times unused). So far this season, McLeish has employed two different formations:
4-5-1 when he plays real defensive
4-4-2 when he thinks he has a chance of winning

When he's moved to 4-4-2, Carsley has been the one to be sacrificed.

Anyone calling for Lee Carsley to be starting for Ireland has not seen him play for about 2 years.

You're right. He was on the bench for both home games. I happened to just watch them play Utd and Spurs where he was decent both times. And watched him a few times in the Championship last year, where he was great. You're probably right though now that I look at it a bit more closely.

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 2:19pm

The exuse about the Irish players not being good enough doesn't wash against playing a team like Cyprus. Cyprus are a decent team, but probably in or around the same level as Bohemians.

Now I'm a massive Bohs fan and think the world of Gary Deegan but I know if Andrews or Whelan were in the LOI they would most likely look class. Most of the players play in the English Premier League so should look a class above. However it was Cyprus who looked like the team with better footballers and I think Trapattoni is to blame for this.

You don't need to be Xavi or Iniesta to get on the ball, make space and pass it. This kind of thing needs to be instilled in the players. For 45 minutes against Norway in Oslo, Ireland looked excellent. We weren't particulary attacking or dangerous but we passed the ball and dominated the Norwegians in the first half. Since the rain hit in Oslo at the start of the second half last August we have not seen that football, perhaps for a spell against Georgia but thats it.

I like Trapattoni but he is not infallible. He picks Liam Miller who doesn't even have a club, when he could pick from Chris McCann, Keith Fahey, Andy Reid Lee Carsley, Gary Deegan and many more. For me that is not good management.

I'm delighted that we are in with a great chance of qualifying but its not all rosey.

briany · 07-09-2009 2:22pm

I was very pleased to see Robbie score his 40th goal in an irish jersey on saturday. Always nice to see him score when it means something too, not just a 5-0 minnow drubbing (although when does that happen these days?:P) Interestingly, Ireland have never lost a game in full time when Keane has scored, so heres hoping he scores against Italy!

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 2:27pm

I think Ireland should play three in midfield:

Keith Fahey Whelan Steven Reid

With Robbie Keane playing behind Doyle. With Duff and McGeady on the wings and the vision of Fahey and Reid with Whelan protecting I think we'd be very good.

LuckyLloyd · 07-09-2009 2:29pm

ANTIFA! wrote: »

Cyprus are a decent team, but probably in or around the same level as Bohemians.

Now I'm a massive Bohs fan...

Ah now! Cyprus are a world away from the likes of Boh's! Just look at their performances over their past three qualification campaigns.

Prufrock · 07-09-2009 2:34pm

People being a bit picky here. I mean we have 16 points from 8 games, are undefeated with a very real possibility of getting to the playoffs at least (With an outside chance of automatic qualification). We've just beaten Cyprus 2-1 in the same fixture last time out we conceded 5!

Traps taken a hard working squad of lads and given them a system that grinds out results. I'd love to see Ireland keep the ball a bit better in midfield but hey if we beat Italy its all good

I didn't think we'd finish 3rd in this group when it was drawn so enjoy the success eh?

Bobalicious93 · 07-09-2009 2:35pm

ANTIFA! wrote: »

I think Ireland should play three in midfield:

Keith Fahey Whelan Steven Reid

With Robbie Keane playing behind Doyle. With Duff and McGeady on the wings and the vision of Fahey and Reid with Whelan protecting I think we'd be very good.

And three at the back? No thanks.

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 2:36pm

Not really at all. Their team is comprised mostly of players from Cypriot League which is not better than LOI. They have had two teams qualify for Champions League in two seasons but with a bit of luck Bohs would as well.

Idbatterim · 07-09-2009 2:38pm

if bulgaria get a win in italy, the race is blown right back open and i would no longer particularly fancy our chances.

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 2:40pm

Then destiny is in our own hands. 6 points from last two games and we qualify automatically.

Idbatterim · 07-09-2009 2:42pm

if bulgaria draw it is the best result, because it finnished off bulgaria, but still means that if we beat the italians, we can qualify automatically...

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 2:48pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

if bulgaria draw it is the best result, because it finnished off bulgaria, but still means that if we beat the italians, we can qualify automatically...

I stated earlier that Bulgaria win is best for us. I think my biological calcumalator was overheating or something.

Definitely a draw would be the best result. We still need to beat the Italians to qualify automatically though.

Bugger them for getting 2 OG's...

Bobalicious93 · 07-09-2009 2:50pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

if bulgaria get a win in italy, the race is blown right back open and i would no longer particularly fancy our chances.

That all depends on whether or not we're going to push for topping the group.

A win for Bulgaria on Wednesday leaves the table:

Italy

P8--17pts
Ireland----P8--16pts
Bulgaria---P8--14pts

With us to play Italy at home, that means a win (however unlikely) leaves us in an extremely strong position to top the group.

However, a draw on Wednesday, and this happens:

Italy

P8--18pts
Ireland

P8--16pts
Bulgaria----P8--12pts

Thus almost ruling Bulgaria out altogether.

A win for Italy, and the table will look like this:

Italy

P8--20pts
Ireland---P8--16pts
Bulgaria--P8--11pts

If we simply want to ensure a play-off spot, an Italian win is the best option.

If we want to be ambitious and look to win the group, then we want an away win.

