Carling Cup 2nd Round [including West Ham vs Millwall violence]

String

therecklessone wrote: »

With all due respect, there is nothing you've said there that preludes them also attending games on a regular basis.

Anyone who clings to the claim that people involved in crowd disorder at football games are not real fans is deluding themselves. I'm sure if OPENROAD has been in the away section at White Hart Lane he can attest to the venomous atmosphere post-game as the home fans stream past the away entrance and the Arsenal fans await their escort. We don't get a couple of thousand day trippers over for an off, they are regular fans who go week in, week out.

I've seen the same replicated at West Ham, Chelsea, Man Utd, Boro, I've mised Stoke, Burnley and Cardiff cos of personal reasons...I've heard of similar at Birmingham, Villa, Pompey, Wolves.

I know one or two lads to see from Spurs, and I can count the number of games they miss a season on one hand.

West Ham is a family club. Mainly members and season ticket holders who go week in week out with their kids. Tickets did go on general sale as people knew this was going to happend and decided not to go. The club were stupid to do this but it was always going to happen if members were not buying. In future this game should be played behind closed doors.

Mint Sauce

therecklessone wrote: »

I would say that is less likely, this game is the holy grail for many West Ham fans, and there is no chance the club allowed this game go to general sale. On top of that, anybody with a current banning order wouldn't have had a hope of getting in.

I'd say the majority of the pitch invaders are regulars at the Boelyn.

from the BBC report

Five arrests have been confirmed, including one for affray and one for breaching a banning order.

although it does not say if this arrest was inside or outside the stadium

either way it a sad day for football in england and one that i did not think i would see again, unfortunatly a minority have brought the game into disrepute and shame on the well behaved west ham and millwall fans

The Muppet

therecklessone wrote: »

Tom, celebrating a goal in front of Millwall fans is like flicking lit matches into a powderkeg...not very smart behaviour, and he should get his wrists smacked for it.

Maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do given the atmosphere at the time but I don't agree that he should be punished for it Ronan. It will be a sad day for football if that happens IMO.

Chucky the tree

DrMorphine wrote: »

There are 1000 riot police as well as the extra metro police that will be there for tonight so im amazed so much trouble outside the game is going on. Altough I heard it didnt happen till the gates seperating the fans was barged down.

cleary not enough. How they didn't make sure the pitch was ringed by stewards following the first pitch invasion to make sure it didn't happen again is stupid. Seems to be a very poor effort on West hams part.

Mr.Nice Guy

Just saw some of the images. Terrible stuff. Feel sorry for the parents with kids there.

What is it about our sport that attracts these kinds of idiots whereas the likes of rugby generally have far more well behaved supporters?

Chucky the tree

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Just saw some of the images. Terrible stuff. Feel sorry for the parents with kids there.

What is it about our sport that attracts these kinds of idiots whereas the likes of rugby generally have far more well behaved supporters?

Working class sport = scum following.

ShamoBuc

A bit of a broad generalisation there , don't you think?

stovelid

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Working class sport = scum following.

Where does that leave everybody on this forum?

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Working class sport = scum following.

In fairness football is the sport of everybody these days-working class, middle, celebrities and scubags, in fact always was but the scum were aloud to run amuck. You don't see it in other sports because the lowest of the low don't follow it because those sports aren't as big and are flushed out quicker.

NufcNavan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Just saw some of the images. Terrible stuff. Feel sorry for the parents with kids there.

What is it about our sport that attracts these kinds of idiots whereas the likes of rugby generally have far more well behaved supporters?

Because most supporters of rugby are posh knobs.

CHD

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Just saw some of the images. Terrible stuff. Feel sorry for the parents with kids there.

What is it about our sport that attracts these kinds of idiots whereas the likes of rugby generally have far more well behaved supporters?

What kind of idiotic parent brings their kid to West Ham -v- Millwall ?

Chucky the tree

ShamoBuc wrote: »

A bit of a broad generalisation there , don't you think?

Yes, but still pretty much spot on. The majority of football fans are working class, most scumabgs are working class. I mean I doubt the majority of the 60 fans who ran onto the pitch tonight where Doctors, lawyers etc etc While it not all down to working class, the whole soccer mentality has to take the blame. It's sport where there is zero respect shown for officials from players so why should we expect fans to respect each other?

UnitedIrishman

Daftness of the highest order at Upton Park. Think there needs to be some banning orders and fines thrown around the place. What a silly boy Junior Stanislas (sp?) is. On another note, fair play to Jack Collison for playing. Can't have been easy given his circumstances and it obviously just shows what the derby means.

