New huge 'Victory Christian Fellowship' centre being completed in Firhouse, Dublin

philologos

Dades wrote: »

Just the catholic church and Hotel California, it seems.

Well played :pac:

robindch

alie wrote: »

The cctv footage from the centre went to cork and could not be retrieved!!

I'm not a legal type, but I believe that if you request cctv footage making it clear that it's on foot of a potential legal complaint, it's a criminal offense for the holder to delete or "lose" the footage.

alie

philologos wrote: »

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Indeed, however it's rather sinister they were not allowed to leave.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Looks at alies 'post:

I dont think alies' issue was with there being some preaching going on, its with them laying a hand on his/her son when he tried to leave.

The other claims involve legal issues, and are a good deal more doubtful. While not completely ruling them out I personally would need to see these substantiated in some way before running away with them.

Not that I believe that they are impossible, but they are serious enough claims to question.

Well, tallaght garda station have evidence.

philologos

alie wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Indeed, however it's rather sinister they were not allowed to leave.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Looks at alies 'post:

I dont think alies' issue was with there being some preaching going on, its with them laying a hand on his/her son when he tried to leave.

The other claims involve legal issues, and are a good deal more doubtful. While not completely ruling them out I personally would need to see these substantiated in some way before running away with them.

Not that I believe that they are impossible, but they are serious enough claims to question.

Well, tallaght garda station have evidence.

Exactly my point. It is a legal issue which has yet to be resolved or substantiated. Wisdom would suggest waiting for court proceedings before posting as it could complicate things for you.

nozzferrahhtoo

"Wisdom" generally does suggest waiting for the evidence before coming to any conclusions. This does not seem to apply to some of the ideas you espouse such as the existence of god however :-) So it is somewhat comical to see you handing out such advice.

alie

philologos wrote: »

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Indeed, however it's rather sinister they were not allowed to leave.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Looks at alies 'post:

I dont think alies' issue was with there being some preaching going on, its with them laying a hand on his/her son when he tried to leave.

The other claims involve legal issues, and are a good deal more doubtful. While not completely ruling them out I personally would need to see these substantiated in some way before running away with them.

Not that I believe that they are impossible, but they are serious enough claims to question.

MOD SNIP

<mod> A serious accusation has been made and cannot be proven here so I'm removing it.</mod>

oceanclub

alie wrote: »

Ata first it was advertised as a safe hangout for kids, he really enjoyed it, then they started trying to recruit them, we allowed him to say the closing prayer but as time went on , they started to preach, he went with his mates about 2 weeks ago and they started to do a talk on drugs, my son asked to leave as he felt uncomfortabe and his friend also, they were stopped from leaving in a most disgusting manner , all taped on his phone,

Can you put this video online somewhere?

P.

MrPudding

oceanclub wrote: »

Can you put this video online somewhere?

P.

I think that would be a very silly thing to do of there is an investigation in progress.

MrP

username123

MrPudding wrote: »

I think that would be a very silly thing to do of there is an investigation in progress.

MrP

What investigation? The OP has stated the guards handed out written and oral warnings - thats it.

iguana

username123 wrote: »

It would seem obvious to me that sending kids to that environment is going to expose them to prayers, preaching - basically to the belief system of the church. The same thing would happen if they were going to a youth group run by the Catholic Church - or any church.

I don't actually think that's true. When I was a child and teenager I was involved in lots of clubs/events that either took place in the church hall or had the involvement of a clergy member and very little happened by way of prayers and preaching. I was in the brownies and girl guides which does have a Brownie promise that mentions God, but other than that there was no religion except for celebrating holidays, but we also celebrated Halloween, Bealtaine, etc.

I attended speech and drama classes in the church hall that had no religion whatsoever. I attended summer play schemes that had no religion. I was part of a youth group, which organised parties and outings for the disabled children and teenagers in the area and mainly met in the church hall, I know that one of the priests was big into helping that group. We had parties for halloween that had no religion at all. I organised a children's pantomime that was entirely religion free, except for the fairy godfather.

