New huge 'Victory Christian Fellowship' centre being completed in Firhouse, Dublin

philologos · 18-09-2009 12:26am

Zamboni: They are probably in negative equity anyway :pac:

I don't see what the issue is. Freedom of religion is recognised in our constitution. If this church has planning permission, and this wasn't opposed, I can't possibly see what real objection people can have to this.

Zamboni · 18-09-2009 12:34am

Jakkass wrote: »

Zamboni: They are probably in negative equity anyway :pac:

I don't see what the issue is. Freedom of religion is recognised in our constitution. If this church has planning permission, and this wasn't opposed, I can't possibly see what real objection people can have to this.

Yeah but apparently you can pray anywhere.
Could they not have built a sports ground or something useful?

philologos · 18-09-2009 12:38am

Zamboni wrote: »

Yeah but apparently you can pray anywhere.
Could they not have built a sports ground or something useful?

A church is useful to believers. Taking offence at religious expression, and the construction of buildings for religious purposes is nothing but utterly futile.

I personally do believe Victory have gone to certain excesses here and that small churches are better than very big ones, but that isn't enough to hinder anything that they wish to do if it is legal.

Zamboni · 18-09-2009 12:45am

Jakkass wrote: »

A church is useful to believers. Taking offence at religious expression, and the construction of buildings for religious purposes is nothing but utterly futile.

I personally do believe Victory have gone to certain excesses here and that small churches are better than very big ones, but that isn't enough to hinder anything that they wish to do if it is legal.

Yeah but a velodrome would have been awesome.

Calibos · 18-09-2009 2:38am

Used to live in Firhouse as a kid. Left in '87. I feel like an old fart in saying this but...."Back in my day it was all fields". Put it this way, They were still building Monalea Grove when I left.

That area wasn't always called Kilakee though. Used to be called Tymon Heights/Drive etc etc wasn't it?

Anyway, while I understand the fuss about this particular evangelical groups ethos with it sounding borderline. GOD TV...."show us the money, show us the money. Say Praaaaaiiiiise...ahh...Jesus...ahh..........say jeeeeesuuuusahhhhh"

In terms of the building....well its large alright but I was expecting a big gaudy vulgar US style mega church. ie. no mistaking what it is. But that to me looks like it could be a big modern community centre or something. Wouldn't put me off buying in the area. Then again, maybe you have to be standing outside the gate to appreciate its size or ugliness rather than looking at that vid or google maps.

studiorat · 18-09-2009 7:03am

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is. Freedom of religion is recognised in our constitution. If this church has planning permission, and this wasn't opposed, I can't possibly see what real objection people can have to this.

Bringing unwanted traffic into the area for starters.

It is interesting to note that Victory Christian Fellowship don't have an issue with speculation on the housing market. A despeciable practice IMO.

philologos · 18-09-2009 11:07am

studiorat: Bringing unwanted traffic? To a church?

One could say that for any building. Sounds like a pretty lame objection to me, but even still, if there was a real objection it should have been brought up in the planning stages.

rainbow kirby · 18-09-2009 11:10am

Calibos wrote: »

That area wasn't always called Kilakee though. Used to be called Tymon Heights/Drive etc etc wasn't it?

It was Kilakee when I moved there in 1988, but I think it was Tymon Heights or something like that in the 70s/early 80s.

Jakkass wrote: »

studiorat: Bringing unwanted traffic? To a church?

To be perfectly honest, the area, the parking facilities available and the available public transport (49 lol) can't really handle the capacity of the church if they manage to fill it...

To be sure · 05-02-2010 2:15pm

Came accross this forum about the New Victory Christian Fellowship Church in Firhouse. What a place and who funded this?

I saw in Court Records that there is a fraud case in the High Court pending against two of the Pastors Gerry Byrne and Brendan Hade.

Galvasean · 05-02-2010 2:41pm

Religion and fraud? Two peas on a pod.

LostinKildare · 06-02-2010 1:39am

Jakkass wrote: »

studiorat: Bringing unwanted traffic? To a church?

One could say that for any building. Sounds like a pretty lame objection to me, but even still, if there was a real objection it should have been brought up in the planning stages.

Actually that was one of the several reasons why planning permission was refused by South Dublin County Council. When the church appealed the decision, the An Bord Pleanala planning inspector also advised refusal -- nevertheless, ABP decided to overturn the decision (as usual, in a closed-door meeting, and giving no explanation of their decision).

Mmm, divine intervention p'raps?

TheLargerBowl · 06-02-2010 1:45am

LostinKildare wrote: »

Mmm, divine intervention p'raps?

Divine intervention in a brown envelope :pac:

super_furry · 06-02-2010 2:27am

Well the story going around locally is that the church forked out for the pretty extensive road widening that went on, on the road the church is on, and further up. Probably bull****, but it's what's going around.

