Opportunities out of the viaduct collapse

lyda

I suspect 3 to 6 months is a likely timescale for fixing the viaduct. While that's happening, why can't Irish Rail use the opportunity to do some other projects:

1. Electrify the line from Malahide to Balbriggan.
2. Raise bridges to allow for double decker trains.
3. Upgrade switching.

Maybe all of them can't be completed, but major work could be started.

Last I knew we were paying a lot of unemployment to construction workers. And we're apparently forking over €60 billion to the bankers and builders. How about some money towards making major improvements to the northern line during this period. With no traffic for 6 months it will make it much easier.

Bluetonic

lyda wrote: »

2. Raise bridges to allow for double decker trains.

With no traffic for 6 months it will make it much easier.

There is still a train service in operation between Skerries and Drogheda.

All the bridges were upgraded some time ago, double deckers and wide trains are already catered for. You won't see double deckers as the load time and the platform capacity wouldn't make it worthwhile.

spurious

Or go completely mad and build a spur off to the airport.

Bluetonic

spurious wrote: »

Or go completely mad and build a spur off to the airport.

Thats never going to happen.

cruizer101

Don't be silly all those are sensible ideas there's not a chance they'll happen

Bridges, can't see happening that is a big job and I can never see us getting double deckers.

Electrifying the line would be a good idea even just as far as south of skerries where no trains are running.

Actually when I saw the title i thought you meant oppotunities for entrpenarial individuals starting bus runs or something

Bluetonic

cruizer101 wrote: »

Bridges, can't see happening that is a big job and I can never see us getting double deckers.

Then there is the fact that they have all been done already.

Carawaystick

I suppose you could raise ( or lower) the bridge over the road at Skerries, heading for Lusk.

Or install crossovers so rail services could run further south towards Donabate or Lusk.
Last time there was a rail outage there were no services on this section of line leaving Donabate fairly cut off from the rest of the non 33b world. If there were trains running to Donabate, you could have busses shuttling through the car park and out the hearse road to Lissenhall and on to the city. There's an entrance and exit there so busses should be able to loop around.

center15

lyda wrote: »

1. Electrify the line from Malahide to Balbriggan.

Just wondering what benefit would Electrifying the line have would this be for dart services or for a new electric train?

Victor

Irish Rail will be ordering 300-500 extra DART carriages.

lyda

Bluetonic wrote: »

There is still a train service in operation between Skerries and Drogheda.

All the bridges were upgraded some time ago, double deckers and wide trains are already catered for. You won't see double deckers as the load time and the platform capacity wouldn't make it worthwhile.

There are no studies that support your theory. All double deckers do is provide seating to the passengers who currently stand. Same numbers going through the doors.

If ridership increased then yes, there might be increased stop times. But I don't see that as a bad thing as it would mean less cars on the roads (and more people to demand better public transport.

lyda

center15 wrote: »

Just wondering what benefit would Electrifying the line have would this be for dart services or for a new electric train?

Either would seem like good options. In many European countries (my American education led me to believe Ireland is part of Europe, but my experience living here indicates otherwise) they have trains that are both diesel and electric. Perhaps we could study transport systems there to get some ideas...

Bluetonic

lyda wrote: »

There are no studies that support your theory. All double deckers do is provide seating to the passengers who currently stand. Same numbers going through the doors.

If ridership increased then yes, there might be increased stop times. But I don't see that as a bad thing as it would mean less cars on the roads (and more people to demand better public transport.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that increased seating capacity leads to more people using the services as it has improved. At peak times you will have more people on platforms result in longer loading times. We hardly need a study to prove that. I know of dozens of people who drive but would get the train if there was in an increased chance of getting seat.

What the northern rail line needs is a high frequency (5 - 10 minutes at peak time) normal capacity service, not a high capacity normal frequency. Your living on a different planet if you think double decker trains are the way to go - they reduce frequency.

Sizzler

lyda wrote: »

I suspect 3 to 6 months is a likely timescale for fixing the viaduct. While that's happening, why can't Irish Rail use the opportunity to do some other projects:

1. Electrify the line from Malahide to Balbriggan.
2. Raise bridges to allow for double decker trains.
3. Upgrade switching.

Maybe all of them can't be completed, but major work could be started.

