Sir Hugh Orde Retires.

FTA69

Camelot wrote: »

Formerly known as 'Bandit country' ...............

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

Always known as Bandit Country where I'm from, and no, I was never stationed there.

FlutterinBantam

prinz wrote: »

Always known as Bandit Country where I'm from, and no, I was never stationed there.

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Don't have any links to it but definitely known as that.

Must be some reason why it got that reputation.

Sir Hugh was up against it there sure enough,but in time I suppose people like The Slab and his cohorts will be reeled in.

Difficult area to police I would imagine, given the vested interest in smuggling and lawlessness.

Rebelheart

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Don't have any links to it but definitely known as that.

Yeah, and the Irish were "definitely known" as ... where do I start ... "wilde savage Irishe" ... "barbarous wretches" ... "lacking in all civility" ....

Not forgetting those many absolute gems from Arthur Chichester (1563-1625) about the entire problem with the Irish being their love of liberty.

Because the people attempting to assert British control in Ireland claimed it, I guess that makes it true. It is absolutely amazing, and consistently so, how the people who deem themselves to be historically informed reject the myths of Irish nationalism and replace them with the myths of British nationalism which underpin British rule here. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, enlightened, educated or open-minded about that exchange.

Kalashnikov_Kid

People shout 'Bandit Country' at me when I tell them where I'm from, even though I'm not from South Armagh.

So if thats alright for people here, I'll shout 'Scumbag Country' every time I bump into any Dub that lives north of the Liffey - even if they live with mammy in Castleknock - sure thats the reputation like.

I fail to see the difference in using either term - in my view they're both equally derogatory.

MrMicra

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I don't think that anyone can deny that Orde was a "Good Cop" and did a difficult job very well.

The evidence presented in this thread suggests that while he may well have been a good cop he did a difficult job rather badly. He put himself forward for the job (which is very well paid) and a bare competence is the minimum to be expected.

MrMicra

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I don't think the poster was trying to make a Demi-God of Orde - just suggesting that a difficult job well done deserved some recognition.

Thats all.

The poster was spouting platitudes and had given no consideration at all to any objective assessment of Hugh Orde's performance.
Why is it a difficult job well done. It looks to me like a difficult job done badly. On the other hand it might actually be an impossible job.

FlutterinBantam

You are missing the point.

Sir Hugh oversaw the transition of the RUC to the PSNI and changed the mindset and mores of a force so that it could be accessed by all persuasions.

There are of course sever micro management issues and on the ground events to be ironed out and there is a ways to go, but on the macro deliniar issues he punched through the agreed policies.

FTA69

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Must be some reason why it got that reputation.

It was given that moniker as a result of the process of character assasination that took place during the conflict, the same way the people of West Belfast were blackened, or the people of Tyrone derided when they elected Bobby Sands; South Armagh was branded as Bandit Country. The only bandits in South Armagh were the ones running around with SA80s, the same bandits who for years occupied the corner of Crossmaglen's GAA ground and landed their helicopters in the pitch in order to disrupt games. The reason it got that "reputation" was because they ran the Brits ragged there, and nothing more.

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

People shout 'Bandit Country' at me when I tell them where I'm from, even though I'm not from South Armagh.

So again as much as some people would like to claim a distorted reality as truth, I think we can see here that in actual fact the term "bandit country" is in widespread usage, and not confined to those "stationed there". Shock horror. What next, Cork is only known as the "Rebel County" by west-brits and kevin myers?

Kalashnikov_Kid

prinz wrote: »

So again as much as some people would like to claim a distorted reality as truth, I think we can see here that in actual fact the term "bandit country" is in widespread usage, and not confined to those "stationed there". Shock horror. What next, Cork is only known as the "Rebel County" by west-brits and kevin myers?

I did not dispute the above. My point was that people tend to use it in a derogatory manner towards me that I find offensive. You're not really trying to compare that to the "Rebel County" are you? - nothing more than a GAA nickname in real terms - you dont hear Armagh shouting 'up the Bandits!' do you?!

Just because the term is in widespread use makes it right. "nigger" is used widely as a term. Should we bandy that one around too?

MrMicra

The term is in widespread use. I don't think the British Army meant it in a disparaging way more an admiring way, but they did use it to justify shoot to kill and the intense militarisation of the area.