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2010 2:44am

Aw this is the first I heard of what the buildign was. I passed it by loads fo times durign construction and since completion. I thought it was a ne wgym or somesuch. I feel cheated.:(

Dave! · 06-02-2010 3:21am

Welcome to the forum, Stekelly ! Stick around !

Undergod · 06-02-2010 1:18pm

Oh man, that's where these guys have gone to? They used to be beside my college, we're actually renting the old building off them at the moment.

LostinKildare · 06-02-2010 1:54pm

super_furry wrote: »

Well the story going around locally is that the church forked out for the pretty extensive road widening that went on, on the road the church is on, and further up. Probably bull****, but it's what's going around.

Doubt it. I can see why people would think that because that's a typical arrangement -- development contribution for planning permission -- but it would be noted in the planning docs. The roads dept probably didn't ask for a contribution because they had recommended refusal.

In this case, it appears that SDCC paid the church for road frontage land they needed for the road project around the same time that Victory was looking for perm to build their church.

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/209775.htm
http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&ref=SD04A/0666

Denalihighway · 11-07-2011 1:40pm

So for anyone who had been following this thread or anyone new who wanted a quick catch-up. Seems things are going from strength to strength up at Victory.

We knew the dedicated followers (mostly African immigrants) would be there in strength obviously but it seems now that the local community are falling for them hook line and sinker also. Figured this would happen.

And what’s not to fall for?

Big ‘community centre’ type building, Starbucks with seating beside manicured gardens, concerts, restaurant, kiddies entertainment, crèche and games rooms etc etc.

This week they also have this ‘strong man’ type exhibition – see http://www.victory.ie/ - featuring an American style (of course) show of boorish feats of strength followed by a few hours of how these strong men were saved by God and why you should give your bank details to Victory. That will be jam packed with Victory devotees as well people from the community who don’t really know what they’re dealing with.

Word is spreading about how great the centre is and how nice the people are. We all saw that coming too didn’t we? I give it another year or less before the rest of the older religious community and the Catholic Church are seriously complaining about it stealing their parishioners etc. Its already happening. I imagine the Catholic Church will have to contemporise at that point to provide some competition so prepare your parents for their local parish priest rapping his sermon and/or a McDonalds/Burger King being installed on the church grounds.

It makes me ever so nauseous even writing this. I have to pass by this human mind control experiment every day coming home from work. I find it very hard to accept this is happening on our doorstep in 2011.

Some facts to reacquaint ourselves with the interesting stories behind this crew. Do me a favour and don’t take my word for. Read up on it yourself:

The Pastors (the bosses) of Victory - Brendan and Sheila Hade, were recently 26% shareholders in a company called Global Mobile Vision (GMV). Do a google search and read about them. Let me summarise what happened. They were a ‘tech company’ with one client which they supposedly streamed religious content for.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/70282 (this takes some reading but its worth it. It includes contributions from former employees and lots of interesting facts and figures about who owned what and who did what and where they are now)

GMV got a sh*t-load of money from the IDA, set up in Clondalkin, hired a load of employee who did no work and ended up out of pocket for wages amid harassment and imprisonment accusations. GMV ended up in the courts owing over €1.4 million to ‘God’ knows how many creditors. From the Irish Times back in the day: “Employees are owed more than €160,000 in wage arrears and other payments, according to the statement of affairs. The Revenue is owed €150,633. Trade creditors total €115,179, while DIRECTORS LOANS (!!!) are €1 million.”

I know, personally, someone who worked for them (mostly surfing the net) and went to Florida with them on ‘business’. She was on big money and did f*ck all. She was unnerved by the business trip and didn’t last long working for them.

I also personally know someone who through their line of work has seen direct debits in a few African college students' bank accounts to the church. These students are not affluent people but have direct debits to Victory...

Links
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0615/globalmobilevision.html
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/article737468.ece
http://politico.ie/economy/537-global-mobile-vision-sued-by-recruitment-company-investigated-by-department

Victory used to run to asylum reception centres initially here in Dublin. They received €2.5million in government funding for these in 2004. Brendan Hade has said their interest was “commercial” as well as charitable. Don’t you think this is very interesting and coincidental considering most of their parishioners are immigrants? Nice little filtering system possibly?