I think that where people are vulnerable to groups like Victory is that they may well have been involved in church youth groups in the 80s and 90s that had minimal religious instruction, because as far as the church was concerned they'd already got us. And because they were genuine community groups. The woman in the estate across the road, who's daughter was in my class organised the brownies and guides. The woman who did the speech and drama lived a few doors down from her. The people driving the youth group for the disabled children lived between my house and my primary school, etc. The church already existed and it's members were using it's facilities for fun stuff they enjoyed, indoctrination was just not it's purpose. The situation with this Victory group is very different, but people who have experienced perfectly benign church youth groups in their youth may not be aware of the difference.

alie

iguana wrote: »

username123 wrote: »

It would seem obvious to me that sending kids to that environment is going to expose them to prayers, preaching - basically to the belief system of the church. The same thing would happen if they were going to a youth group run by the Catholic Church - or any church.

I don't actually think that's true. When I was a child and teenager I was involved in lots of clubs/events that either took place in the church hall or had the involvement of a clergy member and very little happened by way of prayers and preaching. I was in the brownies and girl guides which does have a Brownie promise that mentions God, but other than that there was no religion except for celebrating holidays, but we also celebrated Halloween, Bealtaine, etc.

I attended speech and drama classes in the church hall that had no religion whatsoever. I attended summer play schemes that had no religion. I was part of a youth group, which organised parties and outings for the disabled children and teenagers in the area and mainly met in the church hall, I know that one of the priests was big into helping that group. We had parties for halloween that had no religion at all. I organised a children's pantomime that was entirely religion free, except for the fairy godfather.

I think that where people are vulnerable to groups like Victory is that they may well have been involved in church youth groups in the 80s and 90s that had minimal religious instruction, because as far as the church was concerned they'd already got us. And because they were genuine community groups. The woman in the estate across the road, who's daughter was in my class organised the brownies and guides. The woman who did the speech and drama lived a few doors down from her. The people driving the youth group for the disabled children lived between my house and my primary school, etc. The church already existed and it's members were using it's facilities for fun stuff they enjoyed, indoctrination was just not it's purpose. The situation with this Victory group is very different, but people who have experienced perfectly benign church youth groups in their youth may not be aware of the difference.

The video is in the hands of our solicitor.

Zamboni

alie wrote: »

The video is in the hands of our solicitor.

Unfortunately, I doubt he is as expensive as the teams they could muster.

alie

Expense is not the issus as another incident has taken place, my son was not involved as we have banned him from ever going next or near the place again, my issue was we were told that one of the guys was transferred but he wasnt and it happened again, :mad:

Dades

alie wrote: »

Expense is not the issus as another incident has taken place, my son was not involved as we have banned him from ever going next or near the place again, my issue was we were told that one of the guys was transferred but he wasnt and it happened again, :mad:

Ah yes, the favoured solution to dodgy clerics. A covert transfer.

Denalihighway

this is all very very interesting. thanks for your input Alie. i'm very to hear about your troubles.

if there's anything positive that can come out of this its that this crowd are already showing themselves to be the zealots we know they are. the sooner and more widely exposed they are the better.

the last thing we need is this thread being shut down or Boards.ie getting any legal threats so try and refrain from any unsubstantiated stuff but please keep us posted Alie! the fact that this thread comes up 2nd or 3rd in google searches for the church is simply marvelous so it is. lets keep it that way.

and also Alie, if VCF have any sense at all (I'll give them credit for not being completely insane), they'll be watching this thread so don't be showing your hand regarding court cases etc.

philologos

iguana wrote: »

I don't actually think that's true. When I was a child and teenager I was involved in lots of clubs/events that either took place in the church hall or had the involvement of a clergy member and very little happened by way of prayers and preaching. I was in the brownies and girl guides which does have a Brownie promise that mentions God, but other than that there was no religion except for celebrating holidays, but we also celebrated Halloween, Bealtaine, etc.

I attended speech and drama classes in the church hall that had no religion whatsoever. I attended summer play schemes that had no religion. I was part of a youth group, which organised parties and outings for the disabled children and teenagers in the area and mainly met in the church hall, I know that one of the priests was big into helping that group. We had parties for halloween that had no religion at all. I organised a children's pantomime that was entirely religion free, except for the fairy godfather.