C'mon the Bulgars :pac:

Idbatterim · 07-09-2009 2:53pm

well worked out! as you say if its a draw, the italians are only 2 points ahead, having played an equal amount of matches. Meaning if we beat them and Monternegro we win the group...

Bobalicious93 · 07-09-2009 2:58pm

Just thinking about that again there, there isn't any difference between a Bulgaria win and a draw in regards to us, as 2 wins is still what we need to win the group. It just means Bulgaria will be closer to us if they win.

So going by that logic, a draw will probably be the best result.

Dublin_Gunner · 07-09-2009 3:06pm

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

That all depends on whether or not we're going to push for topping the group.

A win for Bulgaria on Wednesday leaves the table:

Italy
P8--17pts
Ireland----P8--16pts
Bulgaria---P8--14pts

With us to play Italy at home, that means a win (however unlikely) leaves us in an extremely strong position to top the group.

However, a draw on Wednesday, and this happens:

Italy
P8--18pts
Ireland
P8--16pts
Bulgaria----P8--12pts

Thus almost ruling Bulgaria out altogether.

A win for Italy, and the table will look like this:

Italy
P8--20pts
Ireland---P8--16pts
Bulgaria--P8--11pts

If we simply want to ensure a play-off spot, an Italian win is the best option.

If we want to be ambitious and look to win the group, then we want an away win.

C'mon the Bulgars :pac:

Actually, we don't really want a Bulgaria win - in order to be safe.

What difference does it make if the Italians are 1 or 2 points ahead? We beat them, and either way we win the group (provided we beat Montenegro of course).

But at least a draw would keep Bulgaria from snapping at our heals for the play offs should we not beat the Italians...

A draw keeps us just as safe as an Italian win for the play off, but also keeps us in position to win the group.

Draw is the best result for us.

Idbatterim · 07-09-2009 3:08pm

thank y ou dublin gunner for clarifying that, had it in my head but kknew how long it would take to type out! we want a draw, simple as!

Idbatterim · 07-09-2009 3:21pm

any chance of roy Keane coming out of retirement and bailing us out for the last 2 matches?

eirebhoy · 07-09-2009 3:52pm

ANTIFA! wrote: »

You don't need to be Xavi or Iniesta to get on the ball, make space and pass it. This kind of thing needs to be instilled in the players. For 45 minutes against Norway in Oslo, Ireland looked excellent. We weren't particulary attacking or dangerous but we passed the ball and dominated the Norwegians in the first half. Since the rain hit in Oslo at the start of the second half last August we have not seen that football, perhaps for a spell against Georgia but thats it.

Georgia, Montenegro and Italy we played very well. We were classier than those 3 teams away from home (albeit with a man advantage against Italy but still looked the better team).

As for the Cypriot league, it's a lot stronger than you probably think.

lisbon_lions · 07-09-2009 4:16pm

eirebhoy wrote: »

As for the Cypriot league, it's a lot stronger than you probably think.

+1.
A team in the champions league the last two years running: APOEL (2009-2010), Anorthosis (2008-2009).

carlop · 07-09-2009 4:16pm

The Cypriot league is a good bit ahead of the Eircom league, I mean Anorthosis took points of Inter last season, beat Olympiakos and Panathanaikos and came quite close to making the knock-out stages of the Champions League.

Indeed it is worth thinking that the Cypriot players probably have a fair bit more Champions League experience than the Irish do. They are not a bad team at all and have been very unlucky in this qualifying campaign.

rossie1977 · 07-09-2009 4:37pm

ANTIFA! wrote: »

The exuse about the Irish players not being good enough doesn't wash against playing a team like Cyprus. Cyprus are a decent team, but probably in or around the same level as Bohemians.
.

lol, bohs, cyprus did beat ireland 5-2 last time out remember, beat wales 3-1 and drew with germany at home, would bohs do that :eek:

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 4:39pm

Eh Anorthosis were knocked out in second round of Europa this season, while Derry got to third round and Pat's got to the 4th round.

Overall the Leagues would be pretty alike imo.

Getting to CL doesn't mean the league is better, Debrecen of Hungary got to CL this season and their League is ranked below Irelands.

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 4:41pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

lol, bohs, cyprus did beat ireland 5-2 last time out remember, beat wales 3-1 and drew with germany at home, would bohs do that :eek:

Last season St. Pat's drew at home with Hertha Berlin who finished 3rd in Bundesliga. Pat's aren't anywhere near Bohs so yeah I reckon they could do it.

rossie1977 · 07-09-2009 4:57pm

ANTIFA! wrote: »

Last season St. Pat's drew at home with Hertha Berlin who finished 3rd in Bundesliga. Pat's aren't anywhere near Bohs so yeah I reckon they could do it.

barnley beat liverpool and chelsea in the fa cup 2 seasons back, both would get to semi finals of the champions league a few weeks later, does that mean whoever finished top of the championship that season would have won the champions league had they been in it??

ANTIFA! · 07-09-2009 5:05pm

Seriously what are you talking about?

There was a very good chance Bohemians could have come up against APOEL in the CL this season, a team Cyprus gets many of its players from.
If Bohs played APOEL they might not be as good but they would be within their level and would beat APOEL on a much more regular basis than Barnsley beat Chelsea.

Cyprus vs. Republic of Ireland - 05/09/09 [mod warning post #293]

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