Question.. is Chris Kirkland a closet West Ham fan?

Soby

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

.

And who the hell is over dressed guy?

Soby

dfx- wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209028/BREAKING-NEWS-Man-stabbed-West-Ham-Millwall-fans-brawl-outside-stadium.html

That end of Upton Park is a warren outside isn't it? Plenty of places where ticket-less Millwall fans could meet some like-minded Wham fans..

Those on the pitch probably haven't been inside the ground for a million years but were attracted to this match and got tickets somehow, so harsh to punish the clubs...

Haha the 3 fat fookers..I dunno why but i cant stop laughing

bUILDERtHEbOB

Made me LOL.

therecklessone

DrMorphine wrote: »

West Ham is a family club. Mainly members and season ticket holders who go week in week out with their kids. Tickets did go on general sale as people knew this was going to happend and decided not to go. The club were stupid to do this but it was always going to happen if members were not buying. In future this game should be played behind closed doors.

Family club? Excuse me while I ROFL, very family-friendly atmosphere last time I was down your way, did all the families stay away that night as well? The Boleyn is a horrible place to visit if you are Spurs, very intimidating.

I'll take your word for it on the general sale though how that got past Old Bill I'll never know, when our away allocation went on general sale for last week we had to have a booking history with the club before they'd sell.

It will be interesting to see how many current members/ST holders get banned as a result of last night, that mob in the bottom left corner can't all have been in on their first trip...

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes, but still pretty much spot on. The majority of football fans are working class, most scumabgs are working class. I mean I doubt the majority of the 60 fans who ran onto the pitch tonight where Doctors, lawyers etc etc

Perhaps you need to do a bit more research on the demographics of those involved in football violence, you'll find a wide mix of professions including plenty of city boys and solicitors.

Lads, can we tone down the rhetoric and language please, I know there's nobody who feels offended by harsh language aimed at hooligans or drunks taking advantage of over-stretched security staff, but before somebody says something they regret...ta.

therecklessone

irish-stew wrote: »

although it does not say if this arrest was inside or outside the stadium

A lot of old boys came out of retirement last night I'd imagine, doesn't mean any got into the ground (banning orders cover a radius around the ground IIRC)

The purpose of football banning orders is to prevent known football hooligans from causing further trouble at home and abroad. Bans last between 2 and 10 years, and the precise conditions can be tailored on a case-by-case basis.

If necessary, the courts can ban recipients from using public transport on match days, and from visiting other potential ‘hotspots’, such as town centres, pubs and bars during risk periods.

Same happened when Spurs went to Cardiff two seasons ago.

Iago

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Working class sport = scum following.

Decent read I thought http://champpenal.revues.org/document71.html

an excerpt from the piece

Revues.org wrote:

The origins of hooliganism
A brief historical reminder is called for here. The introduction of the notion of hooliganism corresponds to a change of paradigm. The notion developed in Great Britain in the 1960s, marking the shift from ritualized, Dionysian violence applied to the logic of the game to premeditated, organized violence. The word itself, hooligan, was coined by a journalist who played on the name of a particularly violent Irish family of the Victorian era – the Hoolihans – to designate the violent behavior then observed. After the word-play, a printing error slipped in, replacing the h by a g, the two letters being side by side on the keyboard, and the term hooliganism was born. For the anecdote, only the French, Belgians and German still use the term, while English-speakers prefer to speak of thugs, a word that also designates a bloodthirsty Indian sect worshipping Kali, so this is a many-sided allusion, and a stigmatizing word in itself. Acts of hooliganism were studied, essentially in the English-speaking countries, the first to experience this kind of problem, successively in terms of modifications in the social space of the stadium (Ehrenberg, 1991; Sansot, 1990), of the growing autonomy of youth in the 1950-1960s, of the development of youth cultures or subcultures (roughs, skinheads, punks and so on), of the destructuring of the working class (Taylor, 1971; Clarcke, 1973) and as the outcome of the segmental bonding produced by the social functioning of the working class (Elias and Dunning, 1986), and last, the extension of the phenomenon to the rest of Europe by imitation, following the dramatic events at the Heysel stadium in 1985. Hooliganism is too often analyzed, then, like ordinary delinquency, exclusively in terms of social determinism: exclusion alone cannot account for delinquency and deviant behavior. It is only one risk factor among others. It is only “when social disadvantages accumulate – low family income, deteriorated housing and neighborhood, large family – that a significant statistical correlation is found between poverty and delinquency” (Filleule, 2001, 66).