I think that where people are vulnerable to groups like Victory is that they may well have been involved in church youth groups in the 80s and 90s that had minimal religious instruction, because as far as the church was concerned they'd already got us. And because they were genuine community groups. The woman in the estate across the road, who's daughter was in my class organised the brownies and guides. The woman who did the speech and drama lived a few doors down from her. The people driving the youth group for the disabled children lived between my house and my primary school, etc. The church already existed and it's members were using it's facilities for fun stuff they enjoyed, indoctrination was just not it's purpose. The situation with this Victory group is very different, but people who have experienced perfectly benign church youth groups in their youth may not be aware of the difference.

The idea is why do you expect for the church not to share it's teachings in that building.

It's an unreasonable expectation for someone to bring their child into a Christian church and not hear about Jesus in some way. Even if it is from other children there rather than the people leading.

The entire point of a genuinely Christian church is to share the good news of Christ to as many people as possible. The difference is I don't see sharing this as "indoctrination" as people are free to think otherwise, and I don't see this as sinister in any way. This is what I would expect any church youth group to do irrespective of denomination.

As for some of the claims that alie has said, if they are true that is damning. If not it is slander at least, possibly libellious at most even if I don't like how Victory operates.

iguana

philologos wrote: »

The idea is why do you expect for the church not to share it's teachings in that building.

Because they don't. The established churches just don't really engage in that sort of thing and the halls, while owned by the church are mainly used by regular people for a hire charge.

philologos wrote: »

It's an unreasonable expectation for someone to bring their child into a Christian church and not hear about Jesus in some way. Even if it is from other children there rather than the people leading.

It isn't if people experienced many church hall located events throughout their own childhood and teens and never heard about Jesus at them.

philologos

iguana wrote: »

Because they don't. The established churches just don't really engage in that sort of thing and the halls, while owned by the church are mainly used by regular people for a hire charge.

What do you mean by the "established churches"? (Roman Catholic? CofI? Presbyterian?)

Personally I can think of countless times where churches have youth groups with an aim to further the Gospel even if at other times churches do perform other civic function as a means of taking a role in the community.

The expectation that it should be regarded as wrong for a Christian church to be Christian in fullness is absurd. That's the essence of what I'm getting at.

iguana wrote: »

It isn't if people experienced many church hall located events throughout their own childhood and teens and never heard about Jesus at them.

I'm confused about how you've rendered this sentence. "It isn't if" is the unclear part.

iguana

philologos wrote: »

What do you mean by the "established churches"? (Roman Catholic? CofI? Presbyterian?)

I mean the ones that are well established in the areas.

philologos wrote: »

I'm confused about how you've rendered this sentence. "It isn't if" is the unclear part.

What's confusing? Read it in relation to the sentence I quoted that it's a reply to, the "it" is a reference to "unreasonable expectation" a fairly common way of phrasing a reply. But if you're still confused I'll rephrase it; "It isn't an unreasonable expectation (for someone to bring their child into a Christian church and not hear about Jesus in some way) if people experienced many church hall located events throughout their own childhood and teens and never heard about Jesus at them."

philologos

iguana wrote: »

I mean the ones that are well established in the areas.

The term seems a little vague. I'm wondering what you mean when you say "established churches" as opposed to some other churches which in your mind aren't "established"?

iguana wrote: »

What's confusing? Read it in relation to the sentence I quoted that it's a reply to, the "it" is a reference to "unreasonable expectation" a fairly common way of phrasing a reply. But if you're still confused I'll rephrase it; "It isn't an unreasonable expectation (for someone to bring their child into a Christian church and not hear about Jesus in some way) if people experienced many church hall located events throughout their own childhood and teens and never heard about Jesus at them."

The phrasing of the sentence seemed quite odd on reading but you've clarified it a lot.

I'm not surprised that many churches in Ireland did do other community functions as churches do all over the world. This by no means would cause me to be surprised that a church is willing to share about Jesus with all in the community.