The problem is that if a person from South Armagh complains someone else will roll their eyes and think 'Bandit Country what do you expect.' That said there has been alot of normalisation even in South Armagh and the desire of former IRA men to rely on the local Omerta to cover up criminality is on the way out. Though the willingness to go to the police the Quinn murder is exceptional and not something you find wrt cigarette smuggling or diesel washing.

Diesel washing should be hammered by the way it is massively polluting and not a victimless crime at all.

What is there to smuggle nowadays by the way?

prinz

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

I did not dispute the above. My point was that people tend to use it in a derogatory manner towards me that I find offensive....

MrMicra wrote: »

The term is in widespread use.

Exactly my point. Some of the more sensitive souls posting here like to indulge in an alternate reality where "bandit country" was used...

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh

.

Which is obviously false.

Kalashnikov_Kid

MrMicra wrote: »

Diesel washing should be hammered by the way it is massively polluting and not a victimless crime at all.

What is there to smuggle nowadays by the way?

Cigarettes, fireworks, counterfeit goods (there was a bust in a Drogheda market recently which could have been related to the area).

Yeah yeah I know what people are gonna say next....my point stands.

Is Stab City legitimate? Why not just say Limerick? Same goes for S.Armagh. Rub it in if it makes you feel smug, but do you guys not see the offense these terms cause and its consequences no?

prinz

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Is Stab City legitimate? Why not just say Limerick? Same goes for S.Armagh. Rub it in if it makes you feel smug, but do you guys not see the offense these terms cause and its consequences no?

Smugness has nothing to do with anything. Fact does. I'm sorry if terms like "bandit country" cause offence, I am sure there are some people offended by the terms culchie, or jackeen, or stab city etc. Does that mean they all have to be erased from the Hiberno-English vocabulary. Yes the term is widespread, regardless of it's effect or connotations.

Kalashnikov_Kid

prinz wrote: »

Smugness has nothing to do with anything. Fact does. I'm sorry if terms like "bandit country" cause offence, I am sure there are some people offended by the terms culchie, or jackeen, or stab city etc. Does that mean they all have to be erased from the Hiberno-English vocabulary. Yes the term is widespread, regardless of it's effect or connotations.

Fair enough. I for one would always think twice in chucking such terms around in public - maybe internet fora are a different story. It would be nice if more people showed such courtesy.

LordSutch

Interesting collection of flags :rolleyes:



I think Sir Hugh Ord did a sterling job during his tenure as Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He tried despirately to introduce a non sectarian climate into the Police force, he spoke to all & sundry from sides, and from all backgrounds (ex Provo's inc), he spoke well in front of the cameras, he was by all accounts liked by his colleagues too, he also got on very well with the Garda in the South > and he was liked/ loathed in equal amounts by both sides of the equation (which is always a good sign).

All in all I think Sir Hugh did a good job in taking Policing in the North to a more 'normal' level, & hopefully his successor will continue to build on his good work in normalising & harmonising Policing in Northern Ireland.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Camelot wrote: »

Interesting collection of flags :rolleyes:

Maybe you could stick up a Union Jack and an Isreali flag for a bit of equal measure. Actually how about you just stick me on your ignore list and they wont bother you anymore. I have done likewise. Thanks for making this decision easy for me.

FlutterinBantam

It's amazing how some people cannot understand the contrary point of view.

Sir Hugh did a lot to embrace the nationalist fears and problems.

His tenure is all the more laudable,considering the polarisation of views even on fora like this.

It would sometimes appear that people like to feel oppressed as it gives them a quasi license to cheat the "State".

Interesting views indeed.

sceptre

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Actually how about you just stick me on your ignore list and they wont bother you anymore. I have done likewise. Thanks for making this decision easy for me.

I don't particularly care about the contents of your ignore list but don't waste the world's time by telling everyone you're putting another member on ignore, just do it if you feel like it and have shut of it.

/mod

Kalashnikov_Kid

sceptre wrote: »

I don't particularly care about the contents of your ignore list but don't waste the world's time by telling everyone you're putting another member on ignore, just do it if you feel like it and have shut of it.

/mod

He is actually the first poster to have the privilege - if it is not the done thing to openly discuss such things then I do apologise - I didn't see anything mentioned in the charter regarding such matters

DoireNod

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

It's amazing how some people cannot understand the contrary point of view.