Last I knew we were paying a lot of unemployment to construction workers. And we're apparently forking over €60 billion to the bankers and builders. How about some money towards making major improvements to the northern line during this period. With no traffic for 6 months it will make it much easier.

Sure why not try and build a drive thru McDonalds on the viaduct while they're at it?

Seriously, come on. You've actually answered your own question. The country is bollixed due to the commercial loanbook and you want the govt to shell out god knows how many million extra on some fanciful rail network changes exclusively in your neck of the woods due to a an incursion on about .01% of the entire rail network? FFS.

Lets face it theres 100 yards of track banjaxed, not the whole bloody NCD route why would they electrify the line a further 15km or so The mind boggles!

As for the double decker train idea...come on ! It made me laugh anyway

lyda

At least it's clear that our unimaginative politicians are accurately reflecting the will of some of the people.

Sizzler

lyda wrote: »

At least it's clear that our unimaginative politicians are accurately reflecting the will of some of the people.

If you want to be commended for imaginivity you should have said something imaginative, not farcical and illogical.

If you cant see the difference then maybe its you that has been aligned to the governments fiscal way of thinking and not me

lyda

Transport 21 already includes electrification plans. One presumes this is a project where feasibility and other such planning has been done. As the article notes, "As electric rolling stock can accelerate faster, the possibility of faster journey times and increased frequencies will be an added bonus to the through-service and interchange benefits."

Of course that also addresses the issue of slower boarding times for more people on double decker trains. Note that several countries with highly effective rail networks manage to use double decker trains and provide a much higher level of service.

While the major issue is switching in Connolly - which this outage can't really help with - I have seen switching failures at various points between Malahide and Balbriggan. More then I think should be seen. So addressing those in the long term would be good. Since there's a potential long term outage, it might be possible to arrange other train schedules to allow for work in Connolly station on that switching system that could minimize interruption.

meditraitor

They could repair and upgrade the viaduct to allow walking or cycle track. It would make the journey between Donabate and Malahide much easier for recreational use,

Many possibilites.

But as someone pointed out, we is broked

trad

On topic, what about a transfer by sea from Drogheda to the Liffey by fast hovercraft.

http://www.hoverwork.com/news.php?nID=4

It's fast, sails in all weathers and no traffic lights.

You could also run a shuttle from Balbriggan to Malahide no landing pad necessary, just a beach. Each carries 160 passengers - more than 3 buses and would make the trip interesting. Just my 2c worth

The Hill Billy

meditraitor wrote: »

But as someone pointed out, we is broked

QFT. Now is probably not the time to be expecting any investment in significant infrastructure projects.

In relation to the debate about whether double decker trains are an option & worth the investment in rebuild-ing all relevant bridges, overpasses, etc. This isn’t really worth it.

In my experience, single-decker trains are more suited to the spacing of the stations on the Northern Outer Suburban route to allow for optimal board-ing & unboarding. Double-deckers are only really efficient in a high-speed, long distance routes with significant distance be-tween stations.

I’m living in Switzerland which has one of the most efficient rail networks in the world. Local commuter routes are served by single-deckers, long distance are served by high-speed double-deckers. And it works.

squonk

I'm not sure electrifying the line to Skerries wouldbe much good either. Already the DART takes an age to get to Malahide. I know it's due to the amount of stops but you already notice a big difference in speed if one of the commuter trains gets stuck behind a DART coming out of connolly. Would a better strategy not be a new track emerging after malahide or Howth Junction and this would allow commuters to get in and out of dublin very quickly. Not sure about the possibility of an underground track but if they could manage it for the Port Tunnel, surely it's possible too for rail.

blastman

squonk wrote: »

I'm not sure electrifying the line to Skerries wouldbe much good either. Already the DART takes an age to get to Malahide. I know it's due to the amount of stops but you already notice a big difference in speed if one of the commuter trains gets stuck behind a DART coming out of connolly. Would a better strategy not be a new track emerging after malahide or Howth Junction and this would allow commuters to get in and out of dublin very quickly. Not sure about the possibility of an underground track but if they could manage it for the Port Tunnel, surely it's possible too for rail.

Exactly, increased frequency is no good because there is only one set of lines. Go to any other major city and there are multiple sets of lines to allow for trains of differing speeds and frequency to arrive at the central hub without holding each other up. If we did that, then you could increase both the capacity and the frequency of commuter trains.