String

therecklessone wrote: »

Family club? Excuse me while I ROFL, very family-friendly atmosphere last time I was down your way, did all the families stay away that night as well? The Boleyn is a horrible place to visit if you are Spurs, very intimidating.

Theres a difference between banter and hooliganism. Obviously its going to be intimitading, doesnt mean your going to get stabbed. I dont see spurs as a main rial or anything, like most west ham fans dont. And the same goes for spurs fans. Ive never seen much incidents when at spurs games besides the odd few you get at everygame that is usally drink related. Metro presence is very strong after everygame.

Het-Field

therecklessone wrote: »

Family club? Excuse me while I ROFL, very family-friendly atmosphere last time I was down your way, did all the families stay away that night as well? The Boleyn is a horrible place to visit if you are Spurs, very intimidating.

I'll take your word for it on the general sale though how that got past Old Bill I'll never know, when our away allocation went on general sale for last week we had to have a booking history with the club before they'd sell.

It will be interesting to see how many current members/ST holders get banned as a result of last night, that mob in the bottom left corner can't all have been in on their first trip...



Perhaps you need to do a bit more research on the demographics of those involved in football violence, you'll find a wide mix of professions including plenty of city boys and solicitors.

Lads, can we tone down the rhetoric and language please, I know there's nobody who feels offended by harsh language aimed at hooligans or drunks taking advantage of over-stretched security staff, but before somebody says something they regret...ta.

Then I suggest you dont visit if you find it intimidating. I suppose Spurs fans only feel truly happy when their management is tapping up, and unsettelling every player in the Premiership. Last week several Spurs fans joined the plethora of West Ham fans in the que for the Tube, and there was good natured discussion between both sets of supports about the game.

I have always found West Ham to be a very family orienteered club, and with the exception of last night, I have never seen such an event occur, which all began as a result of Milwall fans charging the police cordon at the start. Equally, Neil Harris's celebration was just as incitory as Junior Stanislas's.

With the exception of what went on outside the ground, it has become apparent that it was mostly kids who were charging the pitch as a result of the security staff making their way down to the Trevor Brooking Stand, leaving the Bobby Moore stand unguarded. The actions of the one or two older folks who should have known better, should not be used as a brush to tar all West Ham fans.

What occured outside the ground is a different story.

NaiveMelodies

Attendances should go up across britain and ireland with lots of yobs turning up expecting a fight, thanks to last night, which can only mean more cash for clubs.

dannydiamond

CHD wrote: »

What kind of idiotic parent brings their kid to West Ham -v- Millwall ?

As much as I hate to agree with CHD:),why in the name of god would you bring your kids to this particular match?

I'm also surprised at alot of seasoned supporters 'shocked' and surprised by what went on last night, jebus I would have been shocked if something like this didn't happen tbh, it's West Ham v Millwall ffs, the police and the clubs should have been all over this before it even started.

Handsome Bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes, but still pretty much spot on. The majority of football fans are working class, most scumabgs are working class. I mean I doubt the majority of the 60 fans who ran onto the pitch tonight where Doctors, lawyers etc etc While it not all down to working class, the whole soccer mentality has to take the blame. It's sport where there is zero respect shown for officials from players so why should we expect fans to respect each other?

Absolute tosh, I suggest you watch documentaries or films based on hooliganism. Sure, there is an element that is "scum" from impoverished backgrounds, but there is also an element that are 9 to 5 middle class boys who wear their suits by day, and then throw on their "casual" gear by night.

To see the type of generalisations that you make absolutely infuriates me.

dannydiamond

Jim Whites take on things.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/jim-white/article/11255/

CHD

dannydiamond wrote: »

As much as I hate to agree with CHD:),why in the name of god would you bring your kids to this particular match?

I'm also surprised at alot of seasoned supporters 'shocked' and surprised by what went on last night, jebus I would have been shocked if something like this didn't happen tbh, it's West Ham v Millwall ffs, the police and the clubs should have been all over this before it even started.

Just don't start a fight with me Mr.Danny please

cruiserweight

Might be off topic but an interesting blog post on BBC, also links to stats from the UK Home Office on arrests and banning orders per club over the last few years http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olliewilliams/2009/08/how_violent_your_teams_fans_ar.shtml

dannydiamond

CHD wrote: »

Just don't start a fight with me Mr.Danny please

You're well down the list,your time will come though.:pac:

Leejo

Ah sure it's nothing compared to the massive hooligan problem the LOI have? I wonder will tv3 make a documentary out of this? Hmmmm...