I don't think it's a case of where people 'cannot understand the contrary point of view'. Rather, they cannot understand the point of view that he should be praised in what is such a hyperbolic manner. I think most people would accept that Orde may have been competent in his role, but there are a lot of valid criticisms too. Maybe you can't see or understand that? Your OP was written with language which seemed to express a reverence for this man. You'll have to accept that it genuinely comes across to some people as probing for a response from nationalists or others who have actual gripes with the police service in the North.

Sir Hugh did a lot to embrace the nationalist fears and problems.

He had to. Any other person who was in his position would have had to aswell. It isn't necessarily something to be commended for being original and bold, it's something that was long overdue and was expected.

His tenure is all the more laudable,considering the polarisation of views even on fora like this.

How so?

It would sometimes appear that people like to feel oppressed as it gives them a quasi license to cheat the "State".

I don't think so. That seems like a bit of an overstatement.

Interesting views indeed.

Yes, quite.

FlutterinBantam

There was no attempt at hyperbole in my opening post.

It was posted on the day I heard of his retirement on the radio, and I had heard many interviews with him over his period in charge.

I was always struck by his fairness and honesty in those interviews and felt that perhaps a difficult job in a difficult time when completed might be recognised.

Coming after the punters who preceded him that was a welcome breath of fresh air in my opinion.

I fully realise that everything is not rosy in the PSNI and that certain issues still exist but I felt and still feel that Sir Hugh pushed out the boat at a difficult time in the face of a lot of opposition from vested interests and deserved some plaudits.

MrMicra

Camelot wrote: »

Interesting collection of flags :rolleyes:



I think Sir Hugh Ord did a sterling job during his tenure as Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He tried despirately to introduce a non sectarian climate into the Police force, he spoke to all & sundry from sides, and from all backgrounds (ex Provo's inc), he spoke well in front of the cameras, he was by all accounts liked by his colleagues too, he also got on very well with the Garda in the South > and he was liked/ loathed in equal amounts by both sides of the equation (which is always a good sign).

All in all I think Sir Hugh did a good job in taking Policing in the North to a more 'normal' level, & hopefully his successor will continue to build on his good work in normalising & harmonising Policing in Northern Ireland.

Ex provos are in government it would be grounds for instant dismissal if he would not speak to them.

It is unsurprising that policing in the north is more normal as the IRA have demilitarised. Sir Hugh's role in this process was minimal. On the day that Kevin McDaid was murdered police in Coleraine were busily removing Tricolours. Relations between the Garda Siochana and the RUC were always cordial, this is not indicative of any special ability.

Ronnie Flanagan was a good communicator but left Sir Hugh a poisonous legacy, unfortunately Sir Hugh has failed to confront the Continuity RUC in the ranks of the PSNI. It is hardly surprising that Sir Hugh is less of a bigot than Ronnie Flanagan given Flanagan's collusion with the UVF and the fact that his incompetence led directly to the rebranding of the RUC.

Sir Hugh didn't do a good job by any objective measure. We must set higher standards, we can not simply affirm that every chief constable is great no matter how bad a job he does. I hope that Matt Baggott does a better job than Sir Hugh.

I would like to see your evidence that Sir Hugh was liked/ loathed in equal measure by all sides, however only criminals should loathe policemen. For a chief constable to be loathed by people who are not criminals is a further indicator that he did a bad job.

He has had 7 years.

FlutterinBantam

MrMicra wrote: »

I would like to see your evidence that Sir Hugh was liked/ loathed in equal measure by all sides, however only criminals should loathe policemen. For a chief constable to be loathed by people who are not criminals is a further indicator that he did a bad job.

He has had 7 years.

Not in my opinion

ardmacha

That said there has been alot of normalisation even in South Armagh

There has. But there will never be full support for civil policing if the authorities continue to engage in political policing.

FlutterinBantam

Yes, would have to agree with that sentiment.

LordSutch

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Maybe you could stick up a Union Jack and an Isreali flag for a bit of equal measure. Actually how about you just stick me on your ignore list and they wont bother you anymore. I have done likewise. Thanks for making this decision easy for me.

Bloody hell Kalashnikov, what sparked that off (but they are an interesting collection of flags)!

I always got the impression that Sir Hugh was the first Police Chief who broke the mould, he was an outsider (from England) he could say & do things a local man could not > and one way or another 'I still think' he was a breath of fresh air .........

But that's just my opinion.

gurramok

Outside intervention seems to helps matters progress up north, long may it continue.