Of course, especially now, we'll confine ourselves to papering over the cracks while waiting for the next collapse.

kcools

trad wrote: »

On topic, what about a transfer by sea from Drogheda to the Liffey by fast hovercraft.

http://www.hoverwork.com/news.php?nID=4

It's fast, sails in all weathers and no traffic lights.

You could also run a shuttle from Balbriggan to Malahide no landing pad necessary, just a beach. Each carries 160 passengers - more than 3 buses and would make the trip interesting. Just my 2c worth

I was thinking about this the other day. Are there any similar services in the world that anybody knows of (bar the trial in the link above)? Surely there must be an efficient way to commute from Drogheda/Balbriggan to Dublin by sea? And yes I'm being serious!

bredawalsh

www.tripmi.ie is a new carpooling website which can help all the frustrated train commuters affected by the Malahide viaduct collapse who now have to use their cars.:)

trad

kcools wrote: »

I was thinking about this the other day. Are there any similar services in the world that anybody knows of (bar the trial in the link above)? Surely there must be an efficient way to commute from Drogheda/Balbriggan to Dublin by sea? And yes I'm being serious!

I didn't post that link as a joke. I see it as a real alternative to rail travel or in the current situation, no rail travel

http://www.hovertravel.co.uk/

There are plenty of passenger hovercraft in operation, speeds of up to 50mph if my memory serves me right, and as I've said before, no traffic lights.

for a country surrounded by water we make precious little use of it.

lostexpectation

so anyone ever drawn a plan of a viaduct with ped/cyc access, it seems the idea has been there for long time, i guess it would have to be a low design, a rail track then a gap then a path...

is the biggest problem ownership, funding, responsibility or safety?

Victor

trad wrote: »

On topic, what about a transfer by sea from Drogheda to the Liffey by fast hovercraft.

http://www.hoverwork.com/news.php?nID=4

It's fast, sails in all weathers and no traffic lights.

I think "all weathers" may be a gross exaggeration.

Alan Farrell

meditraitor wrote: »

They could repair and upgrade the viaduct to allow walking or cycle track. It would make the journey between Donabate and Malahide much easier for recreational use,

Many possibilites.

But as someone pointed out, we is broked

lostexpectation wrote: »

so anyone ever drawn a plan of a viaduct with ped/cyc access, it seems the idea has been there for long time, i guess it would have to be a low design, a rail track then a gap then a path...

it the biggest problem ownership, funding, responsibility or safety?

Funny you both should mention that..

http://alanfarrell.blogspot.com/2009/08/malahide-railway-bridge-collapse.html

Bluetonic

Alan Farrell wrote: »

Funny you both should mention that..

http://alanfarrell.blogspot.com/2009/08/malahide-railway-bridge-collapse.html

Funny you should think of it too as I've heard it mentioned by the majority or people who have talked about reconstruction since Friday.

lostexpectation

trad wrote: »

I didn't post that link as a joke. I see it as a real alternative to rail travel or in the current situation, no rail travel

http://www.hovertravel.co.uk/

There are plenty of passenger hovercraft in operation, speeds of up to 50mph if my memory serves me right, and as I've said before, no traffic lights.

for a country surrounded by water we make precious little use of it.

yeh recently saw a website about the seaside piers, i hadn't really realised the were built for coastal travel rather then just seaside real estate, how about boats along the coast.

Absurdum

Bluetonic wrote: »

Funny you should think of it too as I've heard it mentioned by the majority or people who have talked about reconstruction since Friday.

which Friday were you talking about?

“I also believe that this is a perfect opportunity for Fingal County Council to represent its objective to complete a footpath and cycle track across the viaduct. This objective of the development plan was raised while I was Mayor of Fingal in July 2007, I believe that this project would be a tremendous benefit to the greater community whilst also completing a vital link in the footpath network for the north county.

LeoB

lostexpectation wrote: »

is the biggest problem ownership, funding, responsibility or safety?

None. The biggest problem is the will to get it done.

The only way to solve the rail problem if for higher frequency between 6.30am and 9.30a. and 4.30 to 7pm. Its a joke the way people are packed onto the early morning trains.

Dublin bus could also play a role with putting on a permanent express bus from Skerries direct to Dublin Via Loughshinny and 1 from Rush via Lusk at 7.15a.m with 1st stop being I.F.S.C. or OConnell St. This would take a certain amount of pressure of the early morning trains