At one point they owned 3 centres in Kilmacud House, Kilmarnock House in Killiney, and MILVERTON HOUSE, MONTGOMERY STREET, CARLOW and but as far as I know they have lost all these lucrative contracts due to the downtown in the immigration. There is a very interesting report on the Killiney centre here http://www.ria.gov.ie/en/RIA/RIAMay04(A4).pdf/Files/RIAMay04(A4).pdf which was undertaken amid accusations of “prison-like conditions” by asylum-seeker occupants.

http://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/phoenix-08-37-41.pdf
(recent award of planning permission for residential development on Kilmacud asylum centre site)

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/resurrecting-religion-by-alex-meehan-sunday-business-post/
(recent newspaper article about the of fast-growing VCF)

The owners of Global Mobile vision were an African couple called David and Ester Crownborne – who are in Florida since fleeing Ireland after the court judgement (bench warrants were issued after not appearing in court). You can read all about them online too. David Crownborn brilliantly accused Minister Michael Martin of being part of a “Commie” conspiracy in Ireland to undermine GMV amid all kinds of other tripe like predictable racism accusations etc.

This is what they’ve been up to since fleeing Ireland http://www.tampabay.com/news/article510953.ece

Reminder:
Brendan and Sheila Hade (Pastors/leaders/Kaisers of Victory ) were shareholders in GMV with the Crownborns. What kind of people get fowled up with the likes of the Crownborns in commercial endeavours???

To say it all stinks to high ‘heaven’ is an understatement. The more you dig the more it smells.

One of my mother’s friends suggested they go up to Victory the other day for a gander and a coffee. My mam refused thankfully. But this is how its happening…

Business is booming. up to 1000 on Sunday services. Very, very unsettling. Please, please don’t tell me its “harmless” after reading all the above.

need to stop writing...

eoin5 · 11-07-2011 1:58pm

Denali, the GMV thing was funny alright but weren't they just shareholders? Would they not have lost their investment when everything went south?

The asylum centre stuff is pretty bad though...

Denalihighway · 11-07-2011 2:40pm

eoin5 wrote: »

Denali, the GMV thing was funny alright but weren't they just shareholders? Would they not have lost their investment when everything went south?

The asylum centre stuff is pretty bad though...

I think its more the fact that they were happy to be in business with the Crownborns that I'd be worried about Eoin. Not to mention that 'business people' run the church for starters.

Rev Hellfire · 11-07-2011 2:46pm

There may come a time when we all look back fondly at the good old days of the catholic church if these and other american evangelical churches ever truly get a hold here.

Denalihighway · 11-07-2011 2:53pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

There may come a time when we all look back fondly at the good old days of the catholic church if these and other american evangelical churches ever truly get a hold here.

Agreed.

the one good thing is that immigration is way down and so their membership-on-tap aspect is slowing.

(I'm in no way commenting on the merits, or lacktherof, of immigration)

i genuinely think we have a duty to at least arm the 'swing-voters' with the facts, or else what you're talking about will become a reality with irish nationals too. the african immigrants are easy targets unortunately and are unlikely to be reasoned with.

AhSureTisGrand · 11-07-2011 3:17pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Worrying indeed. With the spread of American evangelical Christian churches there may come a time when we look back fondly at old catholic Ireland

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

There may come a time when we all look back fondly at the good old days of the catholic church if these and other american evangelical churches ever truly get a hold here.

Rev Hellfire · 11-07-2011 3:27pm

At thirty pages, you've a longer memory and more patience than I seem to have

coffee_cake · 11-07-2011 3:30pm

12 pages :pac::pac:

philologos · 11-07-2011 3:38pm

Denalihighway wrote: »

And what’s not to fall for?

Big ‘community centre’ type building, Starbucks with seating beside manicured gardens, concerts, restaurant, kiddies entertainment, crèche and games rooms etc etc.

Admittedly I'd find all that stuff a turn off. For me church is about Christians meeting together to give praise and honour to God and also for spiritual growth and development. The bigger and more commercial the church the more and more I am suspicious of it.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

There may come a time when we all look back fondly at the good old days of the catholic church if these and other american evangelical churches ever truly get a hold here.

I wouldn't call them American by any means other than commercialised. Also evangelical churches are a broad mixture really. The thing about Victory from having discussed with someone who used to be a member there is that it is very much prosperity gospel. The idea that if you donate more and more in the church that God will bless you materially. Not all evangelical churches are like this by any means really though and I would say a distinct minority are.

Rev Hellfire · 11-07-2011 3:58pm

bluewolf wrote: »

12 pages :pac::pac:

At 12 pages you've a bigger monitor than me

Rev Hellfire · 11-07-2011 3:59pm

philologos wrote: »

I wouldn't call them American by any means other than commercialised. Also evangelical churches are a broad mixture really. The thing about Victory from having discussed with someone who used to be a member there is that it is very much prosperity gospel. The idea that if you donate more and more in the church that God will bless you materially. Not all evangelical churches are like this by any means really though and I would say a distinct minority are.

Yep you're correct evangelical is the incorrect term to use.

eoin5 · 11-07-2011 5:25pm

Denalihighway wrote: »

I think its more the fact that they were happy to be in business with the Crownborns that I'd be worried about Eoin. Not to mention that 'business people' run the church for starters.

Ah I see what you mean.