A church is a Christian place of worship. One should have that in mind. There's not much grounds for complaining that someone heard about Jesus there.

alie

Denalihighway wrote: »

this is all very very interesting. thanks for your input Alie. i'm very to hear about your troubles.

if there's anything positive that can come out of this its that this crowd are already showing themselves to be the zealots we know they are. the sooner and more widely exposed they are the better.

the last thing we need is this thread being shut down or Boards.ie getting any legal threats so try and refrain from any unsubstantiated stuff but please keep us posted Alie! the fact that this thread comes up 2nd or 3rd in google searches for the church is simply marvelous so it is. lets keep it that way.

and also Alie, if VCF have any sense at all (I'll give them credit for not being completely insane), they'll be watching this thread so don't be showing your hand regarding court cases etc.

Its funny because im studying law at the moment, so they better watch out.

readthecontract

This is unbelievable! I live close to this church and am really angry that they <mod insert> allegedly </mod> assaulted children.

Misty Moon

philologos wrote: »

A church is a Christian place of worship. One should have that in mind. There's not much grounds for complaining that someone heard about Jesus there.

I believe the complaint was about someone who didn't want to listen to the preaching, decided to leave and was (allegedly) physically assaulted when they tried to do so. (I've added allegedly just in case because it was modded in in the comment above).

It wasn't a complaint about someone hearing about jesus although some surprise was expressed that after several weeks/months of nothing, they then started to preach.

philologos

Misty Moon wrote: »

I believe the complaint was about someone who didn't want to listen to the preaching, decided to leave and was (allegedly) physically assaulted when they tried to do so. (I've added allegedly just in case because it was modded in in the comment above).

It wasn't a complaint about someone hearing about jesus although some surprise was expressed that after several weeks/months of nothing, they then started to preach.

I doubt that is likely having heard a good bit of what Victory is like. You can see above that I'm not entirely supportive of Victory as a concept, but even if what you say was true, one should expect to hear about Christianity in a Christian church.

Misty Moon

philologos wrote: »

I doubt that is likely having heard a good bit of what Victory is like.

Can't comment on that as this is the first time I've heard of this group and centre and all I have to go on are the comments I have read above. It may be true, it may not be - if I did live in the area the fact that it's a christian centre would be enough to make me fairly inclined to stay away from it.

philologos wrote: »

... but even if what you say was true, one should expect to hear about Christianity in a Christian church.

But my point is merely that whether or not one should expect to hear about christianity in a christian church is irrelevant to the complaint being made above. Again, this is based purely on what I have read above - apologies if I have misunderstood.

philologos

It's relevant to your post in that you claim that they were allegedly surprised that they spoke about Jesus at a Christian church. See this quote here:

It wasn't a complaint about someone hearing about jesus although some surprise was expressed that after several weeks/months of nothing, they then started to preach.

Why surprise? - It's a good rule of thumb that if you don't want your child to hear anything about Jesus that you don't bring people to where He is honoured and praised.

Misty Moon

philologos wrote: »

It's relevant to your post in that you claim that they were allegedly surprised that they spoke about Jesus at a Christian church. See this quote here:


Why surprise? - It's a good rule of thumb that if you don't want your child to hear anything about Jesus that you don't bring people to where He is honoured and praised.

I'm honestly mystified by your response. All I wanted to do was, for the sake of clarity, point out that what you said in your earlier post "There's not much grounds for complaining that someone heard about Jesus there." didn't reflect what the actual grounds for complaining were.

MagicMarker

Misty Moon wrote: »

I'm honestly mystified by your response.

Get used to it.

Dades

^^ ROFL!

ceolte

There's some very interesting developments on this lately. Victory are now taking over a church in Galway that has a lot of controversy attached with the current pastors leaving amidst abuse and financial scandals. The sunday world did an expose last week on the church.

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/%E2%80%98cult%E2%80%99-pastor-texas-money-and-runs-by-jim-gallagher-sunday-world/

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/abundant-life-victory-and-possible-surrender-in-the-living-word/