I think every person with some common sense and their dog knew there was going to be trouble, ok not quite as large scale as this, but there was bound to be a little more fighting than your at your average match. Only difference is usually at games around England they usually have the common sense to do their knuckle dragging away from the ground.

Any word on any backlash for Millwall? Kicked out of league cup? Matches played behind closed doors?

herbieflowers

I think it could have been a whole lot worse but for the police, 13 arrests isn't too bad considering.

Leejo

Bandit12 wrote: »

Dark day for football.

Get off it. Why is it a dark day for football? Open your eyes worse things happen at football matches around the world everyday but just cos this happens in England it's a dark day for football?
edit-

Edit- in no way am I condoning any actions taken by Millwall or West ham fans.

Mmcd

Leejo wrote: »

Ah sure it's nothing compared to the massive hooligan problem the LOI have? I wonder will tv3 make a documentary out of this? Hmmmm...

I think every person with some common sense and their dog knew there was going to be trouble, ok not quite as large scale as this, but there was bound to be a little more fighting than your at your average match. Only difference is usually at games around England they usually have the common sense to do their knuckle dragging away from the ground.

Any word on any backlash for Millwall? Kicked out of league cup? Matches played behind closed doors?

Yeah they've been kicked out of the league cup alright, dunno about anything else!

Sparks43

dfx- wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209028/BREAKING-NEWS-Man-stabbed-West-Ham-Millwall-fans-brawl-outside-stadium.html

That end of Upton Park is a warren outside isn't it? Plenty of places where ticket-less Millwall fans could meet some like-minded Wham fans..

Those on the pitch probably haven't been inside the ground for a million years but were attracted to this match and got tickets somehow, so harsh to punish the clubs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMCnqyhdEUw

:D

therecklessone

Het-Field wrote: »

Then I suggest you dont visit if you find it intimidating. I suppose Spurs fans only feel truly happy when their management is tapping up, and unsettelling every player in the Premiership.

No, I feel happy when I can go to a game without feeling I am about to get a clump off some oaf who takes exception to the team I support, and I think every other fan should be able to feel the same, including at WHL.

I also take exception to being called a "filthy Jew", I take exception to people making hissing noises at me, or singing "Spurs are on the way to Auschwitz".

therecklessone

Making do with d'wireless for the Doncaster-Spurs game, Donny sound dangerous and have forced two good saves out of Cudicini.

Crouch and Pvlyuchenko up front so not much pace for the break.

therecklessone

Huddlestone scores after a mistake at the back for Donny, 1-0 Spurs.

therecklessone

O'Hara makes it 2-0.

therecklessone

Good article on last night

Mikeyt086

therecklessone wrote: »

Crouch and Pvlyuchenko up front so not much pace for the break.

Seems that Harry has left himself with 2 options up front:

a) Pace - Defoe & Keane
b) Sheer arial domination - Crouch & Pavlyuchenko

Of course he could mix and match aswell. Spurs really do have an exellent squad this season.

therecklessone

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Seems that Harry has left himself with 2 options up front:

a) Pace - Defoe & Keane
b) Sheer arial domination - Crouch & Pavlyuchenko

Of course he could mix and match aswell. Spurs really do have an exellent squad this season.

Weak in middle and left of midfield.

3-0 Crouch

Wigan have collapsed away to Blackpool, 3-0 down.

therecklessone

Fúcking hell, Spurs running amuck...4-0 Bentley sounds like a cracker.

Donny fans making a real racket, sounds like a cracking atmosphere.

therecklessone

Boateng on, first touch is a handball in the box, Donny convert the pen to make it 4-1 Spurs.

Eire-Dearg

Jerome Boateng, is he still there?

Good to see Huddlestone scoring, I'm a fan.

The Muppet

therecklessone wrote: »

Weak in middle and left of midfield.

They are not alone there, with the exception of Chelsea and possibly City all the teams have weak areas this season

therecklessone

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

Jerome Boateng, is he still there?

Kevin Prinz. German gansta' type.

Donny hit the woodwork, sounds like a cracking game.

therecklessone

Pavlyuchenko!!! 5-1, he's only needed about 6 chances.

kinaldo

Mayhem at St. James'...

1-3 to 3-3, Krul not living up to previous standards by the sounds of things.

kinaldo

4-3 toon woop! Sounds like Shola Gola Ameobi again!

Eire-Dearg

Carlton Cole on racist abuse:

"I dont care. I know I'm not a monkey. I might be as strong as a gorilla, but I'm not a